pros and cons of 36 inch kits handling characteristics

It's basically what you would expect, it tips easier, good in powder/when you want it, bad on trails. Over all I think it's a good change, I don't spend much time on trails.

I just put the zbroz kit on mine, I figure I will have fun cornering but should make the rest of the ride great. Seems that the bigger riders I've talked to don't like it.

just do it, unless you spend half the day on trail, get alt impact and keep the sway bar

ullose272 said:

just do it, unless you spend half the day on trail, get alt impact and keep the sway bar

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If your going to make the sled narrower and easier to tip on its side. Why would you keep the antiroll bar (sway bar ) ?

The swaybar can do a lot of good things, IMO.

Compressing and "squatting" a sled to one side is different than having a sled "On Edge"

From an earlier thread I put up...Some similarities with this thread.

Here is my take on the subject. (copy/paste from other thread)

MY OPINION>>> there are others that ride without that prefer it... Which is OK too.

This is IMO...

Here are some things that I learned that worked for me and made for less effort riding for my style of riding. I was excited to to learn this and thought I would pass on an experience that made my riding better. There are many better riders out there than me... many of them have a different style all their own that works very well for them.

Keep it. On the Pro... definitely.

Here is an adaptation of a post I put up a while back.

Before you may get all riled up… I do believe that you can get good performance from the sleds without a swaybar… but your shocks will need to be re-sprung/valved. I've had a PRO with my dialed in $1500 Fox EVOL-X's on it and I did like it... but that is an expensive shock with a lot of time in the 5 different adjustments those shocks have.

This conversation is for the "Average Joe/Josephine" that does not have upgraded shocks or years of riding experience.

With the PRO Chassis ... With stock shocks...with the sway bar out... for the most part…. you are really not getting the sled "on edge" even though it may feel like it...You are compressing the front shock and flexing the track.

Many people have this misconception…. I Did too (until I worked with Dan Adams on my technique)

When the shock is collapsed, there is little travel remaining to deal with rough terrain or crusty snow. Even more evident on a steep side hill when the body panels are riding deep in the snow and want to push you back down the hill…much less evident on a PRO RMK than the Previous models.... usually resulting in a roll over or requiring that you turn down the hill and going, usually, where you don’t want to go.

Truly getting the sled "on edge" DOES require more effort (to learn) and balance... It takes a practice to get comfortable with it... but the efforts over a few days of riding will, IMO, transform your riding. Once you "get it"... there is not much effort to the tequnique and you don't get tired on long sidehills.

With the proper swaybar OR new shocks that are valved and sprung for no swaybar... the sled will get up on edge well and hold a line without the shock collapsing on a steep sidehill... and kept the travel in the shock to deal with terrain and not get bucked back down the hill...Nor buck you off when doing powder carves in a meadow.

Yes, you can throw it around easier without the swaybar out...BUT... this is a dead-giveaway that you need to work on your riding techniques...In most cases.

I had the same misunderstanding and needed to work on it. This is the key to better riding on a Mountain sled IMO.

Cranking up the preload on the spring or putting more air in the shock is not the answer either as you can get into coil bind or the air-shock does not want to compress fully and gets super stiff… especially in the standard floats. Plus… this throws off the engineered balance of the sled as it increases the ride heigh of the sled... though some people adapt to it.

In the end... it boils down to practice... get into a packed out field and spend the day getting and keeping your sled on edge in left and right turns. Throttle control is important here too. Sometimes, like for me, it took an hour of literally walking next to my sled with it on edge and controlling the throttle, skis and balance of the sled before I could ride it that way.

You should be able to ride on one ski indefinitely, with little effort, once you have perfected the technique.

My 2 cents.

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Have a look at this video...

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Rasmussen at :50 and Whelpton at 1:39

You can see that the sled is on edge as compared to having the shock compressed on that side... This allows the shock to still have travel to do work if you hit irregularities in the snow.

It is more work to learn it... but worth it IMO.

Have a look at this one...

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at :28 , :48 1:13, 1:18 ... you will see that on the extreme sidehill... the uphill front suspension is basically still fully extended... the sled is on Edge... not "squatted" on that side.

THEN, FINALLY HAVE A LOOK AT THIS ONE...

Bret, at 1:54 seconds... "bumps" the tree on an extreme sidehill... the shock/suspension absorb the impact and then extends agian... If the shock was "squatted" on that side.. there would have been effectively no travel left to deal with that obstacle and he would have been bucked down the hill.... Pretty amazing move!! :face-icon-small-sho

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Took me awhile over the last few years to understand what MH was explaining, since he's been explaining it for a while now,,I leave my swaybar hooked up, it's better that way!

MH I here the point your trying to put across,and yes in extremely rough terrain while sidehilling having the sway bar gives gives you double the spring pressure.
The question was about low snow conditions. So again to answer the question. If your trying to make your Pro feel less planted in low snow conditions, get the 36" arms a ditch the ANTI ROLL bar.... By the way MH I ran exits dual rate springs on the stock 13 WE shocks,(never had any bottoming problems) this year Im trying there Exit shock that are valved and sprung for the 36" arms.. The biggest part of his question was snow condition. On the other hand if it is 3FT of fresh powder and your the first one thru it doesn't matter what you have upfront

This is a great discussion... And I sincerely am just participating in that discussion... meaning NO disrespect to your points.

IMO... the point I'm proposing is more prevalent in low snow conditions.

If you are on a low snow sidehill, with the sled "squatted" on one side because you have pulled the swaybar or have lower force springs (or you are heavy/big rider), Your track is still on edge, but now you have used up most of your suspension travel on that side.

I don't believe that Rasmussen even has a swaybar on that Cat M-8T when he "bumps" that tree at 1:54 in the vid. The point is not about the swaybar... it's about "squatting the front end". There is a good chance that that the Dual-Rate Z-Broz springs that you ran last year have a stiffer overall rate than the stock 100-lb Polaris springs.

I talked with Nate and Ryan from Z-Broz earlier this year, in detail, about this topic.

If they are building you custom shocks for your sled and you are NOT running a sway bar (a question they will ask you when you get a custom configuration)... they will put in stiffer springs than if you ARE running a sway bar.

The factory Assault-RMK has stiffer springs (130-lb) than the PRO-RMK (100-lb)... the assault has NO swaybar... the PRO-RMK does. The increased spring rate compensates for the 25-30lbs of resistance that the front end looses per side when you pull the swaybar.

Like I said above.. you can set it up for use without a sway bar... and it WILL be a great setup... I'm sure that is what you go in your new custom shocks from Z-Broz.. and you will really like the ride.

A swaybar also introduces a spring rate in and of itself...that is what adds the force when you move one A-arm and not the other.... it flexes and has it's own torsional resistance that is Less than the shock spring. If you wanted to see this... Suspend the front of the sled, leave the swaybar hooked up, pull the shock from one side, have someone steady the sled, and lift up on that side... you will see the sway bar flex but you will not compress the other shock. In a Side/Side suspension compression event, the swaybar adds a certain amount of resistance but no where near "double" the force of the shock spring on one side. In a frontal suspension event that compresses both shocks (like crossing a creek bed or hitting a "whoop" in a trail)... the swaybar does not introduce more force into the suspension as it rotates in the saddles almost evenly on both sides.

A stock PRO RMK with the swaybar will be more "plush"... than an Assault, without the swaybar, on a whooped trail. Within the limits of the travel as the PRO -RMK will bottom out faster because the PRO-RMK has less spring force... once it bottoms out, it WILL get pretty harsh as it has now run out of "spring".


Just some food for thought.




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The PRO's of the 36" wide front are that it is easier to truly get onto edge...The con is that it is less stable of a sled and you loose a hair of vertical travel. To what degree you notice that depends on the type of terrain you ride, your skill level, size and height.

RMSHA guys like wide front ends for the most part... trail riders do as well as big huckers/droppers. And yes, I know that some people with high skill levels may chime in and say they like as narrow as possible and notice NO difference in ANY situation. I'm not in that skill bracket and do notice it though I'm a dropper or hucker.

One other thing that can play into the cons is on really steep sidehills in dense snow (spring or coastal snow)... Where you will loose uphill "anchor" of the ski as you pull your ski in closer to the body-work of the sled. (look at it as an outrigger). Granted, you are talking about a much steeper side hill than I'll probably take.

I'll be trying the 36" front on my sled this year... as well as stock width... so I'll be able to see the diff. I like the feel of the 36" equipped sled I borrowed last year late season...It was much more easy to maneuver in the trees and on off camber situations.

The 36" allows you get your sled on edge easier without "squatting" the front end...



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Im a listening to what your saying. I do respect your knowledge and your input on different projects. On this front I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. My home ground is the Sea 2 Sky corridor so let me say I've had my fair share of slugging concrete. I find that on very steep sidehills looking for that anchor from the uphill ski having a Carls cut really helps. As far as better ride from a sway bar suspension vs a non on a whooped out trail. Look at Trophy trucks. In a properly designed suspension a anti roll bar (sway bar) is designed to one thing. Anti roll. As far as trail manners a 36" front end with no sway bar is a absolute handful at speed. I dirt bike in the summer so I'm used to standing and moving the machine underneath me. If you want to sit down and go fast,then probably not the best choice.

I think you should tell Mark Holz he would get a better ride, if you used a sway bar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEbfteUIkYU
Maybe not

Again...Great discussion.

We actually do agree...but we are looking at it differently.

My point really is NOT "Swaybar or NO swaybar" it is really... To "squat" or "Not to squat" the front end when pulling the sled on edge.

Sierra Cement or California Concrete is what I ride most often, unfortunately... similar to what you have in Whistler...but you have more pow for sure.

Last season, you ran the Z-Broz springs, no swaybar (more overall spring force than stock 100#'r)

This season, you are running a full Z-Broz package, no swaybar (more overall spring force than stock 100#'r)

One of the many questions that Z-Broz asks when they custom tailor your shocks is weather or not you plan to run a swaybar... your spring package will then be setup using that information as a factor in spring selection.

If you've removed the swaybar, but added more overall spring to each side... it will be netting you the SAME end result when you yank the sled up on edge. If you have NOT added more overall spring and removed the swaybar, you will be squatting the sled, giving up your suspension travel in the front and putting the nose/body of the sled down into the snow more.

I've had great discussions about this with Mark Holz, Nate/Ryan Zollinger, the engineers at Polaris, etc.
"If you pull the swaybar... add more spring." ... was the consensus.

A sled with 100# springs will be more plush, with or without a swaybar than a sled with 130# springs, with or without a swaybar going down the trail through the whoops up to the point where the shocks bottom out with equal quality valving respecting the spring forces in each.

Nor am I saying that you can't get a great ride without a sway bar. But you have to have it set up for that, like you did last season and you will again this year with your new exits. Your setup, without a swaybar, will probably be as stiff, each side, as one with a swaybar and lower force springs. You sled will not "squat" to one side when you reef it over any easier than a stock sled with stock shocks and weaker, stock, springs and a swaybar.

My point about running a swaybar holds, IMO, for a PRO RMK/RMK with stock springs or an aftermarket set of shocks with 100# springs (or lower air pressures on a Float)

With the FLOATS, If you pull the swaybar... Having one with the EVOL chamber is really a must so you can run stiffer main spring pressures without getting harsh towards the end of the shocks travel.

IMO, still, if you have STOCK 100# springs and you pull the swaybar so "you can sidehill better" you are in fact "squatting the front end" and not really doing anything productive.

A 36" front end will allow you to get it on edge more easily.




I'm not talking about better rides... nor trophy trucks that have insane amounts of travel. Trophy trucks ride through the desert at speed they way they do because they have in excess of 30" travel... Crazy.

Comparing that to a sled is like comparing algebra to chewing bubble gum, IMO.
UTV's as well.... Sleds are often more like a stand up jetski than a 4 wheel vehicle.
You don't actively navigate, as part of your daily regimen, a trophy truck or Holz equipped UTV with it "On Edge". Though, Yes... the UTV vid shows him getting a RZR on two wheels... kinda like Schwartzeneger in Twins...But that is not part of most extreme UTV driving.



Trophy trucks are super cool though... I remember going down to San Felipe for the SCORE races 25 years ago... and having a blast with test drives in the Class-8 Heavy metal trucks.... crazy to see where they've gone now!

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have a question on theory.

Background: When I rode my short track XLT on West Mountain in '99 I was riding with a guy that had a '98 700 RMK. On a long diagonal sidehill at WOT I wanted to pull my sled up on edge so that I could stand up better. When I did, the sled would actually slow down compared to the 700. When I would lower the sled back over to put more track in the snow, it would keep up with the 700.

Question: In lower snow conditions, with a wider front and a rider pulling the sled up on "Edge", does this actually take track lugs out of service and put more bite or pressure on the rear of the skid where there is full contact in the snow? Would the sled not have better overall traction or thrust if the track is more engaged regardless of how much "squat" there is in the front?

VB

Again I here you. So pulling the say bar with stock spring rates. Not a great idea because, when pulled on edge the front springs are going to be along way thru there travel when you start. Yea I can see that. What I see is the light ski or downhill ski following along connected by the sway bar (unsprung weight). A lot of weight floating along doing nothing but making the up hill ski slow to react to bumps. IMO the benefits of sway bar are for trail riding not 1 ski mountain riding.
With proper spring rates. Don't you hate sidehilling along, you go through a bumpy section and you can feel the downhill suspension rattling along. It just doesn't feel as good as it not connected. I love my 36s with no bar I also have buddies who hate the setup. Its a personal thing.

I wonder if the OP was even thinking of steep side hills with his question?

The pro has a planted feel in low snow because the rear suspension is set up for powder.
You can do a lot to make the stock suspension feel better in low snow (many add an inch or more of preload to the middle shock for this reason) without buying a thing but it will never feel as nimble in low snow as an Assault (which has a wider front end) because of the rear suspension geometry and mounting.
The rider forward Doo has a gimmick to help to help a mountain set up-mounted skid work better in low snow. Its a flexy rear arm. You can now get one for your Pro.

I tried triple rates on the front initially (new to a Pro in early season logging road riding) trying to get a softer easier roll in without compromising bottoming but the effects were the opposite of the question posed here. Duh, should of know, from past sleds and experience but it takes a few rides after a summer off to get the need-to-just-ride out of the head lol.
The rear suspension carries the sled and fronts are like a ski pole to an old time skier. In powder you need to stab it in and in low snow it's just a light poke because of habit. What really makes a sled dance is where you put your feet (or more like foot and which one) and how you stab at the throttle
I'm gonna throw in a thumbs up for a Timber Sled rear arm kit on a Pro. If you want the best of both worlds (after you play with it for a bit it is as simple as one suspension setting and turn the knob for different snow) get one. IMO it has nothing to do with 1" less leverage on one side or borrowing the bit of spring force (REALLY soft sway bar) from the other side.

IMO the biggest advantage from a narrower front end on the very slim Pro is being able to squeeze through those 2 trees that your buddy can't lol.
The sway bar or not discussion is covered above and how both ways will work if set up correctly. 36 or 38" front end are both the same here.
FYI if you narrow up and don't change springs you just stiffened the front. 1" is about 10 lbs of spring force to inch of travel. Geometry. So if you narrow up and don't take the spring change you just did into account you may find it definitely does feel better without the sway bar. Heck, people in the know tune with 30 thou changes in cross over stacks on triple rates cause it makes a difference that can be felt.

"Getting up on edge" that is discussed here is simply technique, no matter what you are riding. Throttle control and weight placement at the proper time and position. You can take a 700 lb '98 Mach Z LT, with a 42" front end and side hill on spring snow all day long if your arms and legs are long enough or your pack and a** are heavy enough lol ( I think that is why packs became popular in the first place lol).

These new ones are just easier now and technique may have been forgotten and force is able to work because of weight and C of G of the Pro. It's actually easier to get on the edge and maintain the edge in low snow conditions with a stiffer front spring set-up. If your up one the ski and trying to dial in to a line, who needs a pogo on the front changing sled geometry every time it comes across a bump. Way easier stiff.


It's an amazing sled lol.

I run the ZBORZ 36". I started with there dual rate spring kit on To try and save money (mistake). I only road it like that 2 times with that set up. Its like MH said the shocks need to be set up for 36' stance. Then called them back up ordered there exit shocks set up for my weight and riding style and could not be happier. The only warning I have is on trails I have to go about 10 MPH slower in the corners then my buddies. But I don't hit trails very often. Side hilling Hard snow they do great.

dorning3 said:

I run the ZBORZ 36". I started with there dual rate spring kit on To try and save money (mistake). I only road it like that 2 times with that set up. Its like MH said the shocks need to be set up for 36' stance. Then called them back up ordered there exit shocks set up for my weight and riding style and could not be happier. The only warning I have is on trails I have to go about 10 MPH slower in the corners then my buddies. But I don't hit trails very often. Side hilling Hard snow they do great.

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Im glad to hear that you are alot happier, with the Exit shocks over the Walkers with there dual rate springs. Getting anxious to try it.

tincuprider said:

I've ridden a Pro 800 since they came out in 2011. All in all I love the sled. If there's one small gripe it's low snow handling characteristics. I am interested in the 36 inch kits to correct the Pros tendency to want to stay planted in low snow. Any of you that have experience with these kits that could describe the pros and cons of how they affect handling especially in lower snow conditions. Thanks.

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I to was trying to acquire information about low snow handling especially in off camber situations. Without spending a pile more money I tried many suspension set ups on my 2011 assault and I came to the occlusion that the softer the rear shock preload combined with a somewhat softer front track shock preload along with my 225 lb helped by squating the rear of the sled which gave me a lot more control of the front... Similar to the way doos xp rear sinks.i did try softening the ski shocks but quickly went back to a firmer front set up. One thing I did learn very quickly was that a little preload adjustment goes a long way on these pros