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You said 12-15 has more negative caster. The caster is positive on both, but the angle of positive caster is less on 12-15. I get what you meant, but no negative caster.
one more year for cat to test the supposed new sled
- Thread starter hansenmac
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You said 12-15 has more negative caster. The caster is positive on both, but the angle of positive caster is less on 12-15. I get what you meant, but no negative caster.
Over the 2012/15 setup they ARE an improvement in most ways. Like I said, the newer setup lightens up the steering but it's a little more than just caster angle. If you want to take that to slightly more extreme, look at the barcode arms that move the skis even further forward. It's another way to lighten it up even more, but with their own tradeoffs. What I wanted to work on was something steeper like the older spindles but also further forward. That would achieve a little lighter steering but also help the skis bite better when initiating and maintaining sidehills on funky snow.
I don't mean to compare the 16 to the 12 as much as the point was to compare it to another design completely.
Cat needs to get some weight off the front first and foremost. But everyone including cat knows that so hopefully that gets done. Then they can mess with the caster to make the skis flop less.
I may be in the minority but it's the most obvious thing about cats when I get back on one these days. There's likely a happy medium in there somewhere that maintains some of the freight train stability of a cat, but adds some more precision in countersteering like a poo.
But I'll not buy another cat until they address that, with a few other things. They've made tons of improvements in skid geometry and leverage ratios but it's still a trail sled front end chassis, with a bunch of after the fact bandaids to make them better in the hills.
Wasn't it a 10° increase in caster?
17° - 27°¿
How about something in between.
I remember someone talking about building different arms to try lower 20's.
Possibly Mac.
I agree that the caster seems more than ideal. And seems a bit more exaggerated with elevate.
I am anxious and eager to, see and try Cats new sled!
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17° - 27°¿
How about something in between.
I remember someone talking about building different arms to try lower 20's.
Possibly Mac.
I agree that the caster seems more than ideal. And seems a bit more exaggerated with elevate.
I am anxious and eager to, see and try Cats new sled!
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Is your elevate observation from seat time or ?
I've had the elevate on my Alpha since it came out, same with Khaos.
I like the elevate and prefer both sleds lifted. It would be nice if the Alpha had a touch less caster though.
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I like the elevate and prefer both sleds lifted. It would be nice if the Alpha had a touch less caster though.
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Stock skis?
For me most of kidwoos descriptions are eliminated by the Mohawk skis on our Alphas. I’ve got a tweaked spindle so I’m about to put taller ones on and wanted to clarify your statement….
Stock skis and grippers.
Grippers push a lot in powder on the cat but steer so much easier in spring snow. That's kinda how i ran them, cat ski in powder and gripper in firm snow.
Cats steering definitely flops compared to Polaris. Straighten the caster some will help a lot but still need weight off the skis.
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Grippers push a lot in powder on the cat but steer so much easier in spring snow. That's kinda how i ran them, cat ski in powder and gripper in firm snow.
Cats steering definitely flops compared to Polaris. Straighten the caster some will help a lot but still need weight off the skis.
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what would you say is the better all-around ski? I have a 2021, but have a set of grippers laying around. I'm in western wa and ride the same type of snow as you
Mohawks for me float in powder and steer in hard.
Keep in mind that with the Alpha rail the pivot point at the track is further in toward the center of the sled than with a twin rail. If you think about what happens when you pull the sleds over on edge the top of the spindle rocks backward ever so slightly. This should happen to an even greater effect with the alpha roll point being further inboard. How much greater I'm not sure without having two of them with equal setup side by side. When the track slides down behind you in a side hill it happens even more. So taking that into consideration what is the optimal castor angle for a twin rail setup may not be the same as for an Alpha rail setup. I think Cat and even Ice Age know this. They just don't want to tool up and build revised spindles or arms with a new chassis on the horizon. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a front suspension design with less +castor on the new unit while sticking with the Alpha skid type design.
I didn't notice any unwanted ski pull on my twin rail when rolling up on edge going to the 2016+ spindle geometry over 2012-2015 geometry. I did notice it seemed to take less counter steer for the same maneuvers off trail. Adding the Elevate spindles with my raised Kmod skid last year did give me a little bit of ski pull rolling up on edge in the garage. I moved the mounting position of my skis on the SLP saddles and it helped some. I haven't really noticed an issue in the snow with it yet, but that tells me as the front end is being raised with spindles some things are changing. Again going to be multiplied by the Alpha pivot point.
I still run powder pros for flotation and bite in the softer early season snow. Go back to Cat Proclimb 7 G2 (stock since 2019) skis in the spring for a little more slip and easier steering in heavier snow conditions.
I didn't notice any unwanted ski pull on my twin rail when rolling up on edge going to the 2016+ spindle geometry over 2012-2015 geometry. I did notice it seemed to take less counter steer for the same maneuvers off trail. Adding the Elevate spindles with my raised Kmod skid last year did give me a little bit of ski pull rolling up on edge in the garage. I moved the mounting position of my skis on the SLP saddles and it helped some. I haven't really noticed an issue in the snow with it yet, but that tells me as the front end is being raised with spindles some things are changing. Again going to be multiplied by the Alpha pivot point.
I still run powder pros for flotation and bite in the softer early season snow. Go back to Cat Proclimb 7 G2 (stock since 2019) skis in the spring for a little more slip and easier steering in heavier snow conditions.
Run both at the same time.
One on the right and the other on the left.
Tip back and forth on one ski and see how different the skis react.
When u get bored, take both sets with you and swap them on the hill so u can see which u prefer.
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Id have to look at my notes but theres definite gains to be found by less castor on an elevated Alpha. Moving the upper balljoint 3/8 forward sticks in my head as the right number.
so about the distance that the 2" longer spindles move the skis forward? sounds about right.
i realize the hangup on the caster angle could just be the guys with longer spindles at that 27 degree angle vs. stock setup.
The 'big out front' cat skis move even more out front, yuck. SLP skis have two mount positions for the saddles which is nice.
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Yeah I hope so to. Love Cat but they one more year'd me into a Polaris last season.
I'm glad I was bored and read this thread because it is relevent to me. I am a Polaris guy and my favorite sled is my 2019 RMK 850 174. I sold my 21 Khaos this year but will keep the RMK. What I liked about the Khaos is the lighter steering and have been trying to emulate that on the 174. Two years (before the Khaos) ago I built some custom top A-Arms to push the top spindle mount forward to reduce the caster. I only went 5/8" and in hindsight this was not enough to make it light enough, although it helped. The idea was to have the skis turn without scrubbing so much. The "more caster" that Polaris designed into these sleds does keep the sled going straight when you let go of the bars and reduces twitchiness that a straight up and down spindle would have you experience. The thing is I don't believe one caster angle is good for all sled lengths. Shorter skids are naturally more twitchy and steer easier so those should have more caster and longer sleds less caster. If I had the energy to do it again I would make the top mount adjustable and try to get at least 1" of movement. I am not sure if this is relevent to Cats but figured I would throw it out for those who are pondering customization to get your sled to act like it should.
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