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The BIG 3

Rixster

Well-known member
Premium Member
I couldn't agree more!!!! This guy is right on the money.

Here is an opinion from an auto industry supplier of many years. DJ

*This guy Knox is for real. I heard him talk about it on the radio
Yesterday. He is being called by Congressmen, news organizations, etc.
For interviews. Check out his response to the president of GM North America
And pass it around.
* *Keith * *
Dear Employees & Suppliers, Congress and the
Current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate
Support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most
Difficult economic times in our nation's history. Your elected officials
Must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our
Continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial
Crisis......................As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at
Stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I
Know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.* *Thank you for your
Urgent action and ongoing support.* *Troy Clarke President General Motors
North America *

*Response from:* *Gregory Knox, Pres. *
*Knox Machinery
Company Franklin, Ohio Gentlemen:* *In response to your request to contact
Legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please
Consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clark,
President of General Motors North America.* *Politicians and Management of
The Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has
Spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and
Whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah",
Pres_elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away,
While at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the
Dream"... Believe me folks, The dream is over! This dream where we can
Ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its
Personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been
Filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest
Entitlement minded "laborers"
Without paying the price for these atrocities...this dream where you still
Think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.* *Don't
Even think about telling me I'm wrong. Don't accuse me of not knowing of
What I speak. I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey
Hayes, American Axle and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the
Midwest during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in
These union shops can only be described as disgusting.*
*Troy Clarke,
President of General Motors North America, states: "There is widespread
Sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via
The news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad
Management which it certainly is not." You're right Mr.
Clarke, it's not JUST management...how about the electricians who walk
Around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for
Countless hours while they drag ***...so they can come in on the weekend and
Make double and triple time...for a job they easily could have done within
Their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten
Newbies with all kinds of scare tactics...for putting out too many parts on
A shift...and for being too productive (We certainly must not expose those
Lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific
Underproduction, must we?!?)* *Do you folks really not know about this
Stuff?!? How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:
"over the last few years ...we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps
With our competitors."
What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!? Did we really
JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them? The
K car vs. The Accord? The Pinto vs. The Civic?!? Do I need to go on? What a
Joke!* *We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the
United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins,
Detroit.*

*I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan
Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he
Said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money".
"Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what
People like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the
Sun would in fact rise the next day... And the following very important
Thing would happen...where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new
Efficient ones would pop up...that is how a free market system works...it
Does work...if we would only let it work..."* *But for some nondescript
Reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that
capitalism doesn't work _ that we need the government to step in and "save
us"...Save us my ***, Hell _ we're nationalizing...and unfortunately too
many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is
what is really happening...But, they sure can tell you the stats on their
favorite sports teams...yeah _ THAT'S really important, isn't it...* *Does
it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles,
EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?... How can that be???
Let's see... Fuel efficient... Listening to customers...
Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul...* *Not
being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four
decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of
management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce
costs. Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent
planning... Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the
enemy"... Efficient front and back offices... Non union
Environment...*

*Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone
anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.* *I have
six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to
bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into _ my children do
this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age. I do
for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the
way) _ I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences
of their actions and work through it.* *Radical concept, huh... Am I there
for them in the wings? Of course _ but only until such time as they need to
be fully on their own as adults..* *I don't want to oversimplify a complex
situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the
proper role of parenting and government. Detroit and the United States need
to pay for their sins.*
*Bad news people _ it's coming whether we like it or
not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough
to "make it all go away." I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in"
almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied..."we really might
not do it in a year...or in four..." Where the Hell was that kind of talk
when he was RUNNING for office.* *Stop trying to put off the inevitable
folks ... That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000... People who
jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits... That
job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year...
We really shouldn't allow Wal_Mart to stock their shelves with products
acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the
most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe...* *That
couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living
in that $485,000 home... Let the market correct itself folks _ it will. Yes
it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright
side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that
appreciates what it has...and doesn't live beyond its means...and gets back
to basics...and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the
greatest nation in the history of the world...and probably turns back to
God.*
*Sorry _ don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with
you the "bad news". I hope you take it to heart.* *Gregory J. Knox,
President Knox Machinery, Inc.* *Franklin, Ohio 45005 *
 
improper interference

I totally agree! Let the badly managed companies fail, and then the bad managers would be punished by being out of a job! None of them have any negative consequences for their poor management decisions. They got the companies into this mess, yet THEY are not being held accountable, the taxpayers are. As was stated in the article, let the bad ones fail, and new, more efficient companies will prevail. Out of the ashes, a Phoenix will rise.;)
 
Wow!

That guy gets it!

Extremely well written, like he was sayiing everything I was thinking (and a few things I haven't thought of)!
 
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I can sum up the auto industry problems in one word...

UAW
 
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I can sum up the auto industry problems in one word...

UAW

That is one of the problems for sure.
But, there are many more that start way up in those lofty office suites.
 
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I can sum up the auto industry problems in one word...

UAW

Then why are the non-union transplants hurting too? The Big 3 have many complex problems not just the UAW!
 
They have to go! Keeping them alive with infusions of government money prevents the flow captal to more productive uses. It also makes the US industry a less attractive place for investment/capital. Historically the brutal efficiency of the US economy/free market is what it attractive to global investment and is what produced high returns. With the idiots in DC stepping in, investing in the US is now like a trip to Vegas.......filled with uncertainty and certain to stall any meaningful recovery.

These dopes are cashing in our free market syetem to buy votes. Just terrible.
 
I want to start by saying that we are all individuals with varying opinions. That is all that they are. Please don't take offense to anything I type here. Many times we make judgments with only the facts or partial facts we posses. That said....
Talk about hitting the nail square on the head! For starters, there is no one and I mean no one worth what these CEO's are making. These are not household names nor are they saving the world. And giving the fact that these companies are failing. It becomes quite obvious that these people are undeserving of their wages. A bailout (loan) should automatically mean "your fired".
Employees: I also have to agree with what was said. Again, don't take offense to this. I became well educated on unions last year. (thanks Bull) However, I feel this may be a case where it is hurting the company. Excessively high pay which has to include union dues. Undeserving wages for under producing employees. Adding to the financial strain of these companies. Some may disagree, but from where I stand hard working Americans are few and far between. Most of my employees that think they work so hard are the ones I'm constantly asking why they are standing around.
Back to basics: And I see this in the snowmobile industry as well. Why such an extensive product line? Way to many options. From vehicle models to optional accessories. If they were building what the consumer wanted they wouldn't need to have constant "year end closeouts", 0% financing, and sale after promotion, after sale.
They produce 20 mediocre product lines, but not one top of the line well produced model? Constant TSB's and recalls putting American auto manufactures at the top of the least wanted list. Prices that cannot justify the quality of product.
Again, just my thoughts on this. Should be a good thread. Thanks for posting that.
 
No matter what the situation, taxpayers should not be allowed to be held responsible for the poor descision making of corporate america. Congress is held in the same regard as corporate america to me. When the greed exceeds the means we get to bail them out. THis needs to be stopped immediatley. If Americans were allowed to vote on these issues, no one would get our money, our taxes would be dirt cheap since we would be allowed to keep it and make corporate giants be held responsible for their failures instead.
Imagine all the monay we pay to forein countries, forein wars, corporate failures, ear marks, pork barrel spending and that is just what er are in knowledge of, but imagine this money staying here? We would be in the positive so much they may as well get rid of taxes all together.
 
Then why are the non-union transplants hurting too? The Big 3 have many complex problems not just the UAW!

I don't hear Toyota (USA), Nissan or Honda complaining.

GM pays roughly $6800 per vehicle (doesn't matter if it is a Corvette or Cobalt) in UAW fees. Check and see how much Toyota pays - zilch! The UAW had a time back in the day when workers needed labor protection. But now that protection has inflated and bloated itself into taking to much and become corrupt at various levels.

I agree that the CEO thing is an issue. But you do have to pay a CEO good money. The problem is that they are being paid good money and mis-handling the companies.

So many people feel that we should just let the big 3 sink on principle alone, but that would be a disaster. Think of how much unemployment this country would be paying after that happened. Think of the lay-offs and trickle down effect on everyone from parts, mechanics, shipping, warranties (I have a Chevy!), rental companies, etc.

I think an Auto Industry Czar is the right way to go. We need to make sure that bailout money is going to help. We need to make the UAW reestablish the way it operates. If the UAW does not comply, then the auto company has a choice. Bailout money w/o the UAW or no bailout.
 
Just curious what you guys think would happen to all the local domestic car dealerships if the big three went under? I guess they would probably all go down to or? That really bites that this mismanagement will take out the little guys to.
 
survival of the fittest

I really believe it is inappropriate to bail out these companies and then retain the existing management. Capitalism is based on survival of the fittest. I've read a lot about how many want the Big 3 to file bankruptcy, so they can wipe the slate clean, reorganize to clean out the excess fat, and come back stronger and more efficient. I agree there's plenty of blame to go around. Top management is WAY out of touch. The UAW has become bloated too. How many other companies continue to pay for your health benefits AFTER you retire? I don't know of any around here. Monte makes a good point about all the excess models. Mercedes, BMW, Honda, etc make fewer models which allows them to concentrate on design and quality. I've seen that already with Polaris. A few years ago, I think their book showed over 30 different models.
 
ANY BODY MAKING THE MONEY THOSE WORKERS MAKE FOR NO MORE THAN WHAT DO IS OVER PAID.......................... It's not just that, when you have CEO'S making the money they do let alone the bonuses it's TOTAL INSANITY,,,,, the INCESTUOUS GREED in this country has all but killed it,,,, take that truth and the truth that CONGRESS bends over backwards to please everyone and you have a recipe for disaster. Man I hope people start waking up to this crap.............. This whole thing about just get along has almost sterilized this country to the point that if we don't treat EVERYTHING ON THIS PLANET AS EQUAL the world will end. And when I mean everything I'm talking about the insane left who think we should give personal names too all the little critters!!!YES I BELIEVE IN GOD!!!!! What a GREAT BOOK of wisdom the Bible is....... Too bad more don't read it. And I don't mean read it like a fairy tale book but really get into the language. You would be surprised at what is in the Lords word and,,, how it shows the problems of today..... Ya I know SOME OF YOU will say what a whacko, but believe me when I say this, until 2 years ago I would have said the same thing.... Enough about that, the problems are deep and ongoing. Think of me what you want,I don't care, but, ignore what is going on in this ONCE GREAT COUNTRY and all the things YOU like to do will disappear sooner than you think.....................May GOD spare us for our sins by HIS GRACE AMEN!!!!!!
 
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I completely agree 100% with Mr. Knox. I think the only way we can fix this correctly is let the big 3 fail, file bankruptcy and reorganize. We made a huge mistake bailing out the banks and now everyone thinks they are entitled to a bail out. These bailouts are just delaying the inevitable and will probably be much worse later down the road. I'm no expert on this stuff and I get a headache when I think about this stuff too much but I think we are screwed. We have the same crooks in congress that started the housing mess (Frank, Dodd to name a few) which we reelected again, influencing these decisions based on what will benefit them the most for the next election cycle. As long as we have people in the house and senate, bad decisions will be made, and now with The Great Messiah in office, capitalism may be a thing of the past.
 
Tom Hazlett gets it right in this piece written for the Financial Times. Key paragraphs:

The real problem entailed by the automaker subsidies will never be discussed because it can never be seen. The opportunity cost of shoveling capital to companies such as GM is that companies such as Boeing or United Technologies or Disney or start-ups unknown will be unable to use it to fund their projects. Propping up today’s U.S. car manufacturers means beating down tomorrow’s economic star. In an era of technological leaps, those emergent stars tend to be leapers. The bailout puts the public’s chips on the former, pulling stakes from innovative rivals.

The U.K. ran this experiment in the 1960s, picking national champions that were to push the national economy to the cusp of global dominance. The government selected companies for protection and subsidy, including British Leyland in autos. BL sank so fast that it had to be acquired by the U.K. government in 1975 and over £1bn in public funds were pumped into that nationalized money pit by 1980. National champion? The unsubsidized Ford U.K. overtook BL in the British market. The Thatcher regime sold off BL, liquidating a failed experiment. Competitive car makers–private, unsubsidized and exporting–now dot the English countryside.
 
I happen to be one of those "Lazy overpaid union workers". I work in a Ford facility that employs 1600 hourly union workers. 875 of the 1600 union workers are considered tier 2 employees making $29,000.00 per year with no benefits. The remainder of the employees make around $58,000.00 per year with benefits. I have a family of 4 who's wife doesn't work, a college degree, and I program and maintain millions of dollars worth of robotics equipment for paint operations. I only state this because I'm interested to know what you think a person should make working for the big 3. The union workforce makes up around 9% of Ford Motors annual operating costs, hardly enough to make a major difference in the turnaround of the big three.

We all enjoy a sport that $10,000.00 snowmobiles are common place. I am just interested in what everyone else make per year to maintain this hobby.
 
TFB - I certainly didn't say you or any other UAW worker was lazy. I know someone else did. But wouldn't you agree that there are serious issues between the UAW and the auto manufacturers? And also, there are lazy workers (pretty much anywhere), but they cannot be handled the same as other places of work because the UAW will back them. I certainly don't mean to slap anyone in the face, this is just discussion and opinion.
 
There is a major issue with workers that just collect a paycheck that should be fired tomorrow. I guess what people may not understand is that, in recent years (2001-current), the UAW has done nothing but take concessions to help the Big 3. Today, people are being fired more than I can every remember in my 10 yrs with Ford. These concessions have made Ford much more competitive and I think all of them were necessary. It is frustrating though for those who work hard to be grouped together with the poor work practices of the boom years. I surely see where your coming from though.
 
I happen to be one of those "Lazy overpaid union workers". I work in a Ford facility that employs 1600 hourly union workers. 875 of the 1600 union workers are considered tier 2 employees making $29,000.00 per year with no benefits. The remainder of the employees make around $58,000.00 per year with benefits. I have a family of 4 who's wife doesn't work, a college degree, and I program and maintain millions of dollars worth of robotics equipment for paint operations. I only state this because I'm interested to know what you think a person should make working for the big 3. The union workforce makes up around 9% of Ford Motors annual operating costs, hardly enough to make a major difference in the turnaround of the big three.

We all enjoy a sport that $10,000.00 snowmobiles are common place. I am just interested in what everyone else make per year to maintain this hobby.

I certainly wish you prosperity and I hope you can maintain your wages and benefits. When you ask "what I think a person should make working for the big 3?" I say whatever the market will bear. Clearly, your competition is earning more per dollar spent than the big three. Period. Is this because of incompetent management and mismanaged spending? Lazy overpaid workers? Workers paid to sit on their Azz? adversarial relationships with suppliers? I certainly don't know. But what ever happens, things have to change for your survival. I am worried that a bailout diminishes the driver for healthy change. My hope is that you can increase quality, make cars that people want to buy and decrease costs and increase market share so you maintain your wages. Unfortuneately, I think the realistic side is to slash labor and wages... but I don't wish adveristy on anyone...but I still have to be realistic.

Karl
 
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