New thread engine fail discussion

[dooman92]

a discussion started in Toby's new build thread regarding engine failures and oil. Hopefully we can continue that discussion and avoid hijacking that thread any further.
Byeats, regarding your question about Mobil 1. I've used the stuff that chadx posted the picture of for three years in two different bikes. 17 fx and 18 500 exc. I've had both clutches apart and no sign of burning or slipping. Plate thickness was in spec. So, does it work with wet clutch, I'd say yes. But, I am not the best test subject as I never slip the clutch under load.

Regarding the shell rotella comment about inferior product. Imo, it is not an inferior product for the diesel application for which it is designed. Diesel engines spread loads over much larger areas and therefor the psi load is drastically less than the loads in our high performance light weight smaller is better bike engines. A high film strength oil is far less important in the diesel compared to the heavily loaded big end rod needle bearing in our jap bikes. I believe ktm went to the plain bearing on crank pin for that reason. With two maybe three times the surface area to distribute the load the ktm crank will tolerate an oil with less film strength.

Take a look at this blog, 540ratblog.wordpress.com
Author is mechanical engineer and tested 235 oils including film strength. Rotella 5w40 full synthetic tested at 67,800 psi. Mobil 1 0w-40 tested at 127,000 psi. There were 199 oils that tested better than rotella for film strength. Most diesel oils had far less film strength than gas engine oils. When the film strength is exceeded you have metal on metal contact.
As a 50 yr grease monkey and former auto tech instructor, I agreed with the authors opinions and testing. He also comments on the auto oil in wet clutch debate that I also agree with. Unfortunately, a long read but, very interesting.

Appreciate hearing from those who have had engine failures. It might be possible to see correlation between oil and failure?

 

[Ktm300]

Very interesting read. Does anyone know what the film strength is on that Timbersled 0w40 oil ? I’m assuming it’s a re-branded oil that timbersled put their name on. I’ve been using it because it’s readily available to me. Seems to be working good so far, mix of lugging and rev-limiter riding on my YZ. I originally got it just because it was a 0 weight oil that was also Jaso Ma rated.

 

[dooman92]

Ktm300, regarding timbersled 0w-40, unfortunately film strength numbers are not part of any literature ( marketing ) I've seen. It is probably made by whoever makes Polaris oil products. If you knew that, might find a comparable on that blog and find a number. Generally, material safety data sheets will be identical between the manufacturer of the oil and the oil under the marketed name. On a positive it is advertised as 100% pao, which in my research results in better film strength. Seems to check all the boxes for a great oil.

 

[byeatts]

a discussion started in Toby's new build thread regarding engine failures and oil. Hopefully we can continue that discussion and avoid hijacking that thread any further.
Byeats, regarding your question about Mobil 1. I've used the stuff that chadx posted the picture of for three years in two different bikes. 17 fx and 18 500 exc. I've had both clutches apart and no sign of burning or slipping. Plate thickness was in spec. So, does it work with wet clutch, I'd say yes. But, I am not the best test subject as I never slip the clutch under load.

Regarding the shell rotella comment about inferior product. Imo, it is not an inferior product for the diesel application for which it is designed. Diesel engines spread loads over much larger areas and therefor the psi load is drastically less than the loads in our high performance light weight smaller is better bike engines. A high film strength oil is far less important in the diesel compared to the heavily loaded big end rod needle bearing in our jap bikes. I believe ktm went to the plain bearing on crank pin for that reason. With two maybe three times the surface area to distribute the load the ktm crank will tolerate an oil with less film strength.

Take a look at this blog, 540ratblog.wordpress.com
Author is mechanical engineer and tested 235 oils including film strength. Rotella 5w40 full synthetic tested at 67,800 psi. Mobil 1 0w-40 tested at 127,000 psi. There were 199 oils that tested better than rotella for film strength. Most diesel oils had far less film strength than gas engine oils. When the film strength is exceeded you have metal on metal contact.
As a 50 yr grease monkey and former auto tech instructor, I agreed with the authors opinions and testing. He also comments on the auto oil in wet clutch debate that I also agree with. Unfortunately, a long read but, very interesting.

Appreciate hearing from those who have had engine failures. It might be possible to see correlation between oil and failure?

good info!

 

[byeatts]

there was some confusion ewe mentioned the mobile 1 was a diesel oil however the photo ewe sent was for European cars?

 

[coryf89]

wow. really. ive been a rotella t4 user for years, in everything from my TDI VW to the 5.9L cummins, the ktm 2 stroke clutch and the ktm 450 big bore motor.

very interesting stuff....

 

[dooman92]

there was some confusion ewe mentioned the mobile 1 was a diesel oil however the photo ewe sent was for European cars?

Byeatts, the photo of the mobile 1 was posted by chadx I believe. But, it is the stuff I use. No where on the container does it limit the oil to gas or diesel. The manufactures mentioned on the label make cars with both gas and Diesel engines I believe. From memory, I believe there are specification certifications on the container for both gas and Diesel engines.

Coryf89, I don't recall whether the t4 was ever tested on that blog. But, I'm sure it would work fine in the diesels you referenced. They are a different animal compared to our high performance bike engines.

 

[NEWDUCK]

wow. really. ive been a rotella t4 user for years, in everything from my TDI VW to the 5.9L cummins, the ktm 2 stroke clutch and the ktm 450 big bore motor.

very interesting stuff....

Me too. Well anything with a clutch I use t4 but everything else I own runs t6.... My R6 is the only thing that sees mass rpm(15k) but that has the t4 in it.

 

[Chadx]

there was some confusion ewe mentioned the mobile 1 was a diesel oil however the photo ewe sent was for European cars?

The words "car" and "diesel" are not mutually exclusive. In Europe, quite the opposite. The majority of cars sold and driven in most of Europe ARE diesels. For example, the German manufacturers send us the gas versions of their cars and SUVs and keep all, or most, of the good diesel versions for themselves. Ha. The Mobil 1 oil I mentioned is a diesel oil, but not limited to diesels. It meets gas and diesel standards. I call it a diesel oil because it's rated for diesels and you'll find that, like most heavier diesel rated oils (40 weight and up), it lacks the "energy conserving" additives that make wet clutches slip. Never use oils, in wet clutch applications, that have the words "energy conserving" within the badge on the back. That would be most automobile oils; dino and synthetic. They tend to have friction modifiers that make wet clutches slip. Not a cut and dry rule, but a reasonable guideline.

I used to use rotella 5w-40 synthetic. Never had any issues. Switched to Mobil 1 0w-40 because I valued an oil with better flow at cold temps but still wanted a 40 weight oil. Also never had any issues with this oil. I'll run Mobil 1 0w-40 in my new build this year...though I do have a quart of the arctic cat 0w-40 laying here too and is actually rated as JASO- MA (motorcycle oil and so wetclutch safe). I'll try it since I have it, but it costs twice as much and no evidence it is any better than Mobil 1.

I also have friends with cheap access to Yamaha 0w-40 snowmobile oil for themselves and they have used it in their snowbikes for years with no issues (no wetclutch slip and no engine issues) but it would also cost me twice as much as Mobil 1 and no evidence it is better so I'll stick with Mobil 1 for now.

 

[dooman92]

The words "car" and "diesel" are not mutually exclusive. In Europe, quite the opposite. The majority of cars sold and driven in most of Europe ARE diesels. For example, the German manufacturers send us the gas versions of their cars and SUVs and keep all, or most, of the good diesel versions for themselves. Ha. The Mobil 1 oil I mentioned is a deisel oil, but not limited to diesels. It meets gas and diesel standards. I call it a diesel oil because it's rated for diesels and you'll find that, like most heavier diesel rated oils (40 weight and up), it lacks the "energy conserving" additives that make wet clutches slip. Never use oils, in wet clutch applications, that have the words "energy conserving" within the badge on the back. They tend to have friction modifiers that make wet clutches slip. Not a cut and dry rule, but a reasonable guideline.

I used to use rotella 5w-40 synthetic. Never had any issues. Switched to Mobil 1 0w-40 because I valued an oil with better flow at cold temps but still wanted a 40 weight oil. Also never had any issues with this oil. I'll run Mobil 1 0w-40 in my new build this year...though I do have a quart of the arctic cat 0w-40 laying here too and is actually rated as JASO- MA (motorcycle oil and so wetclutch safe). I'll try it since I have it, but it costs twice as much and no evidence it is any better than Mobil 1.

I also have friends with access to Yamaha 0w-40 snowmobile oil and they have used it in their snowbikes for years with no issues (no wetclutch slip and no engine issues) but it would also cost me twice as much as Mobil 1 and no evidence it is better so I'll stick with Mobil 1 for now.

I agree, those considerations, along with the high film strength info that I found, are what led me to the 0-40 mobile 1. I also used rotella t-6 prior to the mobile 1 without issue. But, I'm a poor test subject as I limit lug and seldom hit the rev limiter so my engines would tolerate a lower film strength oil. I put 300 snow hrs on a te510 husky and only adjusted valves, I think once. It had rotella 5-40 for those 300 hrs.

For about 25 yrs I was certified in all aspects of both auto and heavy equipment repair. So, having some insight into the function of oil in different applications I was always a bit nervous about an oil primarily designed for a large Diesel engine in my small high performance gas engine. I have been reading/searching for relevant info about rotella since I started using it nearly 5 yrs ago. When I found that blog, it unfortunately confirmed my suspicion that it might have different characteristics than a high performance gas engine oil, including less film strength.

When I examined the crank failure (big end rod bearing) on my buddy's 450fx with about 80 hrs on the engine, my experience and training told me lubrication (film strength failure), he was using t6 5/40. He rides harder and pushes the limits of the engine. He rode a ktm with plain bearing prior without issue on mostly t-6. I now know of at least three 450yami that have lost this same bearing while using t-6. In that engine, imo, the highest metal to metal surface load requiring a film strength that protects against metal on metal contact is in that bearing. There is no area in a heavy Diesel engine with a similar load requiring the same film strength.

Sorry so long a post, hopefully others are interested in discussions that could have impact on engine durability.

Appreciate info/input from those who have had crank/engine failures.

 

[byeatts]

The Information ewe all have presented is valuable and compelled me to switch to Mobile 1 , Thank Ewe.

 

[Chadx]

Agreed. Thanks dooman for the info and for starting this new thread.

...and I sure which Chris/snowest would eliminate the silly webiste automation that replaces "y o u" with "ewe". Ha.

 

[dooman92]

Had a brain fart. When I made that comment about film strength pressures in a Diesel engine I was thinking crank and valve train. Some of the newer high pressure fuel injection systems have significant load requiring high film strength engine oil. I think that is part of ford's spec requiring additional zinc or phosphorus in their spec. Imo, still not the extremes that big end needle bearing is exposed to. Fwiw.

 

[powdermuncher]

All the specs decrease with age and contamination if you run fresh oil it is amazing what you can get away with.
I found shifting smoothness and clutch feel much improved with Yamalube 0 40 over diesel or similar automotive oils. So after trying a few different oils I settled on it for all bikes 450 snowbike and 250 smoker in the transmission( year round) just feels like it is made for it and gives me the best feel on shifting and clutch both stock on the Ktm 250 and Recluse on the YZ 450.

 

[coryf89]

The Information ewe all have presented is valuable and compelled me to switch to Mobile 1 , Thank Ewe.

same here! can you guys post a pic of this jug of Mobil 1? can it be bought at wal mart? I assume we want the 0w stuff?

if its the stuff I googled its about $15L a liter or $50 for a 4 liter jug of it.

my t6 costs me $160 per 20L pail so $8 a liter.

 

[Chadx]

same here! can you guys post a pic of this jug of Mobil 1? can it be bought at wal mart? I assume we want the 0w stuff?

if its the stuff I googled its about $15L a liter or $50 for a 4 liter jug of it.

my t6 costs me $160 per 20L pail so $8 a liter.

Cory, see attached. It's the Mobil 1 0w-40 "European car formula" version. Not sure canadian dollar cost, but in the U.S., it's around $25 for the big 5 quart (1.25 gallon, 4.73 liter) jug.

[Update: I just looked and walmart did a price rollback on mobil 1 and now it's $19.99 for the 5 quart jug! ]

 

[coryf89]

can it be bought in 18.9L pails?

 

[AK1000]

Been using this for 4 seasons, helped shifting in cold weather a lot.

 

[dooman92]

Ak1000, that is probably a very good oil with great film strength. Unfortunately, I don't think it was tested in that blog. But, he tested quite a few amsoil oils and most tested very well. Some of the best oils were Amsoil. Validates some of their claims.

 

[RmK8oo]

Been using this for 4 seasons, helped shifting in cold weather a lot.
View attachment 335469

Just poured this in my bike the other day. Amsoil is hard to beat.