Riot trenching

I feel like my 16ktm 450/riot le is trenching in the powder. Handles great on the trail. Track is seeing flat on garage floor, strut rod is shorter than recommended by timbersled by about 1/4 in to accomplish a flat setting track. I've tried raising forks in clamps. They are above the triple clamps by about almost an inch in hopes of bringing the front down to avoid trenching... Am I missing something? Is anyone else having trouble finding the sweet spot in the geometry of this set up?
 
I believe that what you describe was what worried folks about the design. In order to get a "light front-end" you apply a lot of track pressure to the front of the track - which causes trenching in soft conditions. You can't get one without the other.

I have not been around the Riot to know any set-up specifics. Hopefully others on here can help you out. Looks like it will be a fun kit in the right conditions.

For what it is worth, I had the same issues with my Moto Trax kit. Reliability aside, that kit was a lot of fun in the spring snow when you weren't worried about flotation. But in powder, I was digging everywhere I went.
 

hankohlson

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Dec 2, 2007
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It's a balancing act for sure. Less preload on the front track shock will help significantly but takes away from the playfulness. Do you have the LE or standard kit? IMO the best way to set it up so that the clickers do the work of balancing from climb to wheelie mode. I believe guys are recommending 8 11/16" on the rear and 8 5/8" on the front for preload. I'm close to that but haven't measured exactly.
 
It's a balancing act for sure. Less preload on the front track shock will help significantly but takes away from the playfulness. Do you have the LE or standard kit? IMO the best way to set it up so that the clickers do the work of balancing from climb to wheelie mode. I believe guys are recommending 8 11/16" on the rear and 8 5/8" on the front for preload. I'm close to that but haven't measured exactly.
It's the le with the clickers. Im about 185 all geared up and have the preload in front about 8 3/4 and almost 9 on the back spring
 

hankohlson

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I wouldn't necessarily do both but you could experiment. With the light rear spring rate and preload, it wouldn't hurt ski pressure much in wheelie mode to have the rear of the rails hit ever so slightly before the rest of the rails. That would make for a nicer ramping effect to get up on the snow in get-r-done mode. I think I may try this on mine too.

I'm no geometry expert but I've played around it a bit. I was under my pro rmk last night and was surprised how much sooner the rear of the rails hit before the middle or front.
 

teal_210

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Suspension set-up is critical on the riot. I don't know that you're helping anything by raising your forks and shortening the strut rod. Seems that that would put a lot of weight on the front track shock but I don't know. Anyways - here's what I'm running.

19 Ktm 450sx
Forks at the 1st line
Strut rod per Timbersled spec.
1/2" preload on the front track shock.
1/4" preload on the rear track shock.

For powder and climbing I leave the front on soft or medium and the rear on hard.

Switching the rear to medium causes trenching when there is no base but is a lot more fun to ride.

I've noticed that in the bumps and rough stuff this kit likes my body weight to be as far back as possible, it really smooths out and does not kick. In the powder it likes the opposite, I'm often standing and leaning over the bars will all my weight forward. It climbs back up on the snow when I do this.

The more I ride this kit the more I'm impressed by it. It almost seems like the kit is breaking and and starting to work properly - or I'm adjusting my riding style and body positioning to work with the kit, I don't know. I do know this kit is a blast to ride and I feel performs much better than my aro 120 did. I was giggling in my helmet on the last ride when I hit an opening in the trees and almost looped out in 3rd gear wide open.
 
Thanks for the responses, it helps knowing what's working for everybody. When setting on the garage floor, mine looks low in the back. Maybe I'll try lengthening strut rod and forks to level it out a bit. Even though the track sets flat, I feel like the geometry must be off with the back of the bike low and the forks way up in the clamps. Do you guys have a pretty level track on the floor or is it touching front or back first when you lift the back of the track off the floor?
 
Dec 20, 2007
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It sounds like you are right on the edge between wheelie mode and float mode which is a good place to be if it still feels playfull and light on the ski. Try leaning forward more and see if it will get on top and stay there. If you slide the forks back down or lengthen the strut it might float and go a little faster in 3rd gear but then you might start getting stuck more in 1st and 2nd and for sure be way less fun to ride. I'm starting to feel like If you want speed above 3rd in deep snow buy a Aro 3, Aro 137 or a sled. My riot feels just like a bike. I can acually pull the ski out of the snow in deep powder! Its not the fastest setup but it doesn't get stuck and goes anywhere.

When you have ski presure the ski is a brake and slows you down. Once you get moving its not as bad and even helps if you have enough speed to plane out it carries some of the weight. Like a boat when you plane out you go much faster.

The perfect setup is a moving target earlier this season there was no base at all and I was running extreame wheelie mode just to get around. 3rd gear was never an option. Now I can get third easily and I turned up the rear spring to add another 1/4" of pre-load. There is traqction now so the traction plus horsepower makes it wheelie. it suposed to snow the next 6 days so floating is probably not going to be an option for a while. Keep in mind my favorite kind ofJanuary Utah pow you will never plane out on... its in your face all day....
 

CATSLEDMAN1

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Nov 27, 2007
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Been playing with settings on my Riot/KTm500. I can say, in some new deep powder, my riding partner on his ARO KTM 450 riding a gentle uphill grade two track, he was going down in new dense deep, I could go around him for 75 yards then start loosing ground speed and he went around me, we leap frogged along and decided enough was enough, tooo hard on the engines. "But same track different kits, very much the same for deep snow going.
 

cbc76am

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This aligns with my experience. pre-load nice and soft a 8.5 inches on both or so and it's lifting and an absolute blast to ride but the ski is planing under throttle while the track cuts in... it's more trench and risk of wheelie on hills. Adding preload certainly reduces this problem, but makes the front heavier. I'm happy with changing setting for the day. with no locking collars on the shocks, adding 1/2 inch of preload to the shocks for a deep day isn't an issue. the clickers i'm not sure about. Front makes a difference for bumps but i've not felt much change in riding with powder. Rear I can't tell much difference soft to medium anywhere, but stiff is almost lockout and terrible for anything other than getting up a huge climb.

As much as the ski lift is a smile maker, I'm going to be adding pre-load until I find a sweet spot where the track floats a bit more. The right mix will be found soon.

Your forks are pretty deep in the clamps, but going the other way won't help your track stay up.
 

needpowder

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Suspension set-up is critical on the riot. I don't know that you're helping anything by raising your forks and shortening the strut rod. Seems that that would put a lot of weight on the front track shock but I don't know. Anyways - here's what I'm running.

19 Ktm 450sx
Forks at the 1st line
Strut rod per Timbersled spec.
1/2" preload on the front track shock.
1/4" preload on the rear track shock.

For powder and climbing I leave the front on soft or medium and the rear on hard.

Switching the rear to medium causes trenching when there is no base but is a lot more fun to ride.

I've noticed that in the bumps and rough stuff this kit likes my body weight to be as far back as possible, it really smooths out and does not kick. In the powder it likes the opposite, I'm often standing and leaning over the bars will all my weight forward. It climbs back up on the snow when I do this.

The more I ride this kit the more I'm impressed by it. It almost seems like the kit is breaking and and starting to work properly - or I'm adjusting my riding style and body positioning to work with the kit, I don't know. I do know this kit is a blast to ride and I feel performs much better than my aro 120 did. I was giggling in my helmet on the last ride when I hit an opening in the trees and almost looped out in 3rd gear wide open.
Hey teal, what do you weigh? Also, do you like your fork set up? Obviously KTM and Yamaha are a bit different but…
 

byeatts

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Nov 29, 2007
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I feel like my 16ktm 450/riot le is trenching in the powder. Handles great on the trail. Track is seeing flat on garage floor, strut rod is shorter than recommended by timbersled by about 1/4 in to accomplish a flat setting track. I've tried raising forks in clamps. They are above the triple clamps by about almost an inch in hopes of bringing the front down to avoid trenching... Am I missing something? Is anyone else having trouble finding the sweet spot in the geometry of this set up?
Incredible. The Riot design Will trench, Anytime the front is allowed to raise on any track type kit Sled or snowbike kit they will trench .This is not news and has been the rule for the last 20 years of snow building .
 
Incredible. The Riot design Will trench, Anytime the front is allowed to raise on any track type kit Sled or snowbike kit they will trench .This is not news and has been the rule for the last 20 years of snow building .
I wasn't complaining about the new kit, just hoping to tap into the more experienced folks on the forum to help get it set up right. I appreciate all the responses and hearing what's working for everybody... So are you saying that by raising my forks in the clamps, I am creating a trenching situation?
 

cbc76am

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Potentially... The balance of fork height and strut length with preload is a complex push and pull. Adding weight to the ski helps the track stay up. How you achieve that is very flexible. Try moving them, a day of testing is a great thing. Try adding spring preload to the rear shock. Try changing strut length... One at a time.... and maybe even take notes :)
 

needpowder

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I'm about 160 normally. I little more right now.:(

I do like my fork set-up. Have ran close to the same setting since 2016. RG3 valving and heavy duty springs. Ran the same set-up on my 16-18 yamaha's.
Nice. I was 162 this morning. Have almost lost the holiday pounds.??Our set ups and experience seem very similar. I don’t have valving in my forks but they are .62 Springs. Running just a couple pounds of air with compression damping backed off a bit. Seem a little but I am afraid to change because I really like to catch air. And without air I bottom them out on any decent jump. Probably should just spend the money on valving but the holidays have crushed my bank account.
 
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