Turboing E-Tec

MARCUSO · Oct 25, 2009

I know this is a subject that has had a lot of talk lately, since the rumoured 800 is supposed to become a reality soon in the new sleds.

I was reading that people are having trouble with fuel delivery on the 600 e-tec.
Thought I would start a thread specific to this subject, Turboing the e-tec, and it's challenges and possibilities.

AKSNOWRIDER · Oct 25, 2009

I would think that the easy way to do it would be to piggy back regular injectors and ecm to feed the extra fuel needed for the turbo?I have heard the downfall with the E-tec is flowing enough fuel for the 6 let alone the 8.

triple7 · Oct 25, 2009

Well, piggybacking a secondary fuel system is exactly what was tried on the E-tec turbo I was around. The issue I have with that is it totally negates any possible benefit that the E-tec type of fuel delivery might have ever had. It eliminates you ability to control fuel timing in accordance with detonation events. Basically after you piggyback onto the stock setup you have an over complicated, prone to problems throttle body injection setup. Why not just build one of those?

I was talking with the guy who actually owns the e-tec turbo 600 I was around on Friday. He thought that they had finally got the fuel controller and auxillary injector to work fairly well. What nobody could get control over was the factory ignition and injection control. So, there are a ton of different sensors all over that motor and as soon as one reads something it doesnt like it either causes the ECM to radically pull timing causing bogs in VERY bad spots or it will pull fuel. When it pulls fuel you get a radically lean condition because the auxillary injector is still adding enough for the motor to run, and you get a mid throttle burndown out of nowhere.

What is really bad is that we have to have fuel in the case to make the crank live at larger than stock output. So, we cant even just build a larger E-tec injector and let the factory setup run it. We are stuck adding fuel to the bottom end via throttle body injectors. This is not cheap in any way. Then, somebody is going to have to get control over the factory electronics. We CANNOT deal with sensors going off and timing getting jerked out of it.

Overall, this will be a huge step back for the hotrod guys. E-tec was never and has never been used to build big power. That isnt what its about at all. It is an emission tool and that is it. Not some great electronic gizmo that is going to allow us to build better turbo Doos. Not by a long shot.

Jake

cableguy · Oct 25, 2009

have any of you guys talked to EFI Live about complete reprogamming of the ecm like they do to the duramax deisels I luv how my truck performs.

DWHalverson · Oct 25, 2009

The issues Jake stated are real and that is with the original e-Tec. We will wait and see what Ski-Doo actually offers to the consumer. It will be a challenge and we will be ready for the challenge when it comes. Ski-Doo is tuned into what the aftermarket is up to

. They might not want to build it from the factory, but I guarantee they are not going to cut their throats and loose sales for the aftermarket mods because they gave us something that is very, very inconsistent and tough to build around. Turbo or not, any mod to the original e-Tec design has huge disadvantages.

Dave

brycter · Oct 26, 2009

55 volts and 500 psi fuel pressure. Crap i just can't go down to radio shack for those kind of parts.

Dang,fart,spit,snort!!!

triple7 · Oct 26, 2009

DWHalverson said:
The issues Jake stated are real and that is with the original e-Tec. We will wait and see what Ski-Doo actually offers to the consumer. It will be a challenge and we will be ready for the challenge when it comes. Ski-Doo is tuned into what the aftermarket is up to. They might not want to build it from the factory, but I guarantee they are not going to cut their throats and loose sales for the aftermarket mods because they gave us something that is very, very inconsistent and tough to build around. Turbo or not, any mod to the original e-Tec design has huge disadvantages.

Dave

Yep, what we can hope for will be an updated version that straight up rips! Come on Skidoo, help us out just a little!

Jake

brycter · Oct 27, 2009

I agree jake. We Have a etec comming our way and we will see how many times that we can burn it down. I don't want to add a stand alone system but maybe that is the only way.

even if you figure out how to increase the amount of fuel into the injector the nozzle will be putting out a diffent stream of fuel and then the fuel will not atomize. This will be a hard build but i think that it can be done. We have to make it work its my job. No rest for the brycter.

if you brainyacts on snowest have any suggestions let me know. I will listen to all except the " it can't be done comments". constructive comments please.

Rms Rydning · Oct 28, 2009

Turboing a E-tec with high boost will be hard...
You dont have any cooling of the piston from the crankcase and that will add significant heat to the piston..

In a turboed 4 stroke: It only fires every 2nd time the piston is on top, and the piston gets continius cooling of all the oil that splashes around in the crankcase.

But it can be done using less timing and more fuel..

A other solutions is to get pistons that can take more heat. And then we get into a other problem when the pistons goes hotter, preignition and detonation will occur, but this can be solved with higer oktane racefuels.

smile · Oct 30, 2009

I am not following this? Why can't an etech be turboed? Just get some one to build you a new ecm and add injectors. Why does an ecm care if gas is in the air ? other than something to control the injector it souldn't be that hard. Paul at impulse is building his own computers for the nytro.

triple7 · Oct 30, 2009

Well, ultimatly that will probably be what has to be done. But, if you havent looked at the ECM unit in the etec you should. That is going to be super expensive and super complicated to build one that works as you want it too.
Piggybacking injectors onto the factory injection is not my favorite way of dealing with fuel delivery either.
Couple that up to not having all of the fuel going through the case for cooling, and you have some issues when looking for big power.

Jake

soul! · Nov 12, 2009

i am in the middle of turboing my mtn etec

going with two auxillary injectors

using the sds eic computer which is a good basic injector driver which is boost referenced

using a 55 aero

will be doing fuel pressure tests in a week or so to see if the stock fuel pump can be used or if it falls off

i also am going to experiment with stock factory computer and see if it responds to boost by pressurizing the built in aps you never know, some engineer tech may have mapped the computer roughly to boost

anyhow my opinion you need a bit of fuel in the airstream to cool the charge

however for the first time in porsche history they are going to direct injection on a turbo motor and from what i have seen there is no port injection to help cool the charge

triple7 · Nov 13, 2009

Good luck and keep us in the loop with what you learn.

Im 90% sure you will need another fuel pump to support the horsepower.

Jake

gus bohne · Nov 13, 2009

Keep in mind guys that 2 strokes expose the piston dome, skirt and rings to direct flame and return wave heat.
4 strokes expose ONLY the dome to direct flame.

Bryce is right about fuel atomization vs pressure/volume.
Its going to be easy to add an AIC and boost. Its NOT going to be the etech after that, just another boosted 2 stroke.

Bryce, you'll just have to use an iac, get IT tuned as good as you can and ride it. The only glitch that could emerge is in the software overrides.

Etech may not like overrevs, overheats or sensing differences in how often it tickles the det sensor..
How will changing compression affect the way etech sees the engines state of tune ?
how will back pressure make the pipe temp sensor react ?
will etech store this data like the machz and cause batch stack faults ?

You guys will get it done, it will run but will it be any different than just adding an iac to any other doo ?

Keep on boostin'

Gus

soul! · Nov 13, 2009

the one advantage though is the etec computer will flash up all the fault codes for you to read
it will also tell you detonation

i have mapped out the exhaust temp sensor and there is quite a range of temp before it flashes a code

i do know that it needs about 550 ohms of resistance to run properly though

triple7 · Nov 13, 2009

My advice for you would be to track down what each sensor in that system needs to work at optimum and make it believe that is the condition it is in full time. The etec I played with would do weird things. It wasnt that it didnt make good power, it did. But, it would just trip a sensor and the party would be over.

The timing issues are where your time should be spent IMO. You need to get control over the timing so it cant pull it unexpectedly.

Jake

Gros Chien · Nov 20, 2009

How about Skidoo comin out with a 800R ETEC(speculating) with ''good quality&flexibility'' injectors? Would it be easier to work with, and keepin the stock ECM without jeopardizing the whole control loop by gettin a bunch of weird signals? I know I'm trying to get a straight answer to a much complex issue, but I simply wanna know,,, what if skidoo had better quality injectors on a DI system, would it help?

brycter · Nov 20, 2009

Explain some more. What type of injectors? What do you call flexability?

Can we adjust the timing of injector in the ecu? There is alot of questions to get staight answers but ya you are starting to think on the right track.

Gros Chien · Nov 20, 2009

Well I guess we'll all find out soon, I mean, when they release a 800R ETEC Summit in january

hopefully :face-icon-small-hap

triple7 · Nov 20, 2009

Surely you mean hopefully not

I dont really think there is a more 'quality' injector that would allow us to make the etec work boosted. From the information I have gathered the injector technology used to build the Etec injection for the 600 is pretty stretched to deliver the fuel it does at the rpm ceiling it operates in.

Dont get me wrong I would love to hear any information that you may be eluding to. But, as of now the word is that the technology you are suggesting doesnt exist.
Pulse length and orifice sizing to maintain fuel homogenization are the two main issues. Remember, etec is and always has been a system used to meet epa regulations, not a system developed for building big power. You run into some problems with it when trying to get the quantity of fuel into the cylinder that it takes to build the amount of power we are aiming for.

Not to mention is has never been Skidoo's style to build us an electronics system that is easily manipulated

Jake

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