To Yamaha or not to Yamaha that is the question

Sep 19, 2010
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So been thinking of buying a sidewinder my t3 is getting tired. Just having a hard time with the weight i have a apex and it's just a beast to deal with i can ride it but my body doesn't like it . Is the sidewinder closer to a apex or a m8 . Thoughts .
 

nytro41

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We have 2 sidewinders. They are heavier then a two stroke. That’s just the way it is. But with that being said. We have a 850 175 turbo skidoo. 14lbs on race fuel. Runs like a scolded cat. I have a 17 sidewinder with belt drive (yes I lost reverse) it is 10lbs heavier than our 850 175. Also this particular sidewinder has a 3.5” pitch 175 conquer 280 track on it. So it’s apples to apples. I love that sled (it is for sale lol). It is a little heavier. We all know that. But I’d ride that sled over a Polaris or a 165 850 any day of the week. The reason it is for sale is because I need a 2020 alpha for my business. I’m not getting rid of it because I want to lol.
 
Feb 7, 2009
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Way closer to a M8.. but not as close as you may think.. very nose heavy, as you would expect. If you can possibly test ride one or rent.. that would be the way to go. I don't recommend just jumping into one without trying it first. It was a very love hate relationship with my old viper... and most guys I rode with hated pulling the ski on that thing.
 
Oct 9, 2009
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Honestly, the ready to ride weight gap between a turbo viper/winder and a turbo 2 stroke is not that much. For example, a viper is a nytro motor shoved in an M8000 chassis. Aside from the motor, clutches, and oil system, those sled are nearly identical. However, other makes have a slight weight advantage over the proclimb chassis. The question comes when considering how much power you want to run.

Considering turbo setups, a manufactured 850 class two stroke simply won't make the power a winder will if you push it. However, do you do things that require the power a winder will reliably deliver that a 2 stroke wont? If not, pick the sled that gives you the most rider confidence because, as you know, that will be the limitation. In contrast, if you do, only a four stroke will deliver that. I own both, and I will say they are built to do two different things. For playing around and trail riding, my built turbo viper is just way too much sled. However, I would not ride anything else when the mountains are big and the snow is deep because it can generate 90 mph track speeds.
 

big-zig

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I own 2. My 2018 is now a 174" with EROV and Hurricane power upgrades. I'm big (300 dressed), compared to my partners new 850 doo it is heavier. That said, in our group of five my sled is everyones favorite to play on. The power makes the weight much less noticeable and the turbo performance up high where we ride is lightyears ahead of any non-turbo 2 stroke. If you are a small guy it will take more work for you to ride. If you are 200+ then you won't regret it. Turbo two-stroke you need about 10# boost and race fuel to hang with it. I got tired of constantly tuning, tweeking and watching guages on my 2 stroke turbo. I don't regret changing sleds.
All that said, I'm in my fifties and my schedule over the winter precludes me from mountain riding... kinda sucks.
 

ak

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I own 2. My 2018 is now a 174" with EROV and Hurricane power upgrades. I'm big (300 dressed), compared to my partners new 850 doo it is heavier. That said, in our group of five my sled is everyones favorite to play on. The power makes the weight much less noticeable and the turbo performance up high where we ride is lightyears ahead of any non-turbo 2 stroke. If you are a small guy it will take more work for you to ride. If you are 200+ then you won't regret it. Turbo two-stroke you need about 10# boost and race fuel to hang with it. I got tired of constantly tuning, tweeking and watching guages on my 2 stroke turbo. I don't regret changing sleds.
All that said, I'm in my fifties and my schedule over the winter precludes me from mountain riding... kinda sucks.
Which ones performs better the evo are hurricane if there the same power level?
 

Big10inch

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It is a HUGE weight difference, 100-150 lbs is not even close. My Proclimb is about 520 lbs ready to ride, a similar sidewinder is 650. The joke about the power making it so you can't feel the weight... just a lie. It would be like strapping my wife to the hood and saying you can't feel the difference. Current 4 strokes make horrible mtn machines, probably why Yammi will likely bail on sleds soon.
 
Oct 9, 2009
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That is a very polar reply. Have you ever ridden a newer yamaha? My guess is not. My turbo viper ready to go was 576 pounds setup as a 174, not a 162, last time I weighed it with an air to water setup. Yes, I have some lightweight parts, but so do you if your proclimb weighs in at 520 full of fluids. Post a photo of your sled on scales. I bet you are just guessing.

Also, I saw a ready to ride bone stock winder weighed in at 628 and a viper is in the area of 615 not turboed. The main weight difference between a viper and a m8000 is the engine weight and the radiator in the nose. My viper motor weighed 110 pounds when I put it on a scale and the radiator and fan were roughly 2.5 pounds plus water weight. I can say for sure, an additional 56 pounds is not much considering how much more power my sled is capable of.

Do they weigh more? A little bit, yes. But, that does not mean they are not capable mountain sleds. In contrast, they are capable of more. You just have to have a properly setup sled and be able to ride it. Finally, as I said prior, I do ride turbo two strokes as well and they have their place too. Each sled is capable for different reasons and should be used for such.
 

Big10inch

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Yes, I am just guessing but likely very close on my 17 Mtn Cat 153 with a can. Be honest, your few lightweight parts cost thousands didn't they, on top of a sled that cost thousands more and you are still 50-60 lbs heavier? Stock for stock you admit it, 628 vs 520 is over 100 lbs. I have seen Sidewinders on the hook weighing 650+ more than once. I can feel substantial difference between a Cat and a Poo that are less than 30 lbs apart, much less double or triple that... What do you need the power for? Still a highmarker? My nearly stock 800 goes to places I shouldn't be and would leave that silly 174 sidewinder for dead in the trees. Enjoy that tank but please quit lying to people about how the weight doesn't matter, or you can't feel it because, that is simply a lie.
 
Feb 7, 2009
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Yes, I am just guessing but likely very close on my 17 Mtn Cat 153 with a can. Be honest, your few lightweight parts cost thousands didn't they, on top of a sled that cost thousands more and you are still 50-60 lbs heavier? Stock for stock you admit it, 628 vs 520 is over 100 lbs. I have seen Sidewinders on the hook weighing 650+ more than once. I can feel substantial difference between a Cat and a Poo that are less than 30 lbs apart, much less double or triple that... What do you need the power for? Still a highmarker? My nearly stock 800 goes to places I shouldn't be and would leave that silly 174 sidewinder for dead in the trees. Enjoy that tank but please quit lying to people about how the weight doesn't matter, or you can't feel it because, that is simply a lie.
I hate to admit it, but you are right.
The weight is unbearable.

Even going between the 3 two stroke manufacturers you can notice a huge difference.

You can make due with the four stroke.. but its a chore.. and hardly ever worth the effort.

Like I said before, try one first before you invest your money.. they are very difficult to sell afterwards.

Big10inch, Yamaha does very well in the eastern provinces/states with their trail sleds.. I doubt you'll see them give up completely any time soon.

If they could shed another 20 lbs off the engine and put it in a lighter chassis with equal weight distribution... They may be on to something.. however in the current configuration, its a heavy trail sled with a long track..
 

Big10inch

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Do you think they will keep going? They have all but pulled out from the mtn market. I haven't tried one because the dealers around here wont even stock them because they do not sell. Is Textron going to continue selling them chassis?
 
Oct 9, 2009
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From a quick internet search, an etec 850 motor weighs 92 pounds (42 kg). That is 20-ish pounds lighter than my viper motor. Your riding gear weighs more than that, especially if you ride with a backpack. Next, the following links post actual scale weights of both sleds without fuel which is around 65 to 70 pounds depending on tank size. Fuel roughly weighs 6 pounds per gallon. Doing simple math, that would put your sled within 25-ish pounds of my turbo viper. Your huge gap just got a little smaller.

Weight m8000 and m7000 comparisons


Also, yes my viper is an expensive sled. I never acted like it was not. It is purpose built for climbing out of the biggest chutes I can find, not simply high-marking a wide open hill. I have ridden all over the Rockies in utah, idaho, and wyoming and all the way to boulder mountain in revelstoke canada. Chute climbing is what I enjoy, and I wont apologize for that. I tree ride, what you seem to enjoy, on occasion with friends. Jumping from side to side on sidehill reversal cuts and doing re-entries is fun for a while, but it is not what I wake up to ride for. And yes, I do that on my turbo skidoo as my viper is a bit too long for tight spaces. So, my sled choices reflect my riding styles, so does your's. Like I said in my original post, 4 strokes are built for a different type of riding and they rule that arena. If you cannot understand their value, you probably don't do or like that type of riding, which is great. Do what you do.

Finally, to say a winder is not capable of tree riding is not true. The following is one of many. You can find more if you like.

 

christopher

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Weight is important, no argument.
But there is a HELL OF A LOT to be said for 275hp coming alive underneath you that lasts for 10-20k before a rebuild is required and that SOUND.
Oh Lord the SOUND of that engine is the SWEETEST damn thing you have ever heard on the mountain with the right can.

There is a place for Boosted Yamahas on the mountain.
They are NOT for everyone.
Heck, they are NOT for most anyone.
But, in the hands of the right guy, they are a JOY to ride.

yamaha.jpg
 

jrusher

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I have a 2015 viper 162 , i weighed it bone stock full of fuel ready to ride was 601 lbs . Then I added a boost-it turbo , light weight battery , racers edge skid, deleted headlight; newer front end , skins seat and she’s 620 lbs ready to ride . It’s my 3rd turbo Yamaha and it’s still heavy mainly in those awkward off camber situations where it will take you for a ride lol. I don’t ride it much as I been snow biking more the last 5 years and I can’t give the thing away . When the snow is deep she comes out and it’s a riot to ride and still puts a grin on your face when you point it up anything you want or go tree bashing. It’s a workout no doubt you work so much harder to get it to do what you want compared to a 2 smoker. It’s no where near as playful and light weight like a smoker feels but it’s a trade off for that reliable hp depends what you like the most
 

Big10inch

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From a quick internet search, an etec 850 motor weighs 92 pounds (42 kg). That is 20-ish pounds lighter than my viper motor. Your riding gear weighs more than that, especially if you ride with a backpack. Next, the following links post actual scale weights of both sleds without fuel which is around 65 to 70 pounds depending on tank size. Fuel roughly weighs 6 pounds per gallon. Doing simple math, that would put your sled within 25-ish pounds of my turbo viper. Your huge gap just got a little smaller.

Weight m8000 and m7000 comparisons


Also, yes my viper is an expensive sled. I never acted like it was not. It is purpose built for climbing out of the biggest chutes I can find, not simply high-marking a wide open hill. I have ridden all over the Rockies in utah, idaho, and wyoming and all the way to boulder mountain in revelstoke canada. Chute climbing is what I enjoy, and I wont apologize for that. I tree ride, what you seem to enjoy, on occasion with friends. Jumping from side to side on sidehill reversal cuts and doing re-entries is fun for a while, but it is not what I wake up to ride for. And yes, I do that on my turbo skidoo as my viper is a bit too long for tight spaces. So, my sled choices reflect my riding styles, so does your's. Like I said in my original post, 4 strokes are built for a different type of riding and they rule that arena. If you cannot understand their value, you probably don't do or like that type of riding, which is great. Do what you do.

Finally, to say a winder is not capable of tree riding is not true. The following is one of many. You can find more if you like.


My 17 MC is at least 25 lbs lighter than the 2015 M8000 you listed. That "tree riding" video was kind of sad really... We hit them a LOT harder than that, the tank would be left behind I am afraid.
 

robrstopr

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Always great to see a Boosted Sled in capable hands in the trees. Im not that guy, I get around, oh wait. I thought I got around ok until last season riding with a couple forum 2 stroke guys. Long story, but still I just cant bring myself to drop my hard earned cash on any 800 2 stroke. Not that they aren't as fun or more fun than my SW. Im just not that rich. Ride what ya got...Envy everyone else's. Yes... weight matters....So does Power. Which is most important you. Oooops my Bad. Forgot what Thread this was...Guess we all chose POWER. Let It Snow....
 

christopher

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Big10inch

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Always great to see a Boosted Sled in capable hands in the trees. Im not that guy, I get around, oh wait. I thought I got around ok until last season riding with a couple forum 2 stroke guys. Long story, but still I just cant bring myself to drop my hard earned cash on any 800 2 stroke. Not that they aren't as fun or more fun than my SW. Im just not that rich. Ride what ya got...Envy everyone else's. Yes... weight matters....So does Power. Which is most important you. Oooops my Bad. Forgot what Thread this was...Guess we all chose POWER. Let It Snow....

Not all of us LOL. I just stopped by to help someone avoid this mistake... I choose weight over power all day long, and twice today since it is Sunday. My 800 2 stroke doesn't need any more power to leave heavy 4 strokes way behind riding the trees... Chute climbing is so 90's guys, update your machine and join the real fun!
 

revrider07

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If your 25 and in great shape the yamaha can be ridden. Good to have choices but there sales tell the tale.
 

Monster Max

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I love the sidewinders and 4 stroke power in general...it’s always a rush to pull the throttle in the deep, something you don’t get from the 2’s. I wouldn’t be riding in the trees even if I had a brand new 2 stroke, it’s not my thing. Both styles of machines excel in their particular style of riding, you just have to decide what yours is.
 
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