Coordinates for Surveyor, HooDoo, Crooked Fork sledding closures.

[blue fluff]

With the attempted closures of our sledding areas, I thought you MT, ID and WA guys and gals who like to sled in these areas might like these coordinates for comments to the Forest Service.

There was already a thread on the Clearwater closure, but I thought having these coordinates was important enough to post separately.


This was an email to our club president:
"I don't know if you are aware yet but the Clearwater National Forest came out with there preferred alternative plan regarding snowmobiling in the proposed Great Burn Wilderness area. What we call Surveyor/Hoodoo pass. As far as I can tell it looks to me like their preferred alternative which would be "C" shows all of the Surveyor/Hoodoo areas as closed permanently to snowmobiles. The comment period is for the next 30 days or so.

I thought you may have a way to send a mass e-mail letting people know that if they care about there riding area they should speak now or lose it all for sure because you know the greenies are going to get their people behind them. The information is on the Clearwater National Forest website.
You may already know this because you may have gotten the same e-mail from them stating the proposal was out.
Just a heads up and thanks for the effort you put into keeping snowmobiling alive and viable in our area.
Convenient for them that the proposal comes out in the middle of summer when snowmobiling closures aren't on very many peoples minds.
Jeff Kroll
=======

Then this is part of an email from our club "closure watchdog" Stan Spencer.

=======

"My personal opinion is to support Alternative "A" which keeps it as is. Alternative "B" also keeps snowmobiling but I don't fully understand it. What is imperative in my mind is to be sure we get everyone to comment so there is basis for a legal appeal. YOU DON'T COMMENT-YOU CAN'T SUPPORT AN APPEAL. It is also critical to include the coordinates (see attached) so no argument can be made that the FS "didn't understand what areas we were talking about".

With the support Senator Crappo is getting for a NATIONAL RECREATION AREA in the Clearwater NF it shows a strong support for an alternative to wilderness so regardless of a decision the FS may make after the comment period I believe there is going to be active interest for a serious legal appeal, if necessary.

The closing date for comments is the end of Aug.

A number of club members are not on email. Can you do a mailing to them?


Comments can be mailed to:

Kamiah Ranger Station
Attn: Lois Foster, Travel Planning IDT Leader
Rt. 2 Box 191
Kamiah, Id. 83536

Email: comments-northern-clearwater@fs.fed.us

http:/www.fs.fed.us/rl/clearwater/

COORDINATES:

HISTORIC SNOWMOBILE AREAS AFFECTED BY TRAVEL PLANNING PROPOSAL FOR THE CLEARWATER NATIONAL FOREST.

BLACKLEAD MT.: T39N R13E (29 28 27 32 33 34) T38N R13E (5 4 3 2 7 8 9 10 11 14 13 23 24 25 36) T38N R14E (30 31 32)

SURVEYOR: T40N R13E (19 20 21 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35) T39N R13E (1 2 3 4 10 11 12 14 15)

HOODOO: T42N R11E (24 18 19 29) T41N R11E (4 9 10 17 16 15 5 8 18)

CROOKED FORK: T38N R14E (25 36 19 30 20 29 21 28 33 10 15 22 27 34 26 33 14 11)

 

[phatty]

Sent.

Please feel free to copy my letter and use it as a base form to send in comments. We cannot lose anymore riding areas!!!



Lois,
I am writing in response to the proposed travel plan in the Great Burn Area. Specifically the following coordinates:

COORDINATES:
BLACKLEAD MT.: T39N R13E (29 28 27 32 33 34) T38N R13E (5 4 3 2 7 8 9 10 11 14 13 23 24 25 36) T38N R14E (30 31 32)
SURVEYOR: T40N R13E (19 20 21 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35) T39N R13E (1 2 3 4 10 11 12 14 15)
HOODOO: T42N R11E (24 18 19 29) T41N R11E (4 9 10 17 16 15 5 8 18) CROOKED FORK: T38N R14E (25 36 19 30 20 29 21 28 33 10 15 22 27 34 26 33 14 11)

I support Alternative A which keeps current access to all snowmobiling areas. It is a shame and a scam that public access to winter OHV travel is being closed across the western United states.

Being in the outdoors has been a huge part of my family for years. My favorite pass-time is enjoying the outdoors with friends and family while snowmobiling. Preserving our public access for outdoor recreation is important to me as it allows for future generations to experience the same sports and activities that I have been so privileged to take pleasure in. I enjoy riding snowmobiles, dirt bikes, mountain biking, wakeboarding, skiing, hunting, hiking, and fishing. Starting a few years ago, a small group of us from Utah make the trek to Idaho/Montana to ride this beautiful landscape with our good friends from the area.
The current office is proposing to close some trails and areas to snowmobilers by shutting off access to recreational snowmobilers. It is my belief and position that this is wrong and would have a devastating impact on not only my life, but many others around myself and the sport. As an avid outdoorsmen and devoted Stewart of the environment, many of my favorite hobbies revolve around being in the outdoors. Though I reside in Utah, I often “get away” to such destinations such as the Surveyor/Hoodoo area. You are not only choking off access to the forest to many who love enjoying the snowmobiling, but you are also destroying a valuable pastime that cannot ever be restored.
Please keep all areas open to snowmobiling by using Alternative A

 

[Snorider]

mail sent to lois

hopefully her maibox is overloading right now.

 

[turboyammy]

Mail sent, gotta keep these areas open!

 

[Snorider]

Maybe we can even get the kite guys to help us out too.

Just a thought, It's a good time to start getting united.

 

[Scott]

I'll be drafting a letter as well.

 

[xrated]

all ready been sent.

 

[Wade]

Phatty, where did the Alt A come from, a snowmobile group, or on your own???????? Just asking, so we all coordinate.

You guys need to throw some personal stuff in there, if you have it. Identify mountains that you love to ride, by official name. Tell them about your family rides. If you send in a letter, throw in some pictures of you and the grandkids up on those mountains.

Explain how, closing the Great Burn will effect you personally. The lack of other riding. The unique alpine riding you can find here and no where else.

You need to put in there, that shutting the entire forest down until November 15th, is unacceptable. November 4th was the original date, but it got changed without explaination.

You should complain that Alternative C and Alternative D are the same for Winter Travel Planning. The summer Travel plan didn't do this. The preferred alternative, Alt C, was a compromise between Alt B and Alt D. Snowmobilers got stuck with Alt C and Alt D both being draconian closures of the best riding in the Clearwater NF.

Tell them you don't support (RWA) Recommended Wilderness Areas being closed in a travel plan, only Congress has the power to close land. Great Burn is a RWA. The Forest Service is creating Defacto Wilderness, and acting as if it has the power of congress.. There is no scientific justification for closing The Great Burn Area. They are placing the idealistic desires of Environmentalist, above your right to use the forest, and share it with multiple users. Snowmobilers are good stewards, or how else could this land still be acceptable for RWA status.

Remember, you have to spell out exactly what area you want left open, by trail, mountain, the coordinates Phatty gave you, the parking lot and trail you use, drainage, or something. Snowmobilers got ignored on the first round of this, because they didn't get specific enough.

Also, use language like, "the Forest Service should.......". Don't say it would be nice, or I'd like. Direct them, they work for you.

Wade

 

[xrated]

good ideas wade...I'm sure Tim will chime in...Alt A is a legal requirement but not an option, even though it's the best one.

Having only rode this area for one day(it was kinda scary) I couldn't put much info in. Just mentioned wanting to take my kids, etc.

Another topic is the economic downfall of closing down riding.

Also the issues of equal access for those with handicap plates....got that from EW.

 

[Scott]

Also...When areas are closed off it concentrates riders into very specific areas and thus increases the impact on that area that is left open. This has a domino effect in that if leaves outside groups to eventually scrutinize the new impact on this concentrated area.

...Or however you want to word that....

 

[Wade]

I think Tim's on vacation.

That's why I asked Phatty where the Alt A came from. We need to present a unified front here. I'd like to get a copy of that letter, if there is one.

Another couple of comments. Why is the Winter Travel plan tied in with the Summer Travel plan? They should be separated. The reason I say this, is we are getting sucker punched, because sledders don't pay attention to such issues in the summer. I'd same something like this comment period would have collected much better responses, had the winter travel plan been made available for comment, during the winter.

You might point out, that during these trying economic times, it would be better to not make any changes at this time, to conserve money required for notifying the public, signage, and enforcement.

Make your letters personal, and unique. Two letters that look the same, don't get noticed.

The motorcycle riders really jumped in, and did a lot of work, wrote a lot of letter, and had meetings. They are getting a much better deal than we are.

I really get the feeling that snowmobilers are getting royally screwed with here.

 

[blue fluff]

Also...When areas are closed off it concentrates riders into very specific areas and thus increases the impact on that area that is left open. This has a domino effect in that if leaves outside groups to eventually scrutinize the new impact on this concentrated area.

...Or however you want to word that....

Good point Scott!

 

[phatty]

I think Tim's on vacation.

That's why I asked Phatty where the Alt A came from. We need to present a unified front here. I'd like to get a copy of that letter, if there is one.

Another couple of comments. Why is the Winter Travel plan tied in with the Summer Travel plan? They should be separated. The reason I say this, is we are getting sucker punched, because sledders don't pay attention to such issues in the summer. I'd same something like this comment period would have collected much better responses, had the winter travel plan been made available for comment, during the winter.

You might point out, that during these trying economic times, it would be better to not make any changes at this time, to conserve money required for notifying the public, signage, and enforcement.

Make your letters personal, and unique. Two letters that look the same, don't get noticed.

The motorcycle riders really jumped in, and did a lot of work, wrote a lot of letter, and had meetings. They are getting a much better deal than we are.

I really get the feeling that snowmobilers are getting royally screwed with here.

wasnt alt A the one in blue fluffs letter that stated to keep it open to sleds as it currently is? did i miss something?

i dont have time to sit and follow this stuff as close as i want to. busy here in Utah fighting to keep our own stuff open. If people are going to post on Snowest for others to write in then they need to be explicit on which plan to choose and have us write in for.

Personally it does it really matter if its a chain letter or hand crafted? Does it carry different weight? If the answer is yes then were screwed because were at the mercy of some forest circus official whos personal opinion leans one way or the other (knowing most want to shut us down). If it doesnt then its by sheer volume of entries determining what the majority wants.

none the less i will keep writing in and sharing how i feel about land closures

 

[blue fluff]

From the OP, this quote is from Stan Spencer our closure watchdog for our club:
"My personal opinion is to support Alternative "A" which keeps it as is. Alternative "B" also keeps snowmobiling but I don't fully understand it."

I [Fluff] wrote Sandra Mitchell and asked her to dumb it down for me so we knew how to write and her response was: "This plan is awful and unacceptable. We will prepare comments and then send them out so folks can use them as they see fit. Before that, we need to get folks who ride the areas together and discuss the options and what we want in the comments. Make sure we don’t miss any of the issues. I will let you know when that meeting is."

Haven't heard back yet. I'm sure ISSA, BRC, SAWS, et al, are working on it.

 

[CleElum Sledhead]

Haven't heard back yet. I'm sure ISSA, BRC, SAWS, et al, are working on it.

Wade is a good man, he is just asking questions to get the full picture.

Wade is on our team and working on a new SAWS Alert on this issue.

Here are two links to our previous alerts. If you did not comment during the Scoping period, don't whine about the DEIS. Scoping comments are very, very important!!!

http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/Action_Alerts/08/SAWS_ACTION_ALERT_-_CNF_TP_Scoping_no2.htm

http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/Action_Alerts/07/SAWS_ACTION_ALERT_-_CNF_TP_Scoping.htm

If you have good detailed info. Please get the info to Wade ASAP.

Thak you.

 

[Wade]

From the OP, this quote is from Stan Spencer our closure watchdog for our club:
"My personal opinion is to support Alternative "A" which keeps it as is. Alternative "B" also keeps snowmobiling but I don't fully understand it."

I [Fluff] wrote Sandra Mitchell and asked her to dumb it down for me so we knew how to write and her response was: "This plan is awful and unacceptable. We will prepare comments and then send them out so folks can use them as they see fit. Before that, we need to get folks who ride the areas together and discuss the options and what we want in the comments. Make sure we don’t miss any of the issues. I will let you know when that meeting is."

Haven't heard back yet. I'm sure ISSA, BRC, SAWS, et al, are working on it.

Thanks, I didn't know Stan had sent that out yet. Just wanted to know what opinion went with what group, that's all.

Sandra is back now, and we will see what she comes up with.

Thanks Phatty. Basically, they claim that all chain letters, counts as one. But, they do record how many they got. I think it was an attempt to keep East Coast libs from flooding them with click and send emails, all with the same content. It may actually be a good thing for locals, and motorized. Out of state libs aren't going to waste the time, to put something personal in there. Keep up the good work, every person does count. If no one responds, we will definitely loose.

Idaho Senators have a different plan for Great Burn. Waiting to hear what though.

Wade

 

[blue fluff]

I want to know what type of language they're looking for in a letter (besides specifics of where we ride and what option we want) because when you read the posted comments by SAWS and the "professionals" they sound kinda like legal language and I want it to "count" and know what I'm talking about, because at this point all I know is they keep trying to take our PUBLIC lands away from the public because of some made-up wildlife impact. The FS guy I talked to once for BHDL NF said their scientists were bipartisan so to speak. I don't buy it. He said our snowmobile tracks pack the snow down and allow predators to get prey they normally wouldn't. I call BS. Then there's the
"noise" factor, LOL! I'm sorry, but animals adjust and I don't believe they are that sensitive to winter noise. I guess I can understand during birthing time, but not a lot of sled activity then.

 

[WestMont]

good ideas wade...I'm sure Tim will chime in...Alt A is a legal requirement but not an option, even though it's the best one.

Posted by Tim in the Montana section.

here is a quick rundown of the alternatives. I really was only looking at the sledding side, but i did look at mtn bikes also. To me the only alternative we should be asking for is alternative b. That still gives us access to the great burn which is management area b2. legally the forest service can't do alt a because of the 2005 travel management rule.


Alternative A: “No Action.” The No Action alternative would take no action to change existing conditions. This alternative would not implement the 2005 Travel Management Rule, and would not meet the purpose and need for action.

Alternative B Bicycle Actions
Existing bicycle restrictions on trails within Management Area B2, Recommended Wilderness, would be retained.
Alternative B Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Management Area B2, Recommended Wilderness, would remain open to over-snow vehicle use. ALTERNATIVE C: MOTORIZED SINGLE-TRACK AND LOOP TRAIL
Alternative C Bicycle Actions
Bicycle and mechanized vehicle use in Management Area B2 would be restricted yearlong to protect wilderness character.
Alternative C Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong in Management Area B2.
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong on Fish Lake Trail 419.

Alternative D Bicycle Actions
Mechanized vehicle use in Management Area B2 would be restricted yearlong to protect wilderness character.
Alternative D Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong in Management Area B2 to protect wilderness character.
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong on Fish Lake Trail 419.

 

[blue fluff]

I'd like to understand why we can't choose A. I mean I know they won't choose A cuz they're sposed to go by the recommendations, which don't fit with A as an option, but what if we all want A, can they compromise with B because they want C or D? Instead of us all saying we want B so they compromise with C because they want D? No wonder Stan said he didn't understand B. It's all political mumbo jumbo.

Recommended Wilderness means, if I remember right, that we can't sled on it because, even though it's not technically Wilderness (Congress has to pass a bill for it to be wilderness), it's "in the study period." So I bet the RW area is basically lost to sledders if we choose to "retain" RW (except for management area B2 -wherever that is)

Loop trail sounds like no off trail, just stay on the trail that goes in a loop, right?

Hey Johnny!

 

[Wade]

Posted by Tim in the Montana section.

here is a quick rundown of the alternatives. I really was only looking at the sledding side, but i did look at mtn bikes also. To me the only alternative we should be asking for is alternative b. That still gives us access to the great burn which is management area b2. legally the forest service can't do alt a because of the 2005 travel management rule.

Alternative A: “No Action.” The No Action alternative would take no action to change existing conditions. This alternative would not implement the 2005 Travel Management Rule, and would not meet the purpose and need for action.

Alternative B Bicycle Actions
Existing bicycle restrictions on trails within Management Area B2, Recommended Wilderness, would be retained.
Alternative B Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Management Area B2, Recommended Wilderness, would remain open to over-snow vehicle use.

ALTERNATIVE C: MOTORIZED SINGLE-TRACK AND LOOP TRAIL
Alternative C Bicycle Actions
Bicycle and mechanized vehicle use in Management Area B2 would be restricted yearlong to protect wilderness character.
Alternative C Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong in Management Area B2.
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong on Fish Lake Trail 419.

Alternative D Bicycle Actions
Mechanized vehicle use in Management Area B2 would be restricted yearlong to protect wilderness character.
Alternative D Over-Snow Vehicle Actions
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong in Management Area B2 to protect wilderness character.
Over-snow motorized vehicle use would be restricted yearlong on Fish Lake Trail 419.

Here fixed it for you. Does that make more sense? Area B2, is "Great Burn", also known as roadless area "HooDoo". It is Recommended Wilderness Area (RWA), and Alternative A and B keep it open. There are three RWAs, Mallard Larkins, Great Burn (HooDoo), and Selway Bitterroot Addition.

There is no difference between Alternative A and Alternative B, as far as Area of sledding. Alternative B, adds a new component. No snowmobiling Until November 15th, Forest Wide. This is why I asked, how could RWA have to be closed, but Alt B leaves all three RWAs open????????

Alt C and D are the same as far as Winter Travel is concerned.

If you ask for Alt B, and ask that the November 15th closure rule be returned to what it is today, Alt A and Alt B are exactly the same for Winter Travel.