Heelclicker clutch weights on 800 Dragon?

[Trenchmaster]

Has any one used the 2 speed heelclicker weights on thier 800 Dragon yet? I found a set on e-bay, 65 gram total weight with an 11 gram shoulder these were listed for 800 Polaris sleds. I have a set on my 02 800 RMK and they work great but are the one piece weights. Any comments on these?
Thanks, Scott

 

[Bull]

the heelclickers are really a "drag" wt. for the hard holeshot. not really what you want in the pow. i used them in the past. bad idea overall IMHO. you are adding A LOT of rotating wt to your primary.....better to spin only as heavy as you need. frankly it is dern hard to beat a very well balanced/setup p-85 with stock wts.

 

[Trenchmaster]

Thanks for the reply Bull, the solid ones on my 02 really did help on the bottom end pull, also helped to reduce clutch slippage. I got a good deal on e-bay so I bought them, I'll see how they work on the Dragon.

 

[Bull]

good luck, as i said i think they are a bad idea. especially on a mountain sled. if you have the correct oem wts, you should not have any slippage. you are just spinning more mass....tougher on your crank. you MUST balance your primary after you install if you are planning on using them. i think they add to the chance of "grenade".....especially the new 2 piece ones. read the replies to your other post....

 

[thefullmonte]

I just spent a week trying to dial in the new Drag and Fly heelclickers. Will have to wait till I get home for the exact setup. Low rpm clutch slippage was eliminated, but the midrange throttle response was somewhat lacking. I think the EPI bellybuster weights are a better idea. I don't think I have ever had a clutch on and off so many times trying to dial it in. The engagement was also smoothed out, but still too much clutch heat. Peak rpm was 7950 on the money. The starting point just seemed so far off. Made the sled feel sluggish throughout the rpm range. I went back to the stock spring and went from there. The next obsticle was that the weights (bolts) supplied aren't in small enough increments to fine tune with the stock spring. These weights are definitally intended to load the motor with major spring pressure.
Overall, I think they are working better than the stock setup. As you can tell though, I feel they are still leaving something on the table. I will be trying some other setups. On a side note, I have never tried the 2 speed weights. There are a couple guys on here who could probably get you pointed in the right direction.

 

[towny]

Using the 2 speeds (with a Team secondary) you need to use a less aggressive helix and heaver secondary spring!

Put them on a p85 equipped 07 800r w/Team secondary. Should be similar to your Dragon?
Used the 40-20 2 speeds.
Found I had to use a heavy secondary spring 160-280 and a less aggressive helix!
Started with a 58-42 .45. Ripped but felt sluggish and back shift was poor.
The aggressive up shift of the 2 speeds overcomes the helix. (Shifts out to fast)

Now using a Polaris almond primary w/4gr’s in the heel
Dropped the helix to a 50-40F and it really improved the snappiness of the throttle response!
Really jumps when you pin it. More like the TRA does all tough not as much.

Pulls real hard from the bottom through the top end. Still feel like back shift is a bit lazy but think a 48-38.46 helix would work even better?

Overall very pleased with the results! No problems so far. (Knock on Wood!) Have 700 miles on them.
Did break there “Black” spring. Found they worked better with the spring broke after I removed some weight, then they did using it?? So I went to the Almond Polaris spring instead (A bit lighter)

I been thinking about a D8 for next year and would really be interested in your findings!

 

[Trenchmaster]

I did have the clutch on my 02 balanced after I put the solid Heelclickers on, buddy said it was very close and didn't remove to much material. The spring supplied with the kit was way stiffer than the stock spring. I think that this set up is probably harder on the crankshaft but the pull on the bottom end is addictive. All these comments are in regard to my 02 800 RMK as I have not recieved the weights for my Dragon yet. Thanks for the replies so far.

 

[LSSI]

I ride a 05 900 rmk 166 with quite a few mods. I have tried countless setups for my cluthes & am now running the drag & fly weights.
It took me some setup time but the end result is absolutely amazing. I can idle up to a wall & climb it & it pulls very hard.
I would recommend these in a heart beat to anyone with a very strong knowledge of clutching.
These weights are infinitly adjustable. If they dont feel right, they are not setup right. You can set these weights up for any riding style.
My sled pulls, backshifts, holeshot is armwrenching or I can walk faster then the sled creeps. (& no it doesnt trench).

Yes, the setup the designer recommends is completely off for mountain riding but that is easily adjusted.

I know that a 900 & 800 sleds are a little different but I guess what Im saying is its worth the money for the drag & flys.

 

[Trenchmaster]

LSSI are the drag and fly the new one piece weights? did you have to notch out the webs on your clutch for them to fit? I really like the Heelclickers on my 02 800 it sounds like it performs like your 900.

 

[gtfoxy]

LSSI are the drag and fly the new one piece weights? did you have to notch out the webs on your clutch for them to fit? I really like the Heelclickers on my 02 800 it sounds like it performs like your 900.

Trench, could you post your 02 800 clutch set-up. I imagine you are using the 55-7 weights like I am?

This 03 700 SKS is my second sled using these weights and I am just starting to tune them. I am running a button clutch until I geta PERC.

 

[Trenchmaster]

gtfoxy the clutch weights I'm using on my 02 are the 55/7 with the white spring supplied by Heelclicker. I added the maximum amount of weight that I could with the rivets and washers in the kit. I have an SLP single pipe, air horn, flo rites, v-force reeds, and a boost bottle. I also have the reverse kit with the Team clutch, the helix is a 58/42-.46 with the black/red spring that came with the kit. I had to get 2 washers removed from the primary to adjust for side clearance on the belt, I believe this was recommended in the Heelclicker instructions,(going off of memory here). My sled consistantly out pulled my buddies 03 vertical escape with basically the same engine mods but he used SLP MTX weights.

 

[LSSI]

Trenchmaster:
No the drag & fly are a direct bolt in. I noticed on mine I could add approx 6grams to most locations on the weight without rubbing the spider. The 2 speed weight system you have to grind away material & there is no way back if you dont like the weights. personally, the way the drag & flys react, I cant see it getting any better.

In the instructions of my weights they say to change the springs in pri & sec, 5.2 gr. in shoulder, 3.2 tip, 3.2 center, 4.2 overdrive. Thats ok for drag racing but mountain riding they dont backshift fast enough. (you loose that braaap braaap feeling). (I assume you mountain ride).

My weights are up to 90grams & I keep adding more & its just pulls harder every time. I would recommend keeping your secondary the same & primary the same to start with. Change one thing at a time & the polaris like the overdrive & tip loaded up. The shoulder leave empty (adding weight there kills the backshift-even with supplied springs). a little bit weight in the center hole. not too much as it will make it sluggish on throttle snap. So far Ive geared my sled up from stock (will hit 80mph on a 100foot very very steep incline). Ive left my secondary stock & have played with my primary spring to make it snappier.

I dont think the 800s are very diff then the 900s. & have talked to lots of knowledgeable people on the 800s. They should rock with proper combinations of clutching & mods. I think with the polaris you can get the best of both worlds (snap & heavy weights) as the xp' s definitly are harder to setup their clutches like ours. (either lots of bottom end & no top end or vice versa).

I have also ridden a 06 900 with slp mtx weights & the setup that everyone on snowest recommends. Its like comparing a vw bug to a race car---no kidding.

What mods have you done or are planning on doing? you definitly want to get the weight to match your power.

 

[Trenchmaster]

I plan on leaving my 08 800 Dragon stock, but I do think there is room for improvement with the clutching. I think the stock set up backshifts to hard, when I let off the throttle sometimes it tries to launch me over the bars. I was happy with it riding at higher elevations but down at around 2000 feet, not so good. I had the reflash done but have not had the chance to ride it yet.

 

[LSSI]

I only get engine braking when I snap the throttle on a downhill. If I dont snap the throttle it idles & I shoot down the mountain.

I havent really looked into the 800s but I think youve got a almond 140-330 primary spring. I would keep that or go to a 150 or 160 - 310 to 330. Really depends on where your peak horse power is & where your running when the sled is working on a hard uphill pull in deep snow. I would change the weights first, keep the primary spring. Then start fine tuning. Heelclicker dude will help you on the weight selection. Tell him your not planning on adding anything to the shoulder as you want fast backshifting. The shoulder will reduce peak rpm considerably so youll have to add weight to the "normal" part of the weight. (& no, his springs didnt work well enough for my back****ing, sorry).

I dont know what the reflash is all about & dont know what your secondary spring is. There might be room for improvement there.

Maybe when an 800 makes mine look stupid Ill buy one then fine tune its clutching. I made mine ride from a tank to a rocket.

Also depends where you want your engagement engine speed to be at. Clutching is pretty personal. No sled owners are the same. I like performance, control & getting blisters from hanging on for dear life!

If you have a long track (162 i think) snappines & proper clutch setup will definitly help on sidehilling as the sled will respond fast when asked to flop on its side & not pull you back down the hill with slow track speed. Since Ive played with my primary I can do donuts on the spot with my 166. pisses off all my skiddo buddies. haha.

 

[thefullmonte]

Trenchmaster:
No the drag & fly are a direct bolt in. I noticed on mine I could add approx 6grams to most locations on the weight without rubbing the spider. The 2 speed weight system you have to grind away material & there is no way back if you dont like the weights. personally, the way the drag & flys react, I cant see it getting any better.

In the instructions of my weights they say to change the springs in pri & sec, 5.2 gr. in shoulder, 3.2 tip, 3.2 center, 4.2 overdrive. Thats ok for drag racing but mountain riding they dont backshift fast enough. (you loose that braaap braaap feeling). (I assume you mountain ride).

My weights are up to 90grams & I keep adding more & its just pulls harder every time. I would recommend keeping your secondary the same & primary the same to start with. Change one thing at a time & the polaris like the overdrive & tip loaded up. The shoulder leave empty (adding weight there kills the backshift-even with supplied springs). a little bit weight in the center hole. not too much as it will make it sluggish on throttle snap. So far Ive geared my sled up from stock (will hit 80mph on a 100foot very very steep incline). Ive left my secondary stock & have played with my primary spring to make it snappier.

I dont think the 800s are very diff then the 900s. & have talked to lots of knowledgeable people on the 800s. They should rock with proper combinations of clutching & mods. I think with the polaris you can get the best of both worlds (snap & heavy weights) as the xp' s definitly are harder to setup their clutches like ours. (either lots of bottom end & no top end or vice versa).

I have also ridden a 06 900 with slp mtx weights & the setup that everyone on snowest recommends. Its like comparing a vw bug to a race car---no kidding.

What mods have you done or are planning on doing? you definitly want to get the weight to match your power.

So what is your actual setup now? With no weight in the shoulder, are you getting any low rpm slippage?
They recommend for the D8 the black spring (which is stiff enough for a shock) 5.2 in the shoulder, 3.2 in both the center and overdrive location, the tip is empty. This didn't even feel remotely close. Stock could rock all over this setup. Honestly, it didn't even feel as good as my 03 with the mtx weights. I messed around with the shoulder weight a bit, but then just started over.
I currently am running the stock spring with 3.2 in the center and the bolt 1 lock washer and 2 washers in the heel. That seemed as good as I could get with the stock spring. Good pull on the bottom. Really smoothed out the engagement. On/off throttle seems very lacking.
I would be willing to try some more setups if someone has a better idea. I don't mind doing some fine tuning, but this is a little much. I'm no clutching guru, but I'm not an idiot either. I just need a better starting point than their recommended. There is no doubt that these have huge potential, but I would rather ride than tune.

 

[LSSI]

Thefullmonte:
Ok, Im a little confused on your setup, no Im not clutch dumb but Ill use the heelclicker diagram to explain how I set mine up. If you put the weight down on the table & the tip faces right & the shoulder hole (arm that sticks out) is left. It reads: shoulder, center hole (closest to pin) overdrive & tip.

Yes, the black secondary spring is good enough for my truck suspension (haha). I almost left my sled on the mountain after installing the suggested setup.

If it lost throttle snap the center hole is too heavy. With the 140-330 you should have blisters. No I have no belt slippage. My sled likes the overdrive hole. They suggested nothing in the tip & I lost all top speed. So far I have nothing in the shoulder, 4.1 in the center, 6.6g in the overdrive & 4.9 in the tip.

You want the tip & centre hole (closest to the pin) to be pretty close but heavier on the tip. If you remove all weight in the center hole youll loose backshifting. remember, center hole is your 1st gear, overdrive hole is your middle gears & tip is your hwy gears. The shoulder (offset arm) cantilevers the whole arm for hole shot. I dont need anymore there but I adjust with different springs. (almond 140-330 or stiffer engagement-150 or 160).

I am still fine tuning my setup but I am also anal on how it runs. The heelclicker over the mtx (which ive used as well as the 10 & 11 series weights) can be fine tuned to your liking.

Also if you have more then 2 washers in the center, tip or overdrive it will hit your spider. I had to do some creative weight installations to get more then the max 5.5g. (used a bolt & nut).

Now I also have a modified 900, which has more torque so you have to add as much weight as you can without loosing throttle response. I am currently trying to bring my hillclimbing rpm down from 7750 to 7500. (thats where I produce my max hp.) I am going to experiment & add 1/2 a bolt to the shoulder (offset arm). I find if I add the whole 6mm allan (2.4g or more) it looses backshifting & I loose my sidehilling capabilities. I spend most of my day on 1 ski so I dont want to loose that.

The way I look at it is that yes it sucks you have to adjust these weights to your liking but at least you can & the performance is absolutely worth it.

Hope this helps. Always like to see the polaris sleds outdoo the recycled tin can xps.

 

[thefullmonte]

LSSI,
Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for. I'm glad we agree that the "recommended" setup is way off. I will stick witht the 140/330 spring and use your setup as a starting point. Sorry, I am used to using "heel" instead of shoulder terminoligy. My overdrive and tip holes are empty right now since my rpm was spot on. I figured I needed to add more weight somewhere though.
thanks again.

 

[Trenchmaster]

I'm glad I asked this question on here as I now have someplace to start when my weights arrive.

 

[gtfoxy]

gtfoxy the clutch weights I'm using on my 02 are the 55/7 with the white spring supplied by Heelclicker. I added the maximum amount of weight that I could with the rivets and washers in the kit. I have an SLP single pipe, air horn, flo rites, v-force reeds, and a boost bottle. I also have the reverse kit with the Team clutch, the helix is a 58/42-.46 with the black/red spring that came with the kit. I had to get 2 washers removed from the primary to adjust for side clearance on the belt, I believe this was recommended in the Heelclicker instructions,(going off of memory here). My sled consistantly out pulled my buddies 03 vertical escape with basically the same engine mods but he used SLP MTX weights.

Thanks for the info! It is such a relief to see some HC users. I started a new thread for myself with some questions and if LLSI, yourself or anyone else who could be of assistance, don't mind stopping in to that thread to give me some pointers I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[thefullmonte]

Talked with Randy from Heel Clicker on Monday. He was very helpful. Said I need to put the 160/280 spring in the team secondary for sure. So I will put that back in. I'm curious what helix everone is running with the Drag and Fly weights. Stock was 56/42/.36 I currently have a 62/42/.46 my other option is a 58/42/.36.
As far as weight setup. He said to get the backshift I want to just move the weight to the overdrive location. He really felt I needed to put his black spring back in though. Although it is higher pressure, I notice that the spring rate itself is 145. The same as the 140/330, so it should be quite tunable.

He pretty much confirmed everything LSSI was saying about the setup. Almost double the weight in the overdrive in relation to the center position. More upshift pressure and better backshift. Control peak RPM with tip weight.

Hopefully, we get some snow the next couple of days. I think I need to get out on the lake and do some tuning.