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Building a snow cave..When to call it quits

H
Nov 9, 2001
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Lincoln Nebraska
We went out last weekend and like anytime you get a dump of snow you get poor visibility. Since the storm was making it impossible to ride we thought we would time ourselves to really see how long it takes to get shelter. Like any of us mountain riders we all know there is a risk of spending the night and need to know how to survive it. You will find out in a hurry what you are missing and what would be nice to have.

We started on a back of a hill so you could dig in rather than down so much. As we started one of our riders pulled his shovel handle out only to find he did not have his shovel head. We ended up doing this all with one shovel. Total time spent was 2 1/2 hours. So keep this in mind if you are exhausting yourself all afternoon fighting stuck sleds etc. You will need a energy reserve and TIME to get this built. I would say NO later than 3 pm you had better start building your shelter. Nothing worse than being cold and wet at 4 and most likely turning a 2 plus hour job into a miserable 4 due to lack of mobility.

Must haves, shovel, saw (long sawzall blade) prefer two candles, space blankets for bedding and a probe.

We were confident the snow was deep enough but if you are concerned probe for depth before you dig your pit. Once determining snow depth start by digging your cold sink pit. This will double as your hallway and cold sink. This needs to be to a depth of 5'. This is why if you use a hill you can dig 3' then go level in which will get to the depth. Once your start to go horizontal start sawing out your blocks rather than dig. I ran my saw in and made each one a foot by foot. This will really start going fast at this point. Be sure and save your blocks as they will be reset over your entrance when done. (be sure and leave the lower part of access open) Once you get 7' horizontal into the hill you can cut the bed platforms on each side. We made ours roughly 24" off the floor but about any height can be used as long as they are elevated out of the cold sink. Be sure and dome the ceiling and use your probe to keep an opening in the roof open all night. Use your space blankets to keep a barrier between you and the snow bed.

Anyway it was good practice and kinda nice to know you can build them rather quickly if you need to. We had 4 people in this one and did not have the beds completed for all 4 just 2 that is why its crowded in the one pic. Notice in one pic from outside they are sitting on the beds on each side. Btw, with two candles it will reach temps of 45*.
It was good practice and I would recommend it to everyone to at least try it so you know you can do it if needed and how long it will take you. It could save your life someday.



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cave 1.jpg cave 2.jpg cave 3.jpg sled trip (6).jpg sled trip (7).jpg sled trip (10).jpg
 

newmy1

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What is the risk level of it caving in on you? Great info thx for sharing. Did you spend the night or just build it for practice?


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R
Nov 30, 2007
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4 people, one shovel? I have built and stayed in them before. If you can find one, a good drift seemed to work the best. Also, we were usually soaked by the time we had it built.
 

Coldfinger

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Thanks for the info. We've talked about doing some practice like that but never get around to it.

I heard you put a stick in from the top and use that as a guage when you are carving the roof from the inside. That way you don't make the roof too thin and risk collapse. Also heard if you have a good hollow section of shovel handle, use that as the roof vent when finished.
 
H
Nov 9, 2001
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Lincoln Nebraska
4 people, one shovel? I have built and stayed in them before. If you can find one, a good drift seemed to work the best. Also, we were usually soaked by the time we had it built.

Yep two were newbies...there second trip for one and 3rd for another. They both were talking about all the gear they need to buy after this. The other guy in my group was a veteran but had in-advertantly removed his shovel blade from his bag and was unaware.

Just practice and did not spend the night.
 

Wheel House Motorsports

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i have had days where my sled broke down and i dont want to make buddies drag me out early, so i have dug them and hung out. biggest thing i have seen is working into a good drift. diggin into wind slabs sucks BUT, super strong, also, working off a hill makes your tailings 100x easier to deal with. and you dont have to have a ton of snow to dig in and work your way up along the ground and then T off sideways making "rooms" well above your inlet locking in the heat. its wild how warm they will stay with just your body heat if built properly. no wind and 40*+ in sledding gear is damn warm!
 

Rmkguy

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Good information:
Nice to see some people are thinking ahead.

Now try building a fire the old fashion way. My son and I have been practicing.
Not as easy as Bear grills makes it look.

Nice work.
 

tjcatman

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Fire

Just a suggestion for those that read this. As one guy on here posted you are usually soaked by the time you finish. Every guy in my department that rides sleds must go through a one day course that I put on. I don't claim to be an expert but just have a little more knowledge on the subject then the guys that I work with. Any way, one thing I always teach them is with two guys, one builds the shelter one gets a fire going. If there are four people, all the better. Fire is as important as the shelter. A slight tempurature drop in the human body can be the begining of death. 40 degrees in a snow cave is nice if you arn't wet but is death if you are.

I also suggest they carry a large square of aluminum foil and some military grade firestarter that you can get at any military surplus store to start the fire. Begin with the smallest of limbs or dry moss on the aluminum foil and build it from there. Also they almost always start the fire before they have enough material to sustain it. Remember to get plenty of fuel ready before you start it or it wont last long. Be safe
 

cascadesnowjunky

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Screw all the firestarter junk and carry a roadflare. The flare will give you 20 minutes of super hot flame to get a fire going. If you cannot get a fire started with a flare it may be time to go hang out with the local boyscouts. I like the snow cave that is impressive, and good on you to show the newbies what it takes to survive a night in the cold.
 
D

Drewd

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Feb 2, 2012
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Nice cave...gave me flashback to the cave I built in my backyard as a kid after the great blizzard of 1978 in New England!

Fire starter:
I carry a sparker, cotton balls and steel wool soaked in lighter fluid, water proof matches, fire starter squares, several lighters, and spare neck gater which I intend to soak in gasoline and 2 stroke oil from the sled and light to get the fire going....all of the other stuff is backup :mad2:


Thanks for a great post and reminder about safety and survival.
 

FatDogX

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Great thread!!!

Any more pics of the interior or video???
 

The Fourth Wolf

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Excellent thread guys, and excellent description of snow cave 101.

IMHO...
Snow caves are OK expedient shelters but as shown, a ton of work. If you break down and decide you're over-nighting, it becomes immediately important to avoid sweating or getting wetter than you already might be. This is tough when it's snowing--work with coat on you get wet from sweat but take it off and you become soaked with melting snow. Asses your surroundings and try to select a shelter that will provide protection with the least effort.

If you're in, or can get to timber, use a tree well as the basis of your shelter. In most cases there's a ready made hole to bare ground and a wall of snow. All you have to do then is dig into the wall.

Cut a thick bed of pine boughs (knee deep, minimum) from trees other than the one you're holed up under.

Same thing for your firewood. Build a good fire and try and dry your clothes as much as possible. For ease of use, simplicity and cost, nothing beats cotton balls soaked in vaseline. You need a reliable spark, but even a dead lighter will do the trick.

I spent a lot of "quality time" with space blankets and I think they suck as blankets. They are good heat reflectors so I tie one off behind me so I sit between it and the fire. I carry on of those nylon reinforced solar/space sleeping bags and an old military poncho liner I had sewn into a sleeping bag. They're both vacuum packed.

My plan is to get a big load of wood, tend the fire, and not sleep very much.

If I'm ever caught out in serious cold, say -20 or more, I'll build a thermal A frame. I've slept in them before down to -40. Temp in shelter when I awoke? 29* F. Not warm, but survivable.
 

Scott

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Dig down, in and then up.
Build steps, make a small entrance hole and a room with a lifted ceiling to trap heat. Only build it large enough for the people who will be in there. No sense in having more air to heat. AND DONT VENT YOUR CEILING. LOL
 

jdw1

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Tampons and a little gas from your sled make a good fire starter, so the next time you head out to go riding just ask your wife, girlfriend, etc for a couple of tampons, just tell her, "but honey, really they are for starting a fire"!
 

Coldfinger

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We tried to use the tampon method to start a fire one time. We had a pile of kindling, tampon and fuel. Good to go, right? Wrong! When we tried to light the fire wifey got singed pretty badly and said it was the most screwed up idea I've ever had.

I said I don't know why it didn't work cause I read it on Snowest.

Maybe I didn't remember exactly how to do it so let me review what we did:
Pile of good kindling.
We applied gas from the tank to the kindling.
We lit the tampon string and used that to start the fire.

When the fire started, it went "poof" pretty good with all that gas and since wife had to be so near to the kindling (the string isn't that long and burns real quick) she didn't have time to pull away before the fireball singed her pretty good. Maybe if women's bibs had a zipper fly we could have run the string out the fly.

I probably need to check the fire resistance rating of the material before trying that method cause no need to screw up a good set of Klim bids, those things are pricey.
 

Trashy

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We tried to use the tampon method to start a fire one time. We had a pile of kindling, tampon and fuel. Good to go, right? Wrong! When we tried to light the fire wifey got singed pretty badly and said it was the most screwed up idea I've ever had.

I said I don't know why it didn't work cause I read it on Snowest.

Maybe I didn't remember exactly how to do it so let me review what we did:
Pile of good kindling.
We applied gas from the tank to the kindling.
We lit the tampon string and used that to start the fire.

When the fire started, it went "poof" pretty good with all that gas and since wife had to be so near to the kindling (the string isn't that long and burns real quick) she didn't have time to pull away before the fireball singed her pretty good. Maybe if women's bibs had a zipper fly we could have run the string out the fly.

I probably need to check the fire resistance rating of the material before trying that method cause no need to screw up a good set of Klim bids, those things are pricey.

I think I see a small flaw in your method. :D
 

Ox

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We have been carrying road flares for man years. Have started a fire with them once too, and it works great! I can't imagine going to all the work of the other flammables you guys mention.

Another app for a road flare while out sledding that I hadn't considered - was to be used just as a noisy night light.

A few yrs back we were way up north (Hearst,Ontario) and I stuck a piston earlier and my one chumm went out for a ride alone for a while, but was expected back by dark.

Turns out that he stuck one on his sled too and he got lucky and someone was riding by that had cell service (US phones wouldn't work on their system at that time) and I got a call at the motel to come fetch him. I understood completely where he was. Took the truck and trailer and buggered off out of town. Unloaded a sled and headed up the road.

About 10 klicks out I see light, and the reflectors on his sled. He has a flare burning... :face-icon-small-sho

"What - you thought that I was gunna not see you parked in the middle of the road?"

"No - the flare wasn't for you, it was for me."

He said that sitting out there all alone in the dark - you hear lots of shhhhtuff. Mostly there was a lot of snow sloughing off the trees, but ... he felt better if he could see, and knowing that I was coming - he wasn't worried aboot wasting a stick or two.

We were poised to have been on a weekend long trip in the bush - complete with camping gear and oodles of extra gas. This is why we burnt the motors down as we had 400# in tow in sleighs and the temps were real cold for early March, and we should have raised our needles I guess. ???

You just don't "thumb" the throttle with a trailer on like you doo when you are playing. Thus we got hosed by the lean spot in the carbs.




Yeah - I dug out a cave during the first day of the Blizzard of '78, only to find it completely filled back in the next day. I figgered for sure that just the entrance would be drifted closed, and once I got in a ways, it would all open up. NOPE! I never found an air pocket in there at all that day! I still wonder how that is even possible?



Pretty sure if I had to doo it again - I would be squirreling down in a tree well. Cut some boughs and put on the floor, you can build a fire if you are so inclined. If you are dressed well and dry - you prolly wouldn't need a fire for anything more than moral support, but if you feel energetic, sure - build one down in the well - on the outside edge so that you don't much melt water dripping on you.

I think I'll save the snowcave for somewhere that there aint no trees.


.
 

giddyup

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Nov 26, 2007
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i have used the road flares for several years, you can light wet wood with the road flare, works excellent works good for signals as well.
 
B

bendelow

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Nov 26, 2007
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Having spent a night out with my daughter, some comments:
We didn't build a snow cave, instead we got into a grove of trees and the fire kept us warm
0000 steel wool burns. We used it to start a fire, along with sterno.
I tried to start a tree, it didn't burn, but we moved the fire around the tree and as the coals cooled, I put my daughters feet/boots in the the now warm but not burning coals and kept her warm.
I had a whistle. I heard the search and rescue folks in the morning. I used it to bring them to us.
I forgot my saw. Instead I had to break off branches put them in the fire, dry out the branch, then get it to burn.DONT forget your saw.
 
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