CURE... For problem laying over or sidehilling 163XP.

[Original Tetonice]

Xp owners have been complaining about the difficulty of sidehilling and laying the 163 XP over compared to the 154 Xp....If you have a stock white/Blue/Gold center spring on your 163, has got a 275# spring rate which is very stiff imo. Changing to a 240# green/silver/yellow or a 223# silver/red/red will go along way to softening up the stiff transfer of the 275# spring.

This is a soft snow and climbing suspension recomendation the more transfer the better imo....What you'll give up by going softer is a slightly rougher ride on trails and rutted up trail conditions. Who Cares

Anyone else think the limiter strape should be longer ?

OT

 

[Priest]

I doo

 

[Priest]

I doo think

 

[Original Tetonice]

That stock 275# center spring also plays a factor in ski pressure as well. And contributes to why the 163XP in certain conditions feels like the front end is a little sluggish to move around at times.

OT.

 

[Reeb]

Tits, your wrong. Just countersteer!!!!!!!! No money spent!

 

[H20SKE]

I was thinking that if you are complaining about not being able to side hill your 163XP---You need a 154--LOL

You can take lessons on my Rt1000 162--If you can sidehill this--a XP163 should not be a issue.

H20SKE...

Good info O Tet

 

[diamonddave]

H2O, I was thinkin the same exact thing. Man-up and start bulkin-up!!

 

[Original Tetonice]

My RT1000 with 233# center carves a hill like a hot knife slicing through butter. The XP isn't bad, however a softer spring will make the 163 on par with the 154 which carves with ease.

OT

 

[NoSecondChances]

This is a soft snow and climbing suspension recomendation the more transfer the better imo....What you'll give up by going softer is a slightly rougher ride on trails and rutted up trail conditions. Who Cares

OT

Ski Doo actually designed the SC-5M that is on your sled to have less weight transfer so that it remains flatter on the snow and planes off instead of trenching through it. Your recommendation of the more transfer the better will counteract the design of the suspension and you will be giving up more than a rough trail ride as the sled will begin to dig more in powder with less transfer so you will be giving up some deep snow performance as well.

There's not a big difference between the 154 and 163 IMO, just need to work the throttle a little. This sled likes to be on the gas to move around, it won't lay over if your not on the fun flipper.

 

[snoblind04]

Anyone else think the limiter strape should be longer ?

OT[/QUOTE]

Not from what we've seen, they climb much better in the stock position

 

[Original Tetonice]

Ski Doo actually designed the SC-5M that is on your sled to have less weight transfer so that it remains flatter on the snow and planes off instead of trenching through it. Your recommendation of the more transfer the better will counteract the design of the suspension and you will be giving up more than a rough trail ride as the sled will begin to dig more in powder with less transfer so you will be giving up some deep snow performance as well.

There's not a big difference between the 154 and 163 IMO, just need to work the throttle a little. This sled likes to be on the gas to move around, it won't lay over if your not on the fun flipper.

This has nothing to do with throttle speed, this has to do with maximizing the XP 163 ability to transfer & transision weight. The suspension that's under the XP is no different than the any other Doo Summit I've owned since 2000 except perhaps for the single limiter strap thats now being used. Like all Doo's i've owned you have to dial in the suspension to get the most out of the sled for the type of riding you do. ....The more you modify the suspension with available skidoo springs the better the suspension responds. When your climbing hills having good rear suspension transfer (not to soft or stiff) makes alot differance when your looking for track speed. A suspension that is 2 stiff in deep snow, hillclimbing or sidehilling has a habit of not being able to change/transfer weight fast enough in varied deep snow conditions, causing the track to lose trackspeed because the stiff suspension is plowing through condition vs floating/planing transfer through conditions....Perhaps the deciding factor one has to make boils down to what you ride the most trails or powder.

All lot of guy's spend months on clutching and zero time on dialing in there suspension to perform at it's optimum.


If there no big differance between the 154XP and the 163XP, than why does the 154 come with a silver/red/red 223# center spring and the 163 with a white/Blue/Gold 275# center spring.....A 52# differance in spring rate is a big deal imo.


OT

 

[swe-doo]

It's just a matter of finding the balance in your ride together with using the throttle in right proportion. At the beginning it's easy to use the right thumb to much and with the hp todays engines deliver you can't go full thrott all the time. It took me many hundred miles to figure out how to sidehill and handle the rt 1000 -162 as I want . Give it some time and it will come.

It's fun looking at these shorter tracked sleds running full throttle up the hills and when they're done you with a minimum of throttle gets up the hills and when it gets real steap you put it to the bar and starts accelerating. End of discussion

I've seen many riders that believed they were king of the mountain on there new rides but it does'nt take long to sieve the apples from the pear if you know what I mean.
Good luck with your new sleds, I'm sure its an awesome ride when used to it.

 

[NoSecondChances]

This has nothing to do with throttle speed, this has to do with maximizing the XP 163 ability to transfer & transision weight.

What's throttle speed? Are you referring to track speed or throttle control?

Simply changing springs isn't going to dramatically improve the sidehilling ability without changing other parameters and riding style. Track speed (throttle control) is key when you are trying to sidehill, weight transistion front to rear plays less of a roll when 1/2 of the track is out of the snow or does not have any weight on it. Track inertia will make a sled handle completely different. Drive along at 15 mph and try and tip a sled over with a 15 mph ground speed. Now get the track spinning at 30 mph but keep your ground speed at 15 mph (track is spinning 15 mph faster than you're actually travelling - when you're climbing or sidehilling). The sled will practically fall on its side. I don't know if you do any jumping - you can level the sled (or stand it on end) in mid air simply with track intertia.

If you are discussing laying the sled over on flat to sloped terrain, we should bring up the sway bar and ski stance as well as front susp spring rates as these will have a greater effect on the ability to flop the sled on flatter terrain since the opposing suspension forces will be counteracting the movements the rider is making. Similarly on a sidehill, the front susp of the uphill ski will be trying to push the sled towards the downhill side. The ability of the sled to sidehill is a function of both the front and rear susp's in combination and how they respond together, not independant of one another.

The suspension that's under the XP is no different than the any other Doo Summit I've owned since 2000 except perhaps for the single limiter strap thats now being used.

It is different. Are you saying Ski Doo has not introduced a new suspension since the ZX chassis? Even the slightest change in geometry can have a profound effect on how a suspension handles. Jumping from different brands requires an adjustment period.

This is a completely different sled than traditional. It will take adjustment of the riding style to get used to it. Riders won't be able to use the same set up from their s-chassis/ZX/Arctic Cat, whatever, change a few springs rates and have it work. The rider will have to adapt a riding style to the sled.

When your climbing hills having good rear suspension transfer (not to soft or stiff) makes alot differance when your looking for track speed. A suspension that is 2 stiff in deep snow or hillclimbing has a habit of not being able to change/transfer weight fast enough in varied deep snow conditions, causing the track to lose trackspeed because the stiff suspension is plowing through condition vs floating/planing transfer through conditions....

If you're looking for a noticeable change in track speed you should be looking at gearing. You won't find any noticeable increase in track speed from changing the suspension weight transfer. Plowing vs. floating has everything to do with approach angle and ski pressure controlled by the limiter strap. You can have the best weight transfer in the world, if you have a steep approach angle, you will never plane on the snow, you will always trench.

I guess I'm a little confused as to what you're discussing as weight transfer. Are you referring to ski pressure as well or simply weight transfer from front of skid to rear?

 

[NoSecondChances]

If there no big differance between the 154XP and the 163XP, than why does the 154 come with a silver/red/red 223# center spring and the 163 with a white/Blue/Gold 275# center spring.....A 52# differance in spring rate is a big deal imo.

That would depend on where the spring was located in relation to the pressure force acting on it and what mechanical advantage is given to the pivot point whether it is closer or farther away from the spring (more or less pressure required to compress the spring an equal distance).

 

[Original Tetonice]

Your confused alright...1st you don't have to be going 30 mph to lay a sled over. Most riders can lay there sled over just past engagement and not even doing 10 mph....2nd Your transfer weight is completely different from ski pressure and or how hard you choose to sweeze your throttle.

If theres no big differance between the 154XP and the 163XP than why does the 154XP come with a center spring rate that is 52# softer than the stiiffer 163XP ?

A sleds ability to transfer weight is a huge factor when riding deep snow or hillclimbilng. A sled that has it rear suspenion to stiff or the limiter strap to tight will always have a tendancy to plow through deep snow. Sled that plow through snow will always have slower trackspeeds than sled that are setup to plan & float on tgop of the snow.

The XP rear "scissor suspension" is no differant than my 2006 RT or my 2004 Rev. They all have 2 rear torsion, 1 rear shock and 1 center shock coil over...except the XP uses 1 limiter strap vs 2


Pic.#1 is the 2008XP rear scissor suspension pic #2 is the 2006RT1000 scissor suspension....whats the differance 1 limiter strap ? LOL

 

[Chubbydog]

Rear shock

It looks to me like the rear shock on the XP is different than years past. It's small up top, and alot bigger on the bottom. I could be wrong on that, but why is it with most of the XP's this year, they look like there bottoming out when there just sitting there. Do we need a different spring to bring them back up? They seem to ride ok, but the looks are killing me. I want it to set up in the back like every other sled I've ever owned. I've adjusted my springs to 3, and tightened up the shock, but it still sit's very low, and doesn't take much force to push it all the way down.

 

[Original Tetonice]

That would depend on where the spring was located in relation to the pressure force acting on it and what mechanical advantage is given to the pivot point whether it is closer or farther away from the spring (more or less pressure required to compress the spring an equal distance).

Give this some thought base on your above post....Woudn't a 223# rated spring be easier to compress than a 275# rated spring ?

OT

 

[NoSecondChances]

Give this some thought base on your above post....Woudn't a 223# rated spring be easier to compress than a 275# rated spring ?

OT

wow. I'll try and keep this short. Yes it would be, unless you have no understanding about fulcrum points and mechnical advantages. Go put a spring under a teeter totter. Put a 275 lb rated spring a foot out from the pivot point on the teeter totter. Now put a 223 lb rated spring underneath the seat of the teeter totter at the point farthest away from the fulcrum point. Tell me which one is easier to compress. The mechanical advantage of the lever (the teeter totter in this case) will allow you to compress the 275lb rated spring much easier than the 223 based on their locations in relation to the pivot point of the teeter totter.

Soooooo.....I don't have two XP's in front of me to measure and compare at the moment so i don't know the exact mounting locations. Based on the 154 having less mechanical advantage to compress the spring based on track length, shouldn't the spring rate in fact be less? Yes it will be. I'm not arguing that point with you. I'll address your other post separately.

 

[Original Tetonice]

It looks to me like the rear shock on the XP is different than years past. It's small up top, and alot bigger on the bottom. I could be wrong on that, but why is it with most of the XP's this year, they look like there bottoming out when there just sitting there. Do we need a different spring to bring them back up? They seem to ride ok, but the looks are killing me. I want it to set up in the back like every other sled I've ever owned. I've adjusted my springs to 3, and tightened up the shock, but it still sit's very low, and doesn't take much force to push it all the way down.

Your not seeing things Chubby, my best guess is the RT is a standard shock body while the XP snowcheck gets the snowcheck shock body WooHoo. As for the torsions spring your dead on about them as well. In the soft snow the AOK. However,through rutted trail on the stiffest block setting my torsions have already been sacked a few times....The stock wire on the XP 163 Torsions and from what i can tell also the 154 both come with a square wire diameter of 9.86 MM.....They also make a stiffer one at 9.525 which coud be the answer as the stock torsions start to soften up.

OT

 

[NoSecondChances]

Your confused alright...1st you don't have to be going 30 mph to lay a sled over. Most riders can lay there sled over just past engagement and not even doing 10 mph....2nd Your transfer weight is completely different from ski pressure and or how hard you choose to sweeze your throttle.

If theres no big differance between the 154XP and the 163XP than why does the 154XP come with a center spring rate that is 52# softer than the stiiffer 163XP ?

A sleds ability to transfer weight is a huge factor when riding deep snow or hillclimbilng. A sled that has it rear suspenion to stiff or the limiter strap to tight will always have a tendancy to plow through deep snow. Sled that plow through snow will always have slower trackspeeds than sled that are setup to plan & float on tgop of the snow.

The XP rear "scissor suspension" is no differant than my 2006 RT or my 2004 Rev. They all have 2 rear torsion, 1 rear shock and 1 center shock coil over...except the XP uses 1 limiter strap vs 2


Pic.#1 is the 2008XP rear scissor suspension pic #2 is the 2006RT1000 scissor suspension....whats the differance 1 limiter strap ? LOL

no. Did you just look at the parts or did you actually measure the distances in relation to the mounting points of the front and rear arms, shock length, compression and rebound damping, torsion spring position and cam positions, front shock mounting location and angle?......I could go on all day.

Again, mounting the lower front shock cross bar 2" rearward will have a profound effect on amount of mechnical force required to compress the spring which will require a different spring rate. Can you squeeze as tight with a set of needle nose compared to a set of vise grips? mechanical advantage is far greater on the vise grips based on pivot point. Just becuz the same parts are there, does not mean they are in the same location. Again, I don't have 2 sleds in front of me to measure the dimensions from the ZX chassis to the Rev to the XP so I cannot say for certain.

As for your idea that a sled with a stiff rear suspension or tight limiter strap will plow through snow is precisely the opposite of what is true. If the limiter strap is loose, the front of the skid sags and the approach angle increases, causing trenching and not floatation. If your statement is true, why have mountain riders been doing drop and rolls and sucking up the limiter strap for years to improve the approach angle? Have we been doing it wrong all along?

Have a look at some of the real mountain sleds built, specifically the very last picture in the 1160 ZX hillclimber build up which shows a great side shot.
http://www.emountainmagic.com/content.asp?ContentType=Product
Compare that approach angle to your XP.......that sled could have the shocks welded solid on it for the hardest suspension around and it would still float on the snow better than any XP. Floatation is based on approach angle.

As for the idea that any rider can flop their sled over at 10 mph, then why are we having this conversation? If it is indeed as easy as you say, why the need to bother changing it then? Why go to all the effort and expense of changing spring rates for a what, 3-5% increase in rideability? Seems like people are trying to make this far more complicated than it is if that is the case. As stated before, riders will have to adapt to this sled, not set it up like the last 15 they owned.

your turn.