HM TURBOS WANTS INPUT DESIGNING THE NEW 800H.O. TURBO KIT

Fairly new to the turbo world on snowmobiles...but generally talking not to the concepts. Have a sled a good friend sold me after he had spent a lot of time and effort setting up. It is a BD kit with the GTX2860, Tial housing, external waste gate, and the air to air intercooler.

It seems to me there is some serious contradiction when it comes to peoples opinions. I think the best way to start would be to offer suggestions on each of the options you've listed and talk about the pros/cons of each in regard to the response of the system, i.e. an intercooler may slow throttle response slightly but keep charge temps consistent. One thing really stuck out to me in a response....somebody raving only race gas, no intercooler at 10-14 psi. So you'll gladly spend $12-14 on race fuels but won't pony up the $$$ for an intercooler or what is the motive here?

Been running a Silber tuboer for a few years on a '11 Pro. Been through the ups and downs of owning a turbo. I feel most of my problems stemmed from the Doebeck box. I can say that with confidence now that all of my "strange running" problems have gone away since I went with the Vipec.
My reccommendation: K.I.S.S.
Turbo sleds are going to need some maintenence(more than a stocker). If you can deal with that you shouldn't own one.
Make it as easy to take apart as possible. Design it as simple as poosible for the base kit.
examplel: external wastegates are cool, but are they really nessecary for most people. I know I can do without. Plus its one more thing that is taking up space & it's one more bolt to unbolt(or rust tight). One more factor in the equation.

goridedoo said:

I feel like everyone is really overthinking this. Make it simple, make it work, and make it consistent, if you do that I don't think anyone will complain, and if they do, fawk em. I don't think there's any reason to make 20 different options, its just not worth the added time of testing all the options and dealing with the different issues that will arise from each different kit. Make one kit, run it at one boost level, somewhere in the 7-10lb range, have the clutching, fueling, and everything for that one kit figured out for each elevation, and run them all the same exact way. Make it so that the average sledder, can buy this kit, drive a few hours, have a dealer install it, and ride the thing for a season without doing anything besides mixing fuel and changing clutching for different elevations. Any azzhat can do that. Get one dealer in each state out west that you can have do your installs, people will drive 3-6+ hours for an install of a good kit. Make whatever YOU think YOU can make work the best, most consistent, and have it cater to the average guy, the kits will sell themselves.

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I think this goridedoo guy maybe knows a thing or two about business!!

So before i answer, I have a question for HMT. "What is your end goal that'll be accomplished by this new turbo?" No need to answer, but its worth pondering.

Is it to make the most HP on a dyno? Is it to make HMT the most profit? Is it to outsell the competition? Or to overpromise and under-deliver?

All goals could be accomplished by building a specific turbo set up. But I would take goridedoo's advice. Its the clear path to success IMO. All of the shops are offering a mess of options, so many that they can't hardly come up with a setup that will run reasonably well for everyone. Running one setup will drastically reduce your r&d costs. It'll also make it way easier to diagnose/track/treat issues along the way. It'll be the most profitable for HMT, and also be the best for your customers. We just want something that runs day in an day out. Not so finicky. Make it work (financially too) for the masses.

Take a lesson from Steve Jobs and the success of the ipod. Keep it simple. Jobs knew that (early mp3 players) only 20% of features were used 80+% of the time. So he cut out all of the crappy extras that only made mp3 players harder to use. Came out with the ipod. The critics said it would never sell because it "lacked features." Well, look where that went.

Its called the 80/20 principle. Applies to a lot of defferent things in life. Only 20% of your effort will determine 80% of your results. Chasing around all the extras and peripherals will only serve to decrease profitability and increase the chance of unhappy customers.

If ur still reading, well then logon Amazon.com and buy some books re The 80/20 Principle cause u obviously like to read and its pretty fascinating!!!!

One thing really stuck out to me in a response....somebody raving only race gas, no intercooler at 10-14 psi. So you'll gladly spend $12-14 on race fuels but won't pony up the $$$ for an intercooler or what is the motive here?[/QUOTE]


Well that was me, ive been building race motors for 25+ years and owned my own shop before I retired. Very simple on the intercooler in a sled, its not needed at all, you have air entering the system at 10 degrees and running proper fuel at moderate boost levels (14 psi). If you actually calculate the pressure drops across the cooler and the heat exchanged at that power level along with the added lag and weight in a sled application its pretty plain to see the intercooler is not needed. Now to go along with my post, it you want to run **** for gas (pump) and still want to try 10+ pounds of boost the intercooler is a great way to try and help the situation, ie the Porsche turbo motors ive done, 1.5 bar on pump gas and zero issues. All in all on small 2 stroke engines I just do not believe adding complexity and weight where it is not needed, a very high percentage of sled engine failures come for one thing, poor fuel choice, it is mandatory that you run proper octane for the boost levels. IHMO :face-icon-small-coo

Here's my 2 cents:
I'm not overly wealthy and can't spend the 7-8k on a kit above the 12k of the sled. Not gonna happen. I'd love to see a kit that makes 210-220hp at elevation, is simple to maintain and install. The less options the better, simple is good. I don't care how many lbs it runs at, it's usually just a big d*ck contest at that point anyways. Make a kit that just flat out runs, throttle response would be a major point of concern. It if needs av gas to run, so be it. I think there's a good majority of us that would love to have a boosted reliable, pull the rope and go sled that doesnt need fiddled with all day. Get it tuned and clutched and just ride it. Some guys may want the 14#+ on race fuel but not me. Give me a dead reliable 210 hp kit for my pro at a price that working class guys like me can afford, and there will be a line of customers. I know there's others that feel the way I do. Whatever the end result is, I'm sure that Shane and co. will send out a quality product.
himarker

Old style fuel controller like the old boost-it style. 2 knobs to adjust and thats it.
It'd cut down on customer babysitting calls by 500-1.

Having put 2500 miles on a 2012 Pro fitted with your kit, which I will be swapping to a new sled shortly.......

I can honestly say the old kit has been great, true pull and go. My only complaint is where is our EBC that was promised? Lets get that working before we move onto the next gen!

Keep the vipec (make EBC work.)

Do not bother with a pump gas kit, we all know how that turns out.

Make sure your installers are top notch........^^^^^^

No secondary or stock injectors please, just sell the kit with the larger ones you will need at the end of the day.

Offer more literature with your kit, with setups recommended for riding styles (chutes, boondocking,flat land etc,) the more advice/ recommendations on paper for your clients the better.

Keep your clients informed, map updates, or problems found with the kit, send them all an email.

Basically keep doing what your doing, the Pro kits were awesome, just refine what works.

Shane... What about keeping the static compression ratio high (≈13-14:1).... and run moderate boost (≈8-9 lbs) with 100% 110 Race gas (106 MON) or 100LL (104 MON) to keep deto at bay??

Is that a sound concept that that would give great bottom end grunt and transient throttle response?
OR
Am I barking up the wrong tree??

The other thing would be what Scott eluded to ... shooting for the most consumer friendly package right out of the box.

Question for you... Do you want to make a lot of them or a smaller amount for select clientele.

Keep up the good work!!



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mountainhorse said:

Shane... What about keeping the static compression ratio high (≈13-14:1).... and run moderate boost (≈8-9 lbs) with 100% 110 Race gas (106 MON) or 100LL (104 MON) to keep deto at bay??

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this on e85


Have you guys looked/played with the BW EFR turbos? they're kicking *** on cars and have some smaller ones that might work well on our sleds.

meathooker said:

this on e85





Have you guys looked/played with the BW EFR turbos? they're kicking *** on cars and have some smaller ones that might work well on our sleds.

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Mtntk uses them

I have tried Boondocker, Silber and now I am currently running Mtntk turbo. So far my best experience is the mtntk. It is a bit more work to install but they use quality parts and an awesome tune on their GT tuner.

So, if I was to design my own turbokit:

- Oil lubricated turbo for better durability
- Intercooler option
- A working clutch setup. (I have developed my own this last 3 years but have costed a lot of $$)
- Easy tuning, vipec or Bullydog
- Turbo pressure control (elevation, temperature)
- Prize between 5500-6000$
- Upgraded customer support
- As quiet as possible to make them trail friendly
- Use the stock air intake
- Plug and play electronics and no cutting in the chassis
- Option for programming the ecu to run Big bore with turbo