Mike Wiegele: A Constructive Plan

[mountainhorse]

I have a hunch that Mr. Wiegele will continue to work towards his interests this summer and drop MORE "Media Bombs" on the snowmobile community in general.

This will affect both USA and Canadian riders in the near future.

This issue will actually BUILD momentum over the summer... not wait for next season.

This matter needs to covered by the Media from the sledders perspective in a way that shows concern for our own activities in the backcountry and being involved in legeslation BEFORE the public at large develops an attitude that will dictate public land use policy.

Having an AVY clinic at "Weigele Ground Zero" and publicly inviting him to participate is one way to stay proactive.

 

[UintaVentureBoys]

I have a hunch that Mr. Wiegele will continue to work towards his interests this summer and drop MORE "Media Bombs" on the snowmobile community in general.

This will affect both USA and Canadian riders in the near future.

This issue will actually BUILD momentum over the summer... not wait for next season.

This is not something that will wait till next season.

This needs to covered by the Media from the sledders perspective in a way that shows concern for our own activities in the backcountry and being involved in legeslation BEFORE the public at large develops an attitude that will dictate public land use policy.

Agreed completely.. It's not going to go away even if we did have a nation wide avalanche class and everyone attended, it still going to be here. these liberals don't care what we do to better the safety of our sport, heck half of them live in the south and don't even see snow!!! But Mr. Weigel is using this sport to raise publicity, if he can actually make things happen is another story. The sport of snowmobiling has been around for at least a century, do you really think he can demolish a million peoples hobby (let alone the small businesses involved with the spot) by publicly humiliating the snowmobiling communiity?? Im not bashin but its CRAP!! Although, ALTHOUGH it is up to US as the snowmobile community to ensure our own safety and be aware of the possible dangers involved in this sport. We need to take the steps to stay alive REGARDLESS of experience!!! Many experienced and very well know riders have lost their lives this last year and the numbers ARE crippling and hard to read, but it still happens.. Everyone always wants to go bigger, bit the bigger the sled, the bigger the climb, the bigger the risk, and thats a choice we as riders make. With ever choice comes a consequence, are you all ready to face that consequence?? make the right choices and train yourselves to save your life.. thats the only way these liberals will leave us alone is if we self sustain the sport and lower the death average.. lets all work together and make this happen!

 

[mountainhorse]

I don't think it is a liberal vs. conservative issue here...

Wiegele's operation is about as environmentally responsible as the Exxon Valdez incident. Big old Helis making HUGE noise and spewing Jet A in the backcontry is not a treehugger thing... It is a big $$ business thing.

Lets not get sidetracked into something else... that is another battle to be addressed.

Wiegele is using the tragedy of avy deaths as a foot in the door to regulate sleds out of "HIS" area.

A very smart plan on his part as the Avy Deaths will get much more attention, quicker, than the "Green" approach. He won't want to go down that road.

The other heli operators in the area like Selkirk Tangiers, Mica Creek and others should be concerned as well. Once Mr. Wiegele starts to point mainstream public concern towards the backcountry use... all will suffer and he wont be able to close that can of worms up.... especially if he galvanizes the sledding community against him with Blue River closures or BC wide closures...

Unfortunately PERCEPTION is what shapes public policy (laws and regulations)...

This PERCEPTION will be the "death nail" if not brough into check soon.

Some of the organizations for the sledding community, like SAWS, will need to open a conversation with Mike Weigele directly that will outline the damage that Mr. Weigele will cause himself and his business if his current path contiues.

 

[mountainhorse]

Oh.. and as for the "I know the dangers of the backcountry" perspective and "I accept the risk"....

Baloney.

If your Son/Daughter/Wife/Husband/Best friend is buried... you will call in ALL assistance that you can.
That would include SAR, Wiegle or the tooth fairy if she could help.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT !!!

We need to have some grassroots to Manufacturer involvement in the education and preperation of people who buy backcountry sleds.
BRP, Polaris, Yamaha and Cat should all have programs for this if they want to protect their most important issue here... their bottom line.

 

[UintaVentureBoys]

I was referring to the soloists at large but yeah you have a point, but like i said, choice brings consequence.. you decide to take people with you, your responsible for them. And hell yeah if your friends, families, whatever get caught in a life or death situation of course you'll call support.. But if its just you, you are accepting the risk

 

[Trenchmaster]

Mountainhorse I'm not trying to minimize or argue with your perception of Mr Wigiele's comments, but I think the whole thing has been over blown. This guy is hated in Blue River by most of the locals, that I have talked to. If we (sledders) make this in to a big issue, Wegiele will get more exposure, which is what he wants. The towns in the area depend on sledders to keep them going in the winter. Wigieles business in Blue River only goes to support Mike Wigiele, if he keeps talking, rational people will realize how self serving his crap is!!!

 

[UintaVentureBoys]

Mountainhorse I'm not trying to minimize or argue with your perception of Mr Wigiele's comments, but I think the whole thing has been over blown. This guy is hated in Blue River by most of the locals, that I have talked to. If we (sledders) make this in to a big issue, Wegiele will get more exposure, which is what he wants. The towns in the area depend on sledders to keep them going in the winter. Wigieles business in Blue River only goes to support Mike Wigiele, if he keeps talking, rational people will realize how self serving his crap is!!!

Agreed! the less attention his plan gets, the better for us.. soon it'll taper off into thin air

 

[maxwellzx]

Oh.. and as for the "I know the dangers of the backcountry" perspective and "I accept the risk"....

Baloney.

If your Son/Daughter/Wife/Husband/Best friend is buried... you will call in ALL assistance that you can.
That would include SAR, Wiegle or the tooth fairy if she could help.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT !!!

We need to have some grassroots to Manufacturer involvement in the education and preperation of people who buy backcountry sleds.
BRP, Polaris, Yamaha and Cat should all have programs for this if they want to protect their most important issue here... their bottom line.

if you dont have them out by the time wiegles environmentally friendly "green" low noise chopper gets there most likely its too late.

 

[mountainhorse]

All respect for your comments, but when People that I know in Taos New Mexico and New York have heard Weigele's last media stunt... I'm not sure it will "fade away"

Hope I'm wrong...

More people in the backcountry now than ever, Avy awareness and education need to be stepped up a bit... why not use this a way to improve public opinion???

 

[UintaVentureBoys]

All respect for your comments, but when People that I know in Taos New Mexico and New York have heard Weigele's last media stunt... I'm not sure it will "fade away"

Hope I'm wrong...

More people in the backcountry now than ever, Avy awareness and education need to be stepped up a bit... why not use this a way to improve public opinion???

Completely agree! The awareness of the risks aren't meant to be taken lightly. its a very serious issue. I lost 2 friends this last year and it was all an ego issue. they had been warned of the avalanche danger being in the red zone this year but they still took the risk, and paid with their lives. Everyone needs to step up their safety standards and learn to follow that gut instinct. Sure the sled might be able to climb it, but can it out run a 100+mph avalanche??? im sure it won't. Maybe Weigels theory won;t fade away, but he doesn't need to get the snowmobiling community all riled up over it, its probably a publicity stunt anyways, and the more attention snowmobilers at large give him, the more successful he'll feel, and the battle is what fuels the arrogance. We should just go about our business and protect ourselves by attending avalanche classes and cpr/first aid and all the stuff we SHOULD know. I get my ava safety renewed every year. someone is always coming up with new stuff we should all be aware of.. i've seen and agreed with a signature on here, it say's "avalanche safety, its a way of life." we should all live by this slogan, and the media will leave us alone i hope

 

[DRD]

I don't think Avy training will put an appreciable dent in accidents/fatalities. Look to something as obvious as drinking and driving, everyone knows it's dangerous, but thousands are killed every year. There will always be people who say it won't happen to them, or they will get caught up in the thrill and exercise poor judgement. Are there really sledders out there that are so oblivious to the dangers that they need a two day course that just barely scratches the surface to be safe? They don't listen to the news? I took a Zac's course and it was great, but in no way does it make me an avalanche forecaster. Unless you are willing to stake your life that the conditions are safe, stay off the slope. It's all about managing the risk, or how much you are willing to take. Someone will always push the limits and pay the price.

 

[kane13]

It seems they are keeping track of all recreational users now , i heard on the radio today 8 deaths in B.C. this May long weekend. None were snowmobiling deaths, one atv, a few drownings, the rest were mva's on their way to recreation areas. It seems the media and Govt have really got a hard on for all recreational users right now not just snowmobilers, something is happening here and it won't be long now till big changes are going to be made in the way our outdoors are being managed. I think in time all users will have to take a stand and show Govt, the media, and whoever else is opposed to us using our lands for recreational purposes just how we feel about what they are doing and what they plan on doing. They have big plans for all recreation users we are just going to have to wait to find out what they are, i think its going to have something to do with giving the Govt money for using the backcountry maybe in the form of a recreation usage tax or even like a fishing licence we will have to purchase before using the backcountry, lets call it a backcountry users permit and charge $100.00 a head. Honestly i see this coming thats the way Govt works the sneaky bastards, the nice thing is it would shut everyone up for a while and i would gladly pay a few bucks for that, what the hell we have to pay for everything else we do thats all Govt wants, we will never see a outright ban. I HOPE !!! I am all for avy courses but i know many people who ride but don't ride in the mountians and would never try highmarking anyone, there is a fine line here. I think the manufacturers, dealers, individuals, and avy training experts should work together for the answer. If manufacturers included in the price of a new mountian sled a avy pack, a training video, and maybe a online safety course it would be a bonus to everyone and it would probably save lives. As for Mike Weigele his comments were made for his benefit i think that is obvious and it looks bad for everyone including himself. JMT

 

[snowww1]

Mountainhorse has made some excellent points.
I think we should send an invitation to Mike Wiegele asking for his participation in avalanche education. Let the media know how he responds. One thing to remember is that heli operations are walking a very fine line with environmentalists. Many heli operations have been shut down due to environmental concerns. He does not want to open that can of worms.

Idaho Trainer stated: " If Wiegele thinks he could put skiers into any of those areas and not trigger any slides he is dead wrong, with the conditions in Canada this year. I'm sure he had a bad year, but it wouldn't have been any better with less fatalities on sleds. The skiers were simply looking at avalanche conditions and making the right choices". I think you're contradicting yourself or need to make your statement clearer. Wiegele's guides have extensive training and they would try not to put thier clients in the situations many of the snowmobilers did. Yes they were "looking at the avalanche conditions and making the right choices". Shouldn't snowmobiler's do the same?? I'm sure the snowmobile fatalities affected his business significantly. It made the news all over the world. Try to explain to your significant other that you want to go heli skiing when they just heard on the news that multiple snowmobiler's were killed in the area from an avalanche. It affects business a lot. Same thing happens in Colorado with whitewater. Someone dies in high water, it hits the news and business drops significantly. Put yourself in Wiegele's shoes, he and his guides are doing everthing possible to be safe, but a few members of another user group are getting media attention that is affecting his business. It's a tough year to begin with and this media attention has made it worse. 75% of the avalanche fatalities in Canada this year were snowmobilers. This is terrible.
This media attention and the fatalites are not good for our sport. You can never eliminate all the accidents, but education makes a huge difference. In the US, snowmobilers were almost twice the number of fatalities of snowboarders and skiers combined. This is the worst ever. Many of the accidents were very preventable and an educated person can see that. I feel Wiegele is mad because he sees that we are sometimes making basic mistakes that are affecting his business and it keeps getting worse. What if skiers were number one for avalanche fatalities and they were going to shut down riding areas due to the danger? How would this make us feel? I know it's not the same situation, but someone's actions would be affecting us.
Good luck getting the snowmobile manufacturers to help out. They have bigger worries with the economy. I have contacted all the manufacturers numerous times with only one responding. Arctic Cat has been the only one to respond and take classes.
This has to be a grass roots effort. The classes are out there in Canada and the US. Take a class and get your friends to take a class. Buy the avalanche gear, practice with it and keep learning. Alter your riding according to the danger.
More and more riders are taking classes, getting properly equiped and being prepared. The change is happening. It will not happen as fast as most of us would like it to. Mike Duffy

 

[J-Fly]

I went heliskiing in the Gothics with CMH a couple years ago. Wiegele's was right next to us. I remember our guide said that Wiegele had been known for leading his groups into avalanches. I wonder how many people have been in avalanches in his care?

More people die in car wrecks, should we ban cars? I think snowmobilers are more likely to get in avalanches than heli-skiers, because snowmobilers are traveling more miles in the backcountry. Its a lot safer to fly to the top of a mountain, than ride a sled up. This is just common sense.


Hopefully Wiegele will lose customers that think his ideas of snowmobiling are ridiculous.

 

[J-Fly]

By the way, a lot of people that have had tons of avy training have DIED in avalanches. Watch a DOzen More Turns, the guy had a college degree in Avalanches, and he died in one. Ive read that the people who take avalanche classes, are the ones most likely to die in an avalanche. These things are unpredictable, the only way to avoid them is to not go into the backcountry. As long as there are snowmobiles, people will die every winter in avalanches.

Id like to punch Wiegele in the nuts.

 

[J-Fly]

According to Wiegele's logic, we should ban Heli Skiing too. 13 people have died while they were Helisking with his company. Its only 11 avalanche deaths in 20 years, but those people would still be alive if they hadnt gone to Wiegele's. Obviously the guy is just trying to get snowmobilers and backcountry skiers out of his areas. He even admits there is no way to avoid avy's.

I found this New York Times article from 2000 that discusses it a little.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/19/m...-powder-heaven.html?sec=travel&pagewanted=all


There was soon a lot of taking things seriously. Not long after we had finished eating lunch and unpacking our bags -- they had been delivered to our chalets while we ate -- we assembled in the lodge that housed the resort's administrative offices for a mandatory lecture on safety. The mood was sober. Even guests who had sat through the presentation many times seemed to listen carefully and for good reason: Over the last 20 years, the Wiegele company, which is one of the safest in the business, has had 13 fatalities, 11 of them in avalanches.

Even with about 2,000 guests a year now at the Wiegele resort, these statistics suggest a level of risk significantly higher than that of big North American ski resorts. The Wiegele guides deal with dozens of avalanches every year, and they pointedly acknowledge that there is no avoiding the hazards associated with back-country terrain, or with flying helicopters at high altitude and in unstable weather. For all the advances in technology, the guides believe that the primary key to safety is teaching the guests well: Take precautions, use equipment properly and, above all, do not push the limits in your skiing.

 

[snowww1]

J-Fly stated "that he read that the people who take avalanche classes are the ones most likely to die in avalanches". That quote was from years ago and it has been studied extensively. Without going into too much detail: Yes, many people who have taken classes have died, but it is not true that the people most likely to die are the ones who have taken classes. There are many other factors that come into play, which was one of the points of "A Dozen More Turns". It's the human factor that is getting educated and uneducated backcountry users in trouble. This is explained in detail in most avalanche classes.
We cannot eliminate all the danger. Following some very simple rules, being prepared with gear, trained and practiced in rescue, recognizing avalanche terrain and terrain traps, knowing the signs of instability, checking the avalanche report, and altering your riding according to the danger can and does prevent fatalities. Trained snowmobilers have pulled off some rather impressive rescues the last couple of years. Many accidents have been avoided by taking classes. Learning not to fall into the behavioral patterns that get people in trouble is something everyone should know.
I hear from students all the time who tell me that after the class they thought twice about climbing a hill and passed on it. They came back later in the day and it had slid. Without the class, they tell me they would have climbed it. Students have also saved the lives of others and themselves from the techniques they learn.
Many avalanche accidents are the result of making some basic mistakes and not being properly prepared. It's sad to see someone die when it could have easily been prevented. Avalanches are not 100% predictable, but I would want the odds in my favor by taking a class. Mike Duffy

 

[J-Fly]

^^^^^ I see your point. I want to take a class in the future. I have done all the things you said without taking a class.. Following some very simple rules, being prepared with gear, trained and practiced in rescue, recognizing avalanche terrain and terrain traps, knowing the signs of instability, checking the avalanche report, and altering your riding according to the danger These are all things i have learned from others over the years. These are things i didnt know the first year or two i was snowboarding in the backcountry. I have also read books, and I have read the Colorado Avalanche Report everday online for like 3 years. I think thats where I learn a lot is that website. A lot of the people that get in avalanches where I live ( Breck, CO) have taken classes and have all the gear. They chose to ride dangerous stuff anyway. Also once a whole avalanche class got buried by an avalanche in Aspen, and three cars got knocked off the highway by an avalanche in Winterpark. Classes would help a lot of people, but not everyone, and taking a class doesnt guarantee you saftey. I have eduacated myself, and have been fortunate to ride with a lot of experts. Im sure i could learn a thing or two in a class, but it wouldnt change the way and what i ride.