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Land Use Issues that affect riding areas.
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  #1  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:06 AM
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Default Is This Vandalism?

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Old 04-25-2012, 11:23 AM
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Looks like a few idiots have to ruin it for the rest of us once again. They shouldn't of been up there
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:10 PM
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they should totally turn mission ridge into wilderness..
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:39 PM
newtrout newtrout is offline
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What are you trying to accomplish over here, Rob? How many times have you signed off and said you were done here?

Let me be as clear as I can about this: we are very interested in discussions with other user groups, skiers, snowshoers, etc. We are happy to work on compromises that don't include giving up very unique snowmobile terrain to Wilderness. In fact, I have proposed several compromises to the USFS that would be much more beneficial to skiers than additional Wilderness. BUT, we are not interested in YOU being at the table. You have proven yourself to be a very deliberate liar, and an excellent manipulator. I made the mistake of trusting you on more than one occassion and you did a wonderful job of using that against me.

Is this vandalism? Of course not. No more than the non-paying skiers who cut a traverse up a steep line in a lift-served ski area. Vandalism is just another word that you are using to sensationalize this as much as possible and get the most media/PR bang for your buck. What happened at Mission is no different than what happens when a few snowmobiles ride in Wilderness. It is a selfish act of immediate gratification by a couple people who don't understand or care about the impacts they are having on others.
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:06 PM
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What are you trying to accomplish over here, Rob? How many times have you signed off and said you were done here?

Let me be as clear as I can about this: we are very interested in discussions with other user groups, skiers, snowshoers, etc. We are happy to work on compromises that don't include giving up very unique snowmobile terrain to Wilderness. In fact, I have proposed several compromises to the USFS that would be much more beneficial to skiers than additional Wilderness. BUT, we are not interested in YOU being at the table. You have proven yourself to be a very deliberate liar, and an excellent manipulator. I made the mistake of trusting you on more than one occassion and you did a wonderful job of using that against me.

Is this vandalism? Of course not. No more than the non-paying skiers who cut a traverse up a steep line in a lift-served ski area. Vandalism is just another word that you are using to sensationalize this as much as possible and get the most media/PR bang for your buck. What happened at Mission is no different than what happens when a few snowmobiles ride in Wilderness. It is a selfish act of immediate gratification by a couple people who don't understand or care about the impacts they are having on others.
"Is this vandalism" is the title of an article which I had no involvement. Not sure that I have signed off as you say. I ride a snowmobile, for 30 years, I own and ride a 2010 Ski Doo. My strongest interest is skitouring, I use the snowmobile for access to start walking on skis. I registered for this site and follow the rules, per the site owners and will be here as long as the site owners allow. I am trying to have a conversation with snowmobile riders beyond the refusal of reality, bullying, no-compromise, disrespect of others, and denial that we see. As I have stated, I think that most snowmobile riders are normal, good folks. The day is coming, on state and USFS, that public lands will be managed so that much more will be off limits to snowmobiles where now it is a free-for-all. That free-for-all is problematic even for 'you' guys, whether you want to realize it or not. But some seem to think that what they hope is tough-sounding talk and intransigence will maintain the current situation, free-for-all for snowmobiles, which is not properly established. I understand that you and others here want to talk to or sit at the table with those that you think you may bully. Oh thanks for the names, I believe that you have returned spite after I have recognized and been impressed with your - previously- civil behavior.

Our public lands belong to all of us, not just to those who want to push the throttle of their 180 HP+ snowmobile and lean as they cover with ruts much of the forest quickly. Always fascinating to hear the apologists and the equivocal discussion, to hear that it cannot be enforced. Many aspects of our society are orderly not because a policeman is watching each of us- it is because we are a civilized society that places importance on the good of all.

To the apologists I ask is it not that unlawful snowmobile riding occurred that had a significant impact on other citizens? As well, along the entire Wenatchee Mountains unroaded crest accessible areas outside Wilderness include just 4 sections of land closed to snowmobiles, intended for muscle-powered use. And yes, we ski in the Wilderness when we have time to go that far. But some areas are avoided because of the snowmobile traffic on both sides of the Wilderness Boundary. So the other side is...snowmobile riding should be all over the Forest, even remove Wilderness because...? I say, no!

Industry numbers place active, regular snowshoe and backcountry ski recreationalists in WA state at nearly 100,000 regular users of a total of 500,000 who may use the offroad Forest for those activities. That would compare to less than 33,000 registered snowmobiles.

We have great mountains to provide recreation for all of us. There is room for great snowmobile riding areas as well as for muscle-powered winter recreation areas. It must start with respect of others and personal responsibility. As we work with the public land agencies for management of the winter forest for all citizens, it must be clear that there is more than one (motorized) use of the winter forest! The real but unstudied and unconsidered impacts on nature and wildlife are as well, important. Simply owning a $14k machine and having the need to push that throttle while traversing across the breadth of our public lands indeed does NOT have greater importance or trump the rights of others to safely and reasonably engage in muscle-powered recreation on public lands!

Last edited by WMC; 04-25-2012 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:22 PM
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Turns All Year Trip Reports
Backcountry Skiing and Snowboarding

http://www.turns-all-year.com/skiing...?topic=24569.0

WenatcheeOutdoors.org

http://www.justgetout.net/Wenatchee/23375

Wenatchee World-

http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2...ilers-playing/

don't you go buy another name on bcr. ? Tw200 ? one might think you have many faces depending on the audience
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:13 PM
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Is it vandalism? Absolutely not IMHO. Though the pictures and txt in all the articles depict activity that should absolutely not have happened, I think the approach is a biased effort to fuel the non-motorized community into negative action. I am just as big of advocate for proper land use by all users (especially when places are clearly marked or visible as areas that shouldn't be ridden in), but right of the get-go I felt like the sled community as a whole was being put on the chopping block.

It is sad that people can't use a single brain cell to self-discipline themselves, and unfortunately this is what we end up with. Why these links were posted for all of us to see on SW I think was a bit shady. I think it is odd that individuals claim to 'know the riders' responsible for doing this, yet there is no mention of any action to segregate these actions away from those of us who recreate responsibly. Plain and simple, riding in areas closed to motorized vehicles shouldn't be condoned. I found it funny that someone commented about 'tolerance vs. legal' as if it was seemingly overlooked by folks to ride in that area as long as runs were not affected by snowmobile tracks.

blah blah blah........... I don't think it was vandalism. I don't condone the disrespect shown to this area by truly 'rogue riders'. I don't think the articles portrayed a fair approach to helping fix this problem. That's the problem with so many people. No effort to help educate. Too quick to discriminate. rant over
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:06 PM
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Oh thanks for the names, I believe that you have returned spite after I have recognized and been impressed with your - previously- civil behavior.
Well, my intention was certainly not to call you 'names'. Simply to describe your actions. I should not have referred to you as a liar or manipulator. I should have said you have lied to me and manipulated me.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:47 PM
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In 98% of the areas that I ride, all popular snowmobile areas, I NEVER see a skier. Some of these areas people like WMC want to close to us. It is too far in for most of them to even get there and we have zero impact on the environment that is buried under 20 feet of snow right now. There is some conflict at the MT Baker area where we have a tiny sliver of the mountain to ride on and the skiers etc have 90%. Why do they even come into the tiny part that can be used by snowmobiles when they have such a huge area all to themselves? If they had any sense at all there would be zero conflict. There is no compromise for motorized use. Just giving up areas one at a time until we have no where to ride at all. Might take them 10 years or 40 years but you will never see the other side "compromise" and give us a new place to ride.
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Old 04-27-2012, 12:22 PM
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Many aspects of our society are orderly not because a policeman is watching each of us- it is because we are a civilized society that places importance on the good of all.
This statement cracks me up. I feel like we live in a society that places importance on the good of self... not all.... and these land grabs are a great example of that.

Obviously your all and my all are different. Because in my world, all would not cut you out of something you love to do just because it bothers me.

Selfish. And that is not me calling anyone names. That is a description that I feel describes way to many people these days.


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Old 04-27-2012, 04:32 PM
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Old 04-27-2012, 05:48 PM
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:17 PM
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Old 04-27-2012, 07:32 PM
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:11 PM
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Old 04-28-2012, 09:14 AM
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Old 04-28-2012, 11:57 AM
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Old 04-28-2012, 04:46 PM
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Old 04-29-2012, 08:51 AM
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:06 AM
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Old 04-29-2012, 10:26 AM
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Old 04-29-2012, 03:43 PM
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:36 PM
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:25 AM
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:49 AM
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