Ti-Pex

mattymac

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Sourced an older diamond S titanium tube apex chassis. Had a stock chassis 2860 impulse apex 162 that I always wanted to do this to. The chassis was a little rough when I got it. It had a wrecked stock front end, M7 skid junk maverick 162x2", holes in the tunnel skins.

My Plan is to redo the chassis making it look new again, drop in a built engine to be able to hold 500+ hp, bigger turbo (gtx 2867), Motec standalone with a custom race style wiring harness, titanium front end with exit shocks. chassis already has a drop and roll with 8t 3" pitch drivers with tons of clearance for my bigger paddle.

Theres still a long ways to go but I should have it ready for snow this upcoming winter.

One of the bigger projects to the chassis was to move and redo the rear skid mounting brackets, getting rid of the stock M series skid and putting in my KMOD 162 and camo extreme 3" cutdown track. if anyone knows welding ti takes a bit more prep and care to not contaminate the weld itself.

Ill update this thread as I move forward with the project.

Stock chassis turbo apex mtx 162 fully wet, 12 gallon impulse fuel cell setup, comes in at 673lbs! (174+176+323 rear) its heavy but balanced better than any other sled on the snow!

Im hoping to get it into the high 500 lb range wet/ready to ride by doing this conversion and a solid 400 hp engine/turbo setup.

Im sure people are gonna wonder why im doing this with such an old heavy dinosaur... I have always wanted to have this exact sled, I like being and having different things than everyone else (not everyone is chris burandt on their wrapped turbo twin) the power and sound of a built big boost apex is the best thing in the sport of snowmobiling, plus I already had the sled and theyre not worth that much anymore to sell so why not just keep pouring money into it! Ill still have less in this than a new factory turbo sled!
 

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Good luck with the build...very cool. Nothing beats the sound of a turbo apex. I too have an apex project. As time permits, I work on restoring the first propex powerhouse customs built. For me, it was cheaper to source a low mile donor apex than pay someone to rebuild the engine. So, I appreciate your approach.

Lastly, as someone who did what you plan to do with a yamaha viper, I recommend practicing restraint. Motecs are very expensive (5k plug n play installed with a tune), and the gtx2867r won't get you to the numbers you are talking about. I maxed a 2867 gen 2 out at 24 psi at 8000 feet and had to go bigger to get to my 400 hp goal at altitude. You will need something like a gtx3071, g25-660, or g30-660. Furthermore, the apex requires a lot more machining than the viper motor, which cost me 5 grand to build for big power (400+). The apex costs more because it has 1 extra valve per cylinder and an extra cylinder. To give you an idea, you will need to closed deck the block (or it will crack a cylinder if you turn it up), put in high pressure valve springs, install rods and pistons, balance the rotating assembly, and machine the block for bigger head studs that go deep into the block. While your there, you may consider porting the head, putting in oversized valves, installing cams, putting in a gear reduction, and possibly stroking the crank. To build just the motor, you will spend around 8k, or 12k+ if you choose to get more wild. In the end, you will not use the power and ride it around at 280 to 320 hp on low boost. You will find more than that is simply too much in the mountains. I suggest riding it in the form you currently have operational with the considerable weight loss before going bananas on the motor. You will spend a fortune to not use the power a stock apex is capable of. In the end, all you need is a set of studs, a shim, valve springs and retianers, and retiming the cams to get in the mid 300s. I would not push past the 340 to 350 hp range...rods and pistons and a closed deck are needed past that. Also, Paul at impulse can hook up a programmed standalone for less than a motec. Go that route. I love my m130 because I can run big ignition coils and flex fuel for mixing race gas with e85. But, honestly you are paying for the name since you will barely touch the functionality of the motec.
 
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mattymac

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Good luck with the build...very cool. Nothing beats the sound of a turbo apex. I too have an apex project. As time permits, I work on restoring the first propex powerhouse customs built. For me, it was cheaper to source a low mile donor apex than pay someone to rebuild the engine. So, I appreciate your approach.

Lastly, as someone who did what you plan to do with a yamaha viper, I recommend practicing restraint. Motecs are very expensive (5k plug n play installed with a tune), and the gtx2867r won't get you to the numbers you are talking about. I maxed a 2867 gen 2 out at 24 psi at 8000 feet and had to go bigger to get to my 400 hp goal at altitude. You will need something like a gtx3071, g25-660, or g30-660. Furthermore, the apex requires a lot more machining than the viper motor, which cost me 5 grand to build for big power (400+). The apex costs more because it has 1 extra valve per cylinder and an extra cylinder. To give you an idea, you will need to closed deck the block (or it will crack a cylinder if you turn it up), put in high pressure valve springs, install rods and pistons, balance the rotating assembly, and machine the block for bigger head studs that go deep into the block. While your there, you may consider porting the head, putting in oversized valves, installing cams, putting in a gear reduction, and possibly stroking the crank. To build just the motor, you will spend around 8k, or 12k+ if you choose to get more wild. In the end, you will not use the power and ride it around at 280 to 320 hp on low boost. You will find more than that is simply too much in the mountains. I suggest riding it in the form you currently have operational with the considerable weight loss before going bananas on the motor. You will spend a fortune to not use the power a stock apex is capable of. In the end, all you need is a set of studs, a shim, valve springs and retianers, and retiming the cams to get in the mid 300s. I would not push past the 340 to 350 hp range...rods and pistons and a closed deck are needed past that. Also, Paul at impulse can hook up a programmed standalone for less than a motec. Go that route. I love my m130 because I can run big ignition coils and flex fuel for mixing race gas with e85. But, honestly you are paying for the name since you will barely touch the functionality of the motec.

You're definitely not wrong with what you posted! I was planning on having hurricane do my engine build to be able to handle 500+ because if youre going to do something... do it right the first time. I had a number of high 300's - 400 useable hp and be able to handle it. I have many projects going on and probably wont have time for dave to do my engine. I ride my apex at 12psi day in and day out, I have turned it up to 18 for some drag race weekends, then right back down to ride it, mainly because it it more responsive and more fun with pump fuel and lighter clutching. Having the right fuel/ignition setup will make this problem go out the window (right along with the dobeck box). I would only want the ability to crank it up for some races every now and then. I have a great deal of self control and knowing the limits of my stuff unlike some people who get carried away with the ability to turn things up past the levels that they should.

I have talked many times with paul, he doesnt have anymore stuff to do a standalone for an apex nowadays.

Martin/Precision Sports will be doing my motec M400. He talked me out of an M130 because he said the fueling tables on the 400 works better with my setup.

Im waiting on suspension parts, along with some more chassis parts before moving forward. Not much to update yet but I will be making forward progress soon.
 
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Sounds like you know what you want. I have used Dave in the past, and he sold me a few parts. Obviously he can make power with the apex engine. I would throw two other names in the ring for consideration. Cody Phillips and Jeff Simons from Simons CPR (apex specialist). You can find jeffs number on snowest under simons cpr and cody has a website...codyphillipsracing.com. If you had a 3 cylinder viper or winder, I would say Brian Crower who recently started building all components to make big power with 3 cylinder engines.

Cody Phillips made the m130 for my SR Viper, and he specializes in the ridiculous. He makes serious power out of everything he touches. To give you an idea, he tunes 700 hp yxz's running methanol, race setup canam X3s, 2000 hp race cars, and he has tuned all turbo sled motors including the m1100, apex, viper/winder/nytro motor, and stroker variants of the engines. Flat out, he knows what he is doing, and he can make the motec do whatever you want. But, with the boost numbers you are talking (<20), you don't need it if your coils can fire effectively.

For example, my sled would start blowing the ignition spark out at 18 psi. More boost wasn't an option regardless of gap. In addition, 18 psi is low boost for me. I can run all the way up to 34 psi, which is way too much (higher levels only require a bigger map sensor and a retune). Next, I ported my head with bigger valves for intake and exhaust, so I had to by a standalone to run it. I sought help from Dave and he sold me on the pcv modified by Dave for secondary injectors after having the boost it box. Neither of these controller could do the job. In the end, Cody was the only person willing to help me build a standalone that could run my factory gauge. The M130 is the only way to go because it has data logging capability, which is critical for remote tuning. The m400 doesn't have it, and you have to hope your motor is the same as a motor precision already tuned. Otherwise, you have to buy a data logger separately. Precision probably wants the m400 because the software components are already made for them to tune it and to display to the gauge. In the least, call Cody and talk to him. My sled rips and it runs big IGN1 race coils, a 4 stage boost switch, and has flex fuel capability whereby my timing curve scales with the alcohol content I run. Stage 1 is gate pressure/limp mode, 2. Low boost, 3. Middle boost, and 4. High boost. The flex fuel and limp mode allows me to safely operate the engine on pump gas if I find myself in a scenario where I ran out of fuel and I have to use pump fuel to get home.
 
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mattymac

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Not much in the update department. I have been busy with my apex but it doesnt look like much has gotten done... been doing a lot of small things.

Welded up dozens of rivet holes, old bolt holes, etc. This chassis went through a few changes before I had picked it up and just wanted to try and clean it up as much as I could.

New tunnel skins, I ended up polishing them. I wanted to powder coat em but I couldnt settle on a color I was excited enough on to go that route.

Zbros has had my front shocks for over 3 months and have jerked me around, still dont have em.

Still working on my engine and fuel/EMS setup. but its moving forward. Had to make a new chaincase guard which is now done, and still trimming plastics to get everything to fit up good. Long ways to go but its moving forward. Sourced a rear double pass vanamburg race tunnel style cooler and did away with the single pass U cooler that was in it.
 

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mattymac

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Nothing special as I have had some health issues ive been dealing with, just getting everything swapped over. There seems to be a few differences between an RX1 and an Apex so I had to move some brackets around to fit the delta box and apex plastics but nothing major. Skid and track are in, with the drop and roll I have 8t 3.0 pitch drivers, a 3" cutdown (2.5") camo extreme, cooling is all done. Ended up using the heat shrink hose clamps on my double pass under the tunnel, those things are pretty sweet and clean up the appearance, also no chance of something hitting the old style hose clamps and breaking them. Front end is finally done, full ti a arms with remote resi triple rate exits, SLP ski's. Found a big crack in my impulse header, got it all welded back up. Working on the fuel system and electrical now, just trying to clean it up inside as much as possible. Still a ways to go but its coming along. Also found out that this sled was originally built for mike irmen, it originally had a built rx1 in it, then he wanted a diamond drive in it. Diamond S converted it to diamond drive, and the power of the RX1 it didnt hold up, so it was converted back to a chaincase, then allegedly Jim hayhurst bought it, and at some point had a Vector engine installed in it for reasons unknown. After a while it was bought back by Nick Shaw who has worked for scott at diamond s for a long time to put the engine into a SXS. So this chassis has been through a lot hence all the repairs I had to do but it seems to be coming along good at this point after countless hours of chipping away at it. When Diamond S was in the business of cranking these out Scott said the could build one of these full mods a month, start to finish! Super impressive to me! Also picked up a Ti nytro also that scott told me was his highest priced customer sled he ever sold. Somewhere in the $45-47,000 range when new! The fab work that they are capable of is absolutely out of this world. Im just trying to clean an older one up and get some use out of it.
 

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mattymac

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moving forward, a lot slower than I would like but thats the way it goes sometimes. Got my M400 finally and mounted up. I still have a ton of small things to get done and wire in. But as of now the motec is in and about 90% ready, just a few things left to botton up on it.
 

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moving forward, a lot slower than I would like but thats the way it goes sometimes. Got my M400 finally and mounted up. I still have a ton of small things to get done and wire in. But as of now the motec is in and about 90% ready, just a few things left to botton up on it.
I see you chose to go with the M400. Looking good! You will notice more power and spool up over the same setup with the old controllers. Good luck with the rest of the build. Hopefully you get to take a rip soon.
 

mattymac

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I see you chose to go with the M400. Looking good! You will notice more power and spool up over the same setup with the old controllers. Good luck with the rest of the build. Hopefully you get to take a rip soon.
I talked to cody and he was more than willing to help get me an M1 but with me having to building the wiring harness, stock injectors, over $8000. It was going to be over 10K all said and done. before it would be running with no extras.

Martin/precision sports is who did my M400 and he has been awesome to deal with, hes already given me one on one time (included with purchase price) with my sled and me through my laptop doing everything in real time while on the phone with him, making sure its 100% right, answering all of my ?'s, at almost 1/3rd of the price.

Both are amazing tuners but martin worked side by side with motec to help engineer and bring the M400 PNP kit to market. For me it was a no brainer.

Should have this on the snow soon. Were getting hammered with snow here in california. Most places are still digging out from the 17+ feet of snow we have gotten.

Ill have more updated completed pics and videos soon.
 
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Cody did mention the price included extra options. Did you get any extras (multimap switch, flex fuel, IGN1 race coils, extra sensors, etc.) with the M400? Or, is it using the factory components? I have a gold box from Martin on a skidoo 1200T. It runs great every time it goes out. That sled is why I put a motec on my viper.

When I built the viper, Cody was the only person willing to help me run a motec using a factory gauge. Martin was tough to get on the phone and did not seem interested. I'm glad things are going well for you. Hopefully, you can weigh the Tipex ready to ride. I'm curious how much it weighs. Great build!
 

kinger9

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Love the build and always wanted a Ti chassis! Working my twincharged build now and I already missed some snow, hoping to be running before it all melts!

 

mattymac

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I had a few things to button up on it before it went to the snow. its done now and ready to put a few miles on it and make sure everything is good on it. Our california snow started out amazing early on and we got dumped on but a few weeks ago it rained up high, then turned off cold so now its just a huge rock hard ice cube so nobody is in a big hurry to go up and try to ride on what we have. Ill have it out soon and get some videos of it running. I also am waiting on my buddy with his sprint car scales to get a weight on it.
 

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mattymac

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Just for comparison this is what the chassis looked like when I bought it.
 

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I had a few things to button up on it before it went to the snow. its done now and ready to put a few miles on it and make sure everything is good on it. Our california snow started out amazing early on and we got dumped on but a few weeks ago it rained up high, then turned off cold so now its just a huge rock hard ice cube so nobody is in a big hurry to go up and try to ride on what we have. Ill have it out soon and get some videos of it running. I also am waiting on my buddy with his sprint car scales to get a weight on it.
So what happened? Did it get tuned in? How much does it weigh?
 

mattymac

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So what happened? Did it get tuned in? How much does it weigh?

The snow where im at turned rock hard and was horrible so I didnt get a ton of time on it, 30 miles or so is all. zero traction but could get it to hook fairly decent past 60mph and did a few 100+ mph pulls and pulled very hard once the track caught up and it could finally get some traction. I still only have it at around 12psi so still low boost for now.

The motec the first ride out was really rich out of the box. got it to probably 90% on the fueling. Just a few minor adjustments and it will be spot on. Ill have it back out on the weekend of the 22nd of this month for one last go.

The scales I used are a friend of a friends. He works some odd hours and we havent been able to get together with his scales and weigh it up. I have 3 sleds I need to weigh so it will get done soon!
 

kinger9

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I weighed my twincharged (twin-pex?? lol) apex here before ANY major weight loss. She was heavy but to be expected. I think I can cut 100lbs off of her. Would love to see what your Ti chassis weighs compared to my stock based one after I am done. Distribution is more important, shoot for 120-130lbs per ski and get the rest to the rear and it will be fun!


Also played around with it on the scales to show how much your body input changes the weights:
 
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