Anti or Never-Seize on crank/clutch tapers????

[Rick E]

Good morning!
I am new to your forum, however I am not new to forums.

I have worked as a machinist/mechanic since the mid 60s.
Heavy equipment, HP Auto, motorcyles, Volvo Penta, etc.

After having read a few old threads on this topic, I decided to join Snowest.com.
I know that we are in the Skidoo forum..... I own and ride Skidoo........ but please bear with me because it applies to Skidoo as well!

Subject:
Tapered shafts/shivs and Anti-Sieze/Never-Sieze usage.



I pulled a Arctic Cat primary clutch yesterday and ended up using quite a bit of Mapp Gas heat in order to expand and allow the two to separate. I almost gave up and started making a plan to cut and relieve the clutch tapered area.
After one last attempt......... pop.... she came off! :face-icon-small-hap

Now.... this simple removal should not have been so difficult!

Crankshaft taper and female taper did show some signs of odd and uneven contact.
After lapping the crank to the replacement clutch taper, I cleaned up the lapping compound and did a dry fit.
All appears to be OK.
I then applied a very thin film of my favorite Never-Seize.
With very little force, the two (male and female tapers) gain friction very easily.


Now...... I have read both takes re; using and not using anti-seize/never-seize on the tapers.

I have been using the Automotive version of anti-seize/never-seize for over 45 years. I have never had an issue IF the two mating surfaces have been properly "lapped" with the correct lapping compound. This would be for both "keyed" and "Non-Keyed" tapered shafts!

Of the pros/cons that I've read here, the ones who have been successful with using a light coating of anti-seize, appear to be seasoned mechanics. In other words, I liked how these people explained it.

I would love to hear more Pros and Cons by those of you who have had experience with both good luck and bad results!
Perhaps not only why it Does NOT work, but also why it DOES work!

I am planning to reassemble using a light coating of anti-seize.
The clutch-to-crankshaft bolt will be torqued again after first warm-up.

Thank you in advance.

Rick

 

[polaris bob]

First question........

What tool and or technique did you use to pull the old clutch off? Personally I have never had to resort to using heat to pull a clutch off if you use the proper removal tool and a shot of grease in the clutch bolt hole first.

 

[TreeThrasher]

Under no circumstance will I ever use any type of lube on the mating surfaces of the clutch taper. The fit between the crank end taper and the clutch taper relies on friction to transfer horsepower. Any lube added to this connection point is counter productive.

The taper is a weak point in the drive system. On raised horsepower sleds I have had clutches want to turn on the crank. Lap fit the clutch to the crank, grease the clutch bolt and torque to spec. To remove, lube the clutch puller on the tip and the threads. If that fails use water and teflon tape on the clutch bolt.

 

[LoudHandle]

DO NOT USE ANYTHING ON A TAPER FIT, EVER!

First off; Never-Seize / Anti-Seize compounds are essentially a grease with small metal particles mixed in. The most common are Zinc, Copper, and Nickel particles. Usage of the three typically is based on temperature of the end use (with Nickel having the highest temp rating and is most commonly used on steam valves and other hot applications), although certain trades seem to have a bias towards a particular on as well (Electricians prefer Copper for it's increased conductivity).

Second; The whole premise of a taper fit is to align two precision machined parts together and keep them from moving relative to each other, enabling them to transfer the load from one to the other as if they were one piece. (So in short; transfer the load from one to the other without ANY slippage or movement between them).

Third; A Taper fit should be assembled clean and dry! Anything less increases the probability of movement, galling, and failure to perform their job as intended.

Why would you want to put a grease with metal particles into a Precision Machined Metal to metal fit? If you do, you destroy the precision alignment (and in this case risk destroying both the crank and the clutch! You might as well just take a handful of gravel and throw it in there, because in essence that is exactly what you are doing by putting Anti-Seize / Never-Seize in there!

In summary: DO NOT USE ANYTHING ON A TAPER FIT, EVER!

 

[eddy]

Copper Paste

While I think the people calling for no anti seize paste have a very valid point of view: On our Yamahas where we used a Comet clutch: The recommendation was a very thin coating of anti seize copper paste. So thin, it was like smear it on and wipe it off, and then assemble. On Ski Doos we have always assembled clean and dry.
Never had a problem with either method and never had a clutch spin. This is with proper torquing procedure.
Maybe both are correct and may depend on the exact materials in the mating surfaces. The engineers with professional degrees will now chime in please and educate all of us?

 

[Rick E]

First question........

1..... What tool and or technique did you use to pull the old clutch off?
2..... Personally I have never had to resort to using heat to pull a clutch off if you use the proper removal tool and a shot of grease in the clutch bolt hole first.

Bob, that is a fair question!

1.... a standard procedure as per protocol.

a... Lubricate puller threads.
b... lubricate the tip of the puller tool (the end that contacts the crankshaft bore).
c... create pressure that would normally release the two tapers!

2.... Heat is your friend..... even if you do not yet know if you have a stubborn one!
In my case Bob, I was exceeding the torque value for the puller threads. At that point I decided to crank the heat up a bit. Only after cranking the heat up did the unit come loose!

As for proper tool and lubrication..... yes, the proper tool was used.
Also see #1 b above.


Bob, thanks for your thoughts.


Please keep the thoughts coming. I'm hoping for real-life-experience regarding "lapping" the two mating surfaces, and the use of "Never-Seize" at the tapers.

Thanks again in advance!


.

 

[Rick E]

Gents, I must admit that I am heavily leaning towards the use of Anti or Never-Seize due to my successful similar scenario uses in the past.
However, I have started this thread in hopes of educating myself a bit further.
Also, let me be clear..... I'm not after an argument or heated debate. I'm looking for a good solid gentlemanly discussion regarding Real-Life experience (one way or the other) regarding this. In other words, your Pros/Cons and with real support for either!!!!

For example..... if someone says; "DO NOT use Never-Seize on tapered shafts!" or if someone says; "I use it on tapered shafts, and it works well!" ...... please explain your position and with industry support.




.

Under no circumstance will I ever use any type of lube on the mating surfaces of the clutch taper.

All due respect to you, have you adapted this policy due to past failures? IOW, have you yourself tried lapping, cleaning surfaces and using a very thin coat of Anti-Seize, torqued to specs and had a failure as a result?

The fit between the crank end taper and the clutch taper relies on friction to transfer horsepower.

Perhaps Torque more so than hp......... but no one is disagreeing re; the friction fit.

Any lube added to this connection point is counter productive.

It may be counter-productive if insufficient bolt torque was applied, and not as per OEM specs.
This would prevent the two tapers from fully mating and hinder their ability to transfer the designed Torque load.

 

[Rick E]

While I think the people calling for no anti seize paste have a very valid point of view: On our Yamahas where we used a Comet clutch: The recommendation was a very thin coating of anti seize copper paste. So thin, it was like smear it on and wipe it off, and then assemble. On Ski Doos we have always assembled clean and dry.
Never had a problem with either method and never had a clutch spin. This is with proper torquing procedure.
Maybe both are correct and may depend on the exact materials in the mating surfaces. The engineers with professional degrees will now chime in please and educate all of us?

Eddy, yes..... a very thin coating would be appropriate.


My thoughts are that when two perfectly smooth, clean and dry tapers are fit together (minus any lubrication)........, microscopic galling may occur as the force increases until bolt torque value is achieved.

Some may argue that the galling is what creates the "lock-up", and some may argue that this galling is what prevents a more complete and full "lock-up".
It is fairly UN-Arguable that microscopic galling is what causes difficultly during Clutch Removal!


I learned as a young mechanic in the late 60s (Heavy Equipment manufacturing) that tapered surfaces will be coated with Anti or Never Seize.
The lubrication provided by the Anit/Never-seize prevented galling and allowed for a more full and compressed friction fit.
The lubrication that it does provide did not cause slippage after completion.


Eddy, I too am hoping to also hear from the Engineering types if we have any on board.


.

 

[Teth-Air]

Eddy, yes..... a very thin coating would be appropriate.


My thoughts are that when two perfectly smooth, clean and dry tapers are fit together minus any lubrication, microscopic galling may occur as the force increases until bolt torque is achieved.

Some may argue that the galling is what creates the "lock-up", and some may argue that this galling is what prevents a more complete and full "lock-up".

I learned as a young mechanic in the late 60s (Heavy Equipment manufacturing) that tapered surfaces will be coated with Anti or Never Seize.
The lubrication provided by the Anit/Never-seize prevented galling and allowed for a more full and compressed friction fit. It did not provide lubrication for slippage after completion.


Eddy, I too am hoping to also hear from the Engineering types if we have any on board.

.

Your thought on this is sound but my goal has been a little different. I apply a very thin coating and then wipe it off just to leave enough of a film to prevent corrosion. I had a clutch snap while removing and the dealer had to replace the crank as they could not remove it. I did not use anything on the crank prior to this.

 

[Rick E]

Your thought on this is sound but my goal has been a little different. I apply a very thin coating and then wipe it off just to leave enough of a film to prevent corrosion. I had a clutch snap while removing and the dealer had to replace the crank as they could not remove it. I did not use anything on the crank prior to this.

I'm ok with taking a firm stand on this one:

Always, always, always lap the two surfaces.... whether going back together "dry" or with Never-Seize!
The lapping procedure ensures that any micro burs and/or rust/corrosion areas are smoothed out allowing the surfaces to become uniformly mated for a best fit.


.

 

[mountainhorse]

I'm looking for a good solid gentlemanly discussion regarding Real-Life experience (one way or the other) regarding this. In other words, your Pros/Cons and with real support for either!!!!

Best quote I've read in a while.













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[mountainhorse]

Here is my take.

Yes, many clutches become VERY difficult to remove... variances in installation...even/especially by the factory account for what I believe to be much of the issue.

Put it simply...Interference taper fit shaft/hubs rely on friction. Any kind of lubricant reduces friction. (oil, grease, anti-seize etc). Any lubricant that makes it easier to remove the clutch will also make it easier to spin/gall the clutch taper.

Galling can only happen if the clutch rotates relative to the crankshaft.

I've run into this discussion on/off for the last 30 + years of work. Taper shaft/hubs/propellers are used on Boats and ships.... doesn't matter if it's an 1" shaft on an old woodie or an 8" shaft on a 4,000 HP yacht... Dry taper, no lube is the way to do it.

In Ricks case above... the clutch was NOT seized on the shaft... it was stuck for sure, but not siezed... no galling was indicated.

Lapping is a good way to optimize contact area by minimizing machining tolerance errors... something that a factory cannot do in a production/profit environment. the clutch won't "get stuck on the shaft".

If you are lapping the clutch, you really need to check with Dyechem (AKA machinists blueing) to check where you are to start with... and to know when to stop... lapping as little as possible to get the desired result is best. If it is WAY off, you may need to ream the taper bore on the clutch to clean it up.
MOST clutches will not need this however (in my experience)


I have very seldom seen rust between the clutch and shaft mating surfaces once pulled.

As for heat used to remove a 'stuck' clutch... a propane or mapp gas torch is not a good choice... you want to heat the clutch Quickly to expand the clutch and not heat the shaft and cause it to expand at the same time... AnOxy-Acetylene rosebud torch is the most handy in these situations...pour a lot of heat, FAST. Of course, this must be done while the clutch is under tension from the puller.

When you install the clutch... make sure that both are at the same temperature so that they don't change relative to each other after installation.


AS a safety tip... you secure the clutch you are pulling off so that it does not fly off with lots of force causing damage to your sled or other things in your garage.. or injury. I've watched people, from RMSHAW race trailers to backyard mechanics to dealerships "launch a clutch".... sometimes damaging the clutch besides whatever it hits.

My favorite method of removing a clutch, BTW, is the hydraulic method covered in many threads on the forums here.

From the my early Elan through my most recent sleds...and sleds for all the people I have helped over the years... ALL of the factory manuals, from all of the mfgs tell us to assemble the drive clutch clean and dry with NO lubes... There is engineering behind that... not because they want to sell you a new clutch... or they are shy of assembly liquids... but because it is the best way to do it, based on solid engineering principals for nearly a century.


my 2¢




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[LoudHandle]

Here is my take.

Yes, many clutches become VERY difficult to remove... variances in installation...even/especially by the factory account for what I believe to be much of the issue.

Put it simply...Interference taper fit shaft/hubs rely on friction. Any kind of lubricant reduces friction. (oil, grease, anti-seize etc). Any lubricant that makes it easier to remove the clutch will also make it easier to spin/gall the clutch taper.

Galling can only happen if the clutch rotates relative to the crankshaft.

I've run into this discussion on/off for the last 30 + years of work. Taper shaft/hubs/propellers are used on Boats and ships.... doesn't matter if it's an 1" shaft on an old woodie or an 8" shaft on a 4,000 HP yacht... Dry taper, no lube is the way to do it.

In Ricks case above... the clutch was NOT seized on the shaft... it was stuck for sure, but not siezed... no galling was indicated.

Lapping is a good way to optimize contact area by minimizing machining tolerance errors... something that a factory cannot do in a production/profit environment. the clutch won't "get stuck on the shaft".

If you are lapping the clutch, you really need to check with Dyechem (AKA machinists blueing) to check where you are to start with... and to know when to stop... lapping as little as possible to get the desired result is best. If it is WAY off, you may need to ream the taper bore on the clutch to clean it up.
MOST clutches will not need this however (in my experience)


I have very seldom seen rust between the clutch and shaft mating surfaces once pulled.

As for heat used to remove a 'stuck' clutch... a propane or mapp gas torch is not a good choice... you want to heat the clutch Quickly to expand the clutch and not heat the shaft and cause it to expand at the same time... AnOxy-Acetylene rosebud torch is the most handy in these situations...pour a lot of heat, FAST. Of course, this must be done while the clutch is under tension from the puller.

When you install the clutch... make sure that both are at the same temperature so that they don't change relative to each other after installation.


AS a safety tip... you secure the clutch you are pulling off so that it does not fly off with lots of force causing damage to your sled or other things in your garage.. or injury. I've watched people, from RMSHAW race trailers to backyard mechanics to dealerships "launch a clutch".... sometimes damaging the clutch besides whatever it hits.

My favorite method of removing a clutch, BTW, is the hydraulic method covered in many threads on the forums here.

From the my early Elan through my most recent sleds...and sleds for all the people I have helped over the years... ALL of the factory manuals, from all of the mfgs tell us to assemble the drive clutch clean and dry with NO lubes... There is engineering behind that... not because they want to sell you a new clutch... or they are shy of assembly liquids... but because it is the best way to do it, based on solid engineering principals for nearly a century.


my 2¢

One quick observation, Dyechem is a blue machinist layout dye that dries so your scribe lines are more visible. I think you meant Prussian Blue which is a non-drying blue paste for checking contact between two metal surfaces, IE; gear mesh patterns and other desired contact verification's. DyeChem may work but I can not confirm that. I know Prussian Blue works well if used sparingly (very thin stripe on the bottom of the crank snout, let the clutch rest on the top of the snout and slide the clutch on til it seats). Remove clutch and see if more lapping is needed by scrutinizing the transferred Prussian Blue to the Clutch hub. Repeat as necessary with lapping and bluing.

 

[mountainhorse]

I do use the dyechem... but also use Prussian blue for other things... like pinion gears etc.

Quick lap with fine compound... wipe and I can see what is left.



.

 

[Rick E]

Update:

I installed the replacement clutch after having lapped the tapered shaft to the taper within the clutch unit.
I cleaned both surfaces very well afterwards.
I did use a thin layer of my Automotive Never-Seez (old product and yes, that is the brand name on the can).

The sled now has 50+ miles of use and with no issues as of yet. (fingers crossed)

If/when this clutch is removed again, I will report the successfulness of the removal.
If any signs of slipage, I will post photos.

Thank you all for your earlier comments!


Rick

 

[mtncat1]

Update:

I installed the replacement clutch after having lapped the tapered shaft to the taper within the clutch unit.
I cleaned both surfaces very well afterwards.
I did use a thin layer of my Automotive Never-Seez (old product and yes, that is the brand name on the can).

The sled now has 50+ miles of use and with no issues as of yet. (fingers crossed)

If/when this clutch is removed again, I will report the successfulness of the removal.
If any signs of slipage, I will post photos.

Thank you all for your earlier comments!


Rick

you came on here claiming to want advise ,but when people didn't confirm what you had already decided to you simply decided to try and baffle everybody with bull ****. you are wrong and trying to out think what the standard procedure is and has been for years is so flawed it defies common sense. clean and dry is how you install a clutch period . when removing a clutch hydraulic method is best but not necessary. putting heat on a crank shaft is a bad idea .and can lead to crank seal failures . if you want to break a clutch bolt lube the taper ,if you want to not have the correct torque on the clutch bolt lube the taper ,. your point that it worked once for 50 miles or a thousand miles is irrelevant as to weather or not this is the correct way to install a clutch . myself and many other that have chimed in on this have installed and removed hundreds of clutches with no problems using the correct procedure.

 

[IcutMetl]

You’re a machinist, and you want to use anti-seize compound on a precision taper?
C’mon now...

 

[caper11]

You’re a machinist, and you want to use anti-seize compound on a precision taper?
C’mon now...

I agree, although this is an extremely old thread.
Im a millwright with lots of experience with tapered hubs on rotating equipment shafts etc. In my whole career, I have never used any type of lubricant compound on any fit of that nature, especially a taper.

Snowmobile crank stub, definitely not, last thing the fit needs is lube when its designed to be a friction fit for power transmission, and the lube will cause the taper to slide up further on the crank stub before the proper torque is reached.


To each his own I spose, but that poor trade craft IMO.

 

[thrasher187]

I am no expert in the field but I thought I'd add a little intrigue to this discussion. My 28 ft eliminator cat powerboat has 1000 horsepower running through a mercruiser XR drive that uses a taper fit to engage the forward and reverse action. It does this extremely well, all the while being in a bath of amsoil severe gear synthetic gear lube. This stuff is as slippery as It gets. I believe the taper fit is a lot stronger than people think for this to be the industry standard in Marine usage. It gets engaged and disengaged every time you shift in and out of gear