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Emergency First Aid

Fosgate

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I came to the frightening realization that, while I have been through the Army's Combat Lifesaver course, several CPR and trauma courses that I feel I can competently stabilize my riding friends until we can get them to help, I am totally screwed if I am the one injured after looking over my friends kits and their knowledge of use. Sure there are plenty of CPR classes out there to take. I have heard Dan Adams came to my local dealer to go through some Avy safety training. But I do not see much out there for training outside of some of the private tactical schools when it comes with dealing with trauma. I have to say the 4 days I spent going through the military combat life saver courses was one of the best detailed courses I ever took years ago. I've been through several since and have to say I have been through some really bad ones that I could have just as well stayed home and watched the power point.

Most of the kits online are the equivalent of my mothers bathroom kit of bandages and Neosporin. Nearly nothing of quality trauma kit. Sure many have tourniquets and a few will have compression bandages. I tell my friends to walk me through real emergency scenarios I have had happen to myself or friends in the past.

Scenario one: "OK, I just had my sled come down across my lower legs, I have a compound fracture of my lower left leg and bleeding profusely. Tell me step by step what your doing. I'm out of it due to the pain of the injury so I can't help." In virtually every scenario I would probably loose that leg at the least, mostly by not knowing how to apply or maintain a tourniquet.

Second scenario, I'm riding through the trees and get bucked off, sleds totaled and you find me unconscious. What do you do? Again not good.

Third Scenario, I'm cutting across a meadow and I barely see a single strand electric fence just as I'm nearly on top of it. I am unable to avoid it, but able to turn away with the wire cutting into the side of my neck and nearly severing my upper lip of my mouth. What do you do?

There are several more but you get the point. If you snowmobile long enough you see injuries and many very serious injuries. I look out at there are some very weak kits put together that people buy that have a few basic essentials for trauma but there is a lot of stuff in there that can wait until your back at the house and use the room for more life saving equipment.

While the military I would say trained me more to treatment of gun shots, they also trained for trauma. By all means my back ground does not qualify me to be a medic or to give medical advice but here is what I carry and why.

First going over this kit Overall I like this basic kit for trauma
1. I love the compression bandages but there is only one, Ideally I would want a minimum of two to three. First one is going to get used up quickly to apply pressure and stop the bleeding and 2nd or third to cover and secure to the wound for transport.
2. Chest seal- Collapsed lung from a hard impact or puncture is not all that uncommon and the chest seal is great to seal up the lungs from a sucking chest wound so the patient can breathe.
3. I like the abdominal bandage also for large lacerations, splint and sling.
4. Everything else I like in this kit and would find it usefull but I would go with a SOL Emergency Bivvy blanket. The one in this kit is pretty weak.
5. Splint is ok but again, know how to use it and train how to use it. If you don't know how to use it, you can be doing more harm than good.
6. The marker. I look at this as potential of freezing and it is needed to mark the time the splint is applied and times it is checked on and loosened. Alternativly for backup I added a simple us govt skillcraft pen used by the military for several reasons. First, they write in -40 to 160f temps, Write on wet surfaces, upside down and the barrel size and strength were created with the idea for emergency tracheotomy. https://wtop.com/life-style/2018/04/the-surprising-50-year-history-of-the-government-pen/


This is a decent add, I like the quick clot sponge. Quick clot in powder can be difficult to apply and for OR staff to clean up once you get them to a hospital. For gun shot wounds there used to be like a syringe type that you insert into the bullet hole and inject the powder into the wound. Alternatively for a puncture wound, similar to a gun shot wound instead of using the syringe type or packing the wound with dirt (frozen in the winter) one could simply pack the wound with the sponge. Shelf life on them is 3 years so you have to watch the dates and expired ones can still be used for training. Again learn how to use the stuff

Another decent add- I prefer the USGI Muslin bandage for a sling. It's large for all sizes of people and several different uses and its strong. Simple as that.

Field Dressing or compression dressing. I see a lot of Israeli dressings. I have yet to use one but I do know and like the USGI field dressing the US Military uses. You can pickup a 5 pack for $20. I like them because there is a lot of absorbent material and when applying pressure it feels like you have enough dressing there wadded up to depress and apply the pressure needed to stop the bleeding. Then it has plenty of length to wrap around parts of the body to secure the dressing to the wound.

Smelling salts always good to have a few of these when you find someone out or need them as coherent as possible to move. (also good to wake up from last nights overserving at the bar if nothing else)

Couple feet of Surgical tubing. I like in the kit as help to slow the bleeding at an appendage without using a tourniquet, secure a broken finger etc

That's the basic stuff I have in my kit.

Here is an example of a kit I would avoid for a trauma pack. There really is not much in I would want other than scissors, sling, flashlight and a knife but I would typically have that stuff in my tool kit or handlebar bag. This might be more ideal for camping in the back yard. Amazon product ASIN B08QRYYNH4 there are many more out there that are way overpriced in that to get some great stuff you have to buy a lot of overpriced garbage with it. I've seen some so called USMC Combat life saver packs for $1000 with maybe $100 worth of stuff in it. Other kits for $300 packed with bandages and alcohol pads.

Just a highlight of some very basic stuff that transitions a lot to ATV injuries and helping stabilize and evac trauma injuries to help.



Hopefully this spurs people to research more and maybe find some classes, get their friends involved and saves someone someday. Maybe look at any local private tactical shooter courses that also offer a life saver course. They usually are very detailed and hands on to help in bed the process so you don't easily forget.






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hansenmac

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had a friend break is tibia this year and definitely gets you thinking. I also have the most safety stuff in my sled but still not everything one should have. I need to learn more on how to use the stuff though.
 

Fosgate

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First injury I knew of was my father in the 70's when I was a toddler. Picture after he got his lip sewed back on, neck and shoulder stitched up. He was Lucky that electric fence line wasn't just a wee bit lower. Would have decapitated him. He and two guys he was riding with at the time were all military/Nat Guard/and volunteer firefighters with medical training. I remember them walking into the house all calm with my fathers lip hanging by a thread and blood all over him as they calmly grabbed the car keys to take my father to the ER. Mother and friends were calm not to freak us kids out either. "Tis but a flesh wound." Seen lots of serious injuries since including a second one where a rider with us hit a cable like this and also lucked out.

1651362398798.png
 

turbolover

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I had a situation where my niece pinned the throttle after I jumped off to catch the sled from rolling over.
She took off like a rocket, pinned a tree and flipped herself around it breaking her femur.

I used my shovel handle and probe to create a splint for her broken leg. Tied it all off with the mule tape I carry to pull a dead sled out. Almost immediately gave her a painkiller I had left over from my dentist visit. (I know I'm not a doctor but she was 13 and we had to carry her quite a ways down a hill to get her to SAR. I keep a couple in my pack for just such an event. If you can make a bit more comfortable till rescue or help arrives, why not) We used a toboggan that another guy had with him to carry her down the hill. She got her first helicopter ride that day.


You can also use other things to stop blood and be multi purpose. Tampons and feminine pads a made to absorb blood and can easily be soaked in fuel if you need a fire starter. Electrical tape or waterproof sports tape sticks to itself and can be use to make a bandage. We've even use it to seal up a hole in a coolant hose to get back to the truck.
Great ideas Fosgate, I'd like to hear other creative ideas you can use for firstaid or trauma treatment.
 

Fosgate

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I had a situation where my niece pinned the throttle after I jumped off to catch the sled from rolling over.
She took off like a rocket, pinned a tree and flipped herself around it breaking her femur.

I used my shovel handle and probe to create a splint for her broken leg. Tied it all off with the mule tape I carry to pull a dead sled out. Almost immediately gave her a painkiller I had left over from my dentist visit. (I know I'm not a doctor but she was 13 and we had to carry her quite a ways down a hill to get her to SAR. I keep a couple in my pack for just such an event. If you can make a bit more comfortable till rescue or help arrives, why not) We used a toboggan that another guy had with him to carry her down the hill. She got her first helicopter ride that day.


You can also use other things to stop blood and be multi purpose. Tampons and feminine pads a made to absorb blood and can easily be soaked in fuel if you need a fire starter. Electrical tape or waterproof sports tape sticks to itself and can be use to make a bandage. We've even use it to seal up a hole in a coolant hose to get back to the truck.
Great ideas Fosgate, I'd like to hear other creative ideas you can use for firstaid or trauma treatment.
That reminds me. If no rescue comes in to marshal a helicopter landing its good to have someone in the party familiar with the basic marshalling signals to help the pilot land. It helps a lot for a pilot to land if you can indicate wind direction on the ground with a large orange arrow but often its not practical for us to carry and you don't want to use clothing at risk that the prop wash blows them away. Whoever is doing the marshalling can simply have the wind to their back since the pilot will prefer to land and take off facing the wind.

Also do not approach a helicopter from the rear or sides rear (except for a crewed Chinook, man those would make a sweet sled transport). Always approach the helicopter from the front so the pilot can see you and they can angle the rotors to give you the safest clearance. The safest places from which to approach a helicopter are the front left and front right sides. It is acceptable to walk straight up toward a helicopter from the front, but the pilot will be able to see you better if you approach at an angle. During my service years I would get close to the perimeter, knife hand the direction I intended to travel and hold a thumbs up until I got a thumbs up or a head nod from the crew member or pilot that I was looking at. Duck down low and move quickly.

Always want to be cautious about static discharge of a helo also. Never touch one before it has touch the ground to discharge. We would typically use a broom handle with a cable looped around one end to touch the bird with and the other end of the cable was staked to the ground. Touching a bird without discharge will light you up pretty bad. I've seen guys get lit up before and it only takes you seeing someone get hit once to not forget ever again.

Basic Marshalling. It's changed a little bit over the years but the basic fundamentals are still the same.



How it looks in use.




Me back in the day.
 

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christopher

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As an Army Medic in the 82nd Airborne and as an EMT-P, the biggest issue I have is the INABILITY to carry a competent medical kit into the back country.
There is just no good way to bring a full back country trauma kit with me on the mountain.

What you need is a STOMP kit or a STOMP+
Basically what I carried in the service.

2022-05-04_22-23-48.jpg

And while that would pretty well take good care of anyone I was riding with till Evac could be arranged, it leaves "ME" swinging in the breeze if I am the casualty and not the medic.
 

Fosgate

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As an Army Medic in the 82nd Airborne and as an EMT-P, the biggest issue I have is the INABILITY to carry a competent medical kit into the back country.
There is just no good way to bring a full back country trauma kit with me on the mountain.

What you need is a STOMP kit or a STOMP+
Basically what I carried in the service.

View attachment 388287

And while that would pretty well take good care of anyone I was riding with till Evac could be arranged, it leaves "ME" swinging in the breeze if I am the casualty and not the medic.

Totally agree. The Stomp and Stomp+ are ideal if you have the knowledge and training to use all the contents. Hard to decide what is the most essential and cut the rest out. Could carry one but then no room for an avy bag pack and not enough room in an Avy bag to carry an organized Stomp kit. Even with the bag I carry, it's a bit of a squeeze to push to the bottom of my Klim Krew pack. I've got the bigger Klim Avy pack on the way not sure how it would fit. Would be cool if Klim or other backpack manufacturer would either integrate a quick open compartment on the back of the pack that you could stuff with kit or an elongated pouch similar to the idea of Klims tool pouch included with their bags, that would easily secure to the bag system with a quick release. Really all I would need is a pack that holds Safety equipment for AVY, Med Trauma, Communications and hydration as priority. I can keep the goggles, extra gloves, survival gear, tools, candy bars etc in other bags on the sled.
 

Wintertime

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I use a kit from https://surviveware.com/collections/first-aid. it fits in my tunnel bag. I added a tourniquet to it and some mold-able splint material. Its light weight, I also carry it hunting. They offer many kits. My work trains us in First Aid/CPR and I used some of the stuff we discussed in the class to chose my kit.
 

christopher

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Totally agree. The Stomp and Stomp+ are ideal if you have the knowledge and training to use all the contents. Hard to decide what is the most essential and cut the rest out. Could carry one but then no room for an avy bag pack and not enough room in an Avy bag to carry an organized Stomp kit. Even with the bag I carry, it's a bit of a squeeze to push to the bottom of my Klim Krew pack. I've got the bigger Klim Avy pack on the way not sure how it would fit. Would be cool if Klim or other backpack manufacturer would either integrate a quick open compartment on the back of the pack that you could stuff with kit or an elongated pouch similar to the idea of Klims tool pouch included with their bags, that would easily secure to the bag system with a quick release. Really all I would need is a pack that holds Safety equipment for AVY, Med Trauma, Communications and hydration as priority. I can keep the goggles, extra gloves, survival gear, tools, candy bars etc in other bags on the sled.
I really don't see any way to carry a STOMP kit other than as a TUNNEL BAG.
 
H

Highmarker

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What a great thread. This is a topic that nobody ever seems to talk about but is so important. I have been on both sides of a life flight call, been the patient and the caller. Have seen plenty of injuries way out in the mountains far from an ambulance both in winter and summer. It happens!

I was at an outdoor show a while back and came across a first aid kit named Duct-Aid. It looked to be pretty inclusive and had some pretty neat features in my opinion. I know it’s rather small and doesn’t include everything, but does provide most of the basic items, plus a length of tape as well as sling material that both have first aid, splinting, tourniquet, and a few other instructions printed on them which I thought was pretty cool.


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christopher

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While I am using the term STOMP, it occurs to me most riders won't know what the heck that stands for.

STOMP comes from acronym Seal Team Operational Medical Pack. It is now used to handle groups during disasters or emergencies consisting of items from basic first aid to trauma including items well beyond what you would normally carry in an IFAK bleed kit (Individual First Aid Kit).

Basic STOMP scenario is MAJOR TRAUMA in a remote location.
Gunshot Wound being the most classic for military operations.

While we likely will NEVER see a gunshot wound while sledding, what we DO see is MAJOR BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA (Rapid Deceleration into a Tree or Rock) and PENETRATING TRAUMA (Tree, Rock or Sled into the body)


When minutes count, evac can be an hour away..
Thats where the STOMP kit comes in.
 

Fosgate

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While I am using the term STOMP, it occurs to me most riders won't know what the heck that stands for.

STOMP comes from acronym Seal Team Operational Medical Pack. It is now used to handle groups during disasters or emergencies consisting of items from basic first aid to trauma including items well beyond what you would normally carry in an IFAK bleed kit (Individual First Aid Kit).

Basic STOMP scenario is MAJOR TRAUMA in a remote location.
Gunshot Wound being the most classic for military operations.

While we likely will NEVER see a gunshot wound while sledding, what we DO see is MAJOR BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA (Rapid Deceleration into a Tree or Rock) and PENETRATING TRAUMA (Tree, Rock or Sled into the body)


When minutes count, evac can be an hour away..
Thats where the STOMP kit comes in.
With your qualifications as a former combat medic, have you ever considered giving any classes along side some of the avalanche classes others have given? I know people get nervous about giving medical advise in this day and age with todays litigation happy environment wither you try and help someone incorrectly, but now days there is litigation potential if someone doesn't attempt to save a person. Realistically given the nature we see out in the sticks, experienced combat medics are well suited for the task. I would think more so than many civilian trained EMT's for the task at hand.
 

christopher

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With your qualifications as a former combat medic, have you ever considered giving any classes along side some of the avalanche classes others have given? I know people get nervous about giving medical advise in this day and age with todays litigation happy environment wither you try and help someone incorrectly, but now days there is litigation potential if someone doesn't attempt to save a person. Realistically given the nature we see out in the sticks, experienced combat medics are well suited for the task. I would think more so than many civilian trained EMT's for the task at hand.
Before I would even consider going down that road, I would need to go through a FULL RECERTIFICATION and an EMT-I/EMT-P
And I am not even sure that is available unless you are sponsored by a governmental organization now?

And, after a quick check, I don't see any courses even offered in Eastern Idaho.
Everything seems focused around the Boise area.
 

Fosgate

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Before I would even consider going down that road, I would need to go through a FULL RECERTIFICATION and an EMT-I/EMT-P
And I am not even sure that is available unless you are sponsored by a governmental organization now?

And, after a quick check, I don't see any courses even offered in Eastern Idaho.
Everything seems focused around the Boise area.


Personally I think the certifications etc for experienced combat medics is complete BS. I knew a guy in 101st humping the hills of AFG starting out as 13f and crossed over to medic for two more tours. Him and two other guys that were medics on choppers could barely qualify to stick someone with a needle in a Civilian ER when they were looking to get out. Gone are the days when you hear of medics coming home from WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc and opening up a small town practice etc. So much red tape to get the govts blessing in the private sector, but when they worked for the govt they were up to their shoulders in it.
 

Timbre

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Totally understand the liability thing, especially in this wacked out world we live in!!!

Would this even be a possibility . . .

What if you guys that know this stuff were able to find, and post links to some decent youtube videos that would at least point the rest of us in the right direction . . ? (maybe there aren't any good ones out there)

Then there is no responsibility placed on you personally like teaching a class might do.

Just thinking out loud :)
 

christopher

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Personally I think the certifications etc for experienced combat medics is complete BS. I knew a guy in 101st humping the hills of AFG starting out as 13f and crossed over to medic for two more tours. Him and two other guys that were medics on choppers could barely qualify to stick someone with a needle in a Civilian ER when they were looking to get out. Gone are the days when you hear of medics coming home from WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc and opening up a small town practice etc. So much red tape to get the govts blessing in the private sector, but when they worked for the govt they were up to their shoulders in it.
No Argument.
For me, when I enlisted into the Army, I was already an EMT.
So going through the Army Medic School to become a 91a/b was a breeze.
Then while on Active duty I picked up my EMT-I, and all the additional training for EMP-P.

But as a medic in the army, I could do minor surgery, and no EMP in civilian service is allowed to do that.
They are just two different worlds.

I had hoped to be a 18D, but I blew out my Medial Collateral Ligament on my right knee in Airborne school and couldn't run more than 5 miles without debilitating pain. took my 25 years to get past there where I could finally run 8+ miles and not be in agony.
 

christopher

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Totally understand the liability thing, especially in this wacked out world we live in!!!

Would this even be a possibility . . .

What if you guys that know this stuff were able to find, and post links to some decent youtube videos that would at least point the rest of us in the right direction . . ? (maybe there aren't any good ones out there)

Then there is no responsibility placed on you personally like teaching a class might do.

Just thinking out loud :)
THATS A THOUGHT...
 

boondocker97

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I'm kind of in the same boat where I feel I could patch up my buddies reasonably well, but not sure how they would do with me. Especially if I was unconscious. I may be buying some of them quality first aid kits for Christmas. Something like the Altitude Sickness kits.

Couple weeks ago I slammed the front wheel of my dirt bike into the opposite side of a creek bank. Wasn't that high speed of a hit but it was perfectly lined up to where everything came to a sudden stop, and all the force went straight up my arms. Shattered the radius on my left arm and compressed everything so my arm got 2" shorter. Ulna didn't break, but it dislocated and poked 1" out the side of my wrist. Could have totally been an injury hitting something on a snowmobile too. Luckily help was close to get me out to the ambulance in a side by side, but both of them were freaking out and didn't know what to do with me. It's a weird feeling when you are in pain with a bone sticking out and you're the calmest one in the group. Unfortunately not the first emergency situation I've been around where people haven't known what to do either. So some good hands-on training can be as important as having the gear.
 
V

volcano buster

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I don't want to derail this thread, but another part to this story is personnel extraction.
We have the LifeFlight system locally, and a competitor, but they will sell you a subscription with the idea that they can pluck you out of the back country at a moments notice but not what is actually needed for that to happen.

Does anyone have experience with aerial recovery?
 
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