Coming to your favorite riding area soon...CLOSED.

LaharDar said:

I surely hope not, but plans are in the works, seemingly directed at sled use in particular.
The result in the Nooksack valley.
Both (only real) riding areas have either access roads closed or decommissioned.
Here is the person responsible.
Erin Uloth, at the Mt. Baker Ranger District, by phone at (360) 854-2601, or by email to euloth@fs.fed.us.

The whole enchilada if you can keep from puking. http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558...T3_3817679.pdf

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If canyon cr is decomissioned, will the groomer still be able to operate on it once there is adequate snow?

The solution has always been to disobey the rules. Force them to patrol the area, see if they have the money for that. If there isn't money for maintenance, there certainly isn't money for law enforcement. My contention is that if you ride it anyway, they will have to reconsider the closures and make a different plan.


They capitulate with the greenies and make these closures because it is the easy way out for them. Turning the tables by being an even bigger thorn in their side will definitely have them reconsidering the closures.


They count on you to follow the rules they make even if they are completely unconstitutional. Doing so is what gives them power, take the power back....

Keeping the road open

If we work as a group to keep the road open, and therefore have riding access, they have a more difficult time making it wilderness:eyebrows:

I get totally disgusted because every time I ATVs in the summer, I encounter new forest service closure markers blocking entrance to trails that had been ridden for years.

I don't sled as much as I like and am fairly new to this sport so I haven't seen the impact of sled land use issues yet.

I'm afraid that this is an avalanche that won't slow down regardless which party owns the White House. There are too many judges siding with enviroweenies.


I strongly believe there is strength in numbers. Please try to be more welcoming of newbies and try to get as many people you know involved in sledding. Until our community is more inclusive and welcoming of newcomers, we'll never gain the numbers we need to be a unified opposing force to land closures. We need more and fresh blood in this sport/hobby or whatever you call it. Increased numbers also helps sustain the sled industry which should ultimately benefit all sledders.

Some things I think are needed:
--> Don't be afraid to share secret sled spots or areas. We need more sledders and keeping these honey holes secret does not promote this. Think of the greater good.

--> Go out of your way to welcome a new and inexperienced rider. It is not easy to learn how to sled, especially off trail in the powder. Many experienced riders don't want to take the time to cultivate the growth of this hobby/sport because it is a sacrifice in time, energy, and being "slowed" down or limited in how aggressive you can ride if a newbie tags along.

--> Invite someone who has never ridden to ride your backup (wife') sled. Perhaps you will ignite a passion in someone who has never ridden before.

--> We need to unify around our common interests instead of finding differences among us. Powder sledders, please get off your high horses and be less condescending of trail riders. Quit making fun of parking lot posers. An expensive sled and expensive gear doesn't make you a "poser" to make fun of because the sledder's riding skill didn't meet your perceived expectations. Some newbies obviously have the financial means to buy nice new sled and matching gear but obviously don't have good riding skills. How about you be less judgemental and instead, invite and mentor them so they can remain in this activity and add to our numbers.

I'm done venting and I am very appreciative of two particular snowest members who have invited me repeatedly the last several seasons despite the fact that I suck as a rider and always will due to personal limitations-mental and physical- and my very limited ability to get time off work to ride as much a I wish and need in order to become a better rider.

Have a great day and I hope that land closures don't ruin your riding activities this season.

Drewd said:

I strongly believe there is strength in numbers. Please try to be more welcoming of newbies and try to get as many people you know involved in sledding. Until our community is more inclusive and welcoming of newcomers, we'll never gain the numbers we need to be a unified opposing force to land closures. We need more and fresh blood in this sport/hobby or whatever you call it. Increased numbers also helps sustain the sled industry which should ultimately benefit all sledders.

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That is a nice dream to have but there are not nearly enough sledders to outnumber or overpower the current green movement.


I think sledders in general are VERY welcoming. This is an EXPENSIVE sport, that is the larger hurdle. Most new/young people simple can not afford a sled and a truck to haul it with. It isn't the current sledders holding new ones back. I am not sure what gave you that idea...

Some things I think are needed:
--> Don't be afraid to share secret sled spots or areas. We need more sledders and keeping these honey holes secret does not promote this. Think of the greater good.

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Sorry but I do not give up all of my hard fought finds to everybody that rides up the trail. It helps you but increases the chances that my riding gets compromised. Get out and find your own special spots, share them when you feel like it.

--> Go out of your way to welcome a new and inexperienced rider. It is not easy to learn how to sled, especially off trail in the powder. Many experienced riders don't want to take the time to cultivate the growth of this hobby/sport because it is a sacrifice in time, energy, and being "slowed" down or limited in how aggressive you can ride if a newbie tags along.

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I have never experienced this as a problem. We take new people out all of the time. We have several extra mtn sleds and do not mind taking the time with newer riders.

--> Invite someone who has never ridden to ride your backup (wife') sled. Perhaps you will ignite a passion in someone who has never ridden before.

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This happens several times a season in my group. I am still trying to figure out why you think sledders are so non-inclusive? You must have had a bad experience because none of what you listed really seems to be a problem from my perspective

--> We need to unify around our common interests instead of finding differences among us. Powder sledders, please get off your high horses and be less condescending of trail riders. Quit making fun of parking lot posers. An expensive sled and expensive gear doesn't make you a "poser" to make fun of because the sledder's riding skill didn't meet your perceived expectations. Some newbies obviously have the financial means to buy nice new sled and matching gear but obviously don't have good riding skills. How about you be less judgemental and instead, invite and mentor them so they can remain in this activity and add to our numbers.

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People are going to be people. Sounds like you want sledding to go Politically Correct. I suspect you will find massive resistance to that idea among sledders.


You seem to be suggesting recruiting to increase our numbers. Back to my original statement, there will NEVER be enough of "us" to shut "them" down, never... Filling the woods with newbies would likely do more harm than good.

I'm done venting and I am very appreciative of two particular snowest members who have invited me repeatedly the last several seasons despite the fact that I suck as a rider and always will due to personal limitations-mental and physical- and my very limited ability to get time off work to ride as much a I wish and need in order to become a better rider.

Have a great day and I hope that land closures don't ruin your riding activities this season.

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Land closures are a fact of life. You can choose a couple of routes. You can try to play the game they created and see if you can win, you can't. You can conscientiously object to the closures and play "catch me if you can". This can have expensive consequences if done incorrectly... LOL It is the only protest that will get their attention though. Following the rules and abdicating your rights is EXACTLY what they want you to do.


I fought "them" hard for a decade. I have a different perspective now. I understand that you as a newbie have a different one. My experience tells me that you are on a hopeful path but one that leads to disappointment in your fellow man in the end.


Good Luck

Minority

The vocal minority gets listened to on these matters. Do not give up! When we do not object the Government says: "We did not hear from anyone, so we thought it did not matter."
Well, it matters! Send those emails today!
Ronald Reagan said "Trust your fellow man - But verify!"

Response Written to Forest Service 9 14 2016
Jamie Kingsbury, Forest Supervisor
Objection Reviewing Officer
Mt. Baker – Snoqualmie National Forest
Attn. 1570 Appeals and Objections
2930 Wetmore Ave
Everett, WA 98201
objections-pnw-mtbaker-snoqualmie@fs.fed.us

Responsible Official, Erin Uloth
Mt. Baker District Ranger
Mt. Baker –Snoqualmie National Forest
810 State Route 20
Sedro Woolley, WA 98284.


Re: Objection to Upper North Fork Nooksack River Access Travel Management (ATM) Project.

Pursuant to 36 C.F.R Part 218.5 we file this objection to the draft decision for the Upper North Fork Nooksack Access and Travel Management Project (herein referred to as “Nooksack ATM”). The Nooksack ATM project is in the Mt. Baker Ranger District of the Mt. Baker – Snoqualmie National Forest near Glacier WA. We are in particular looking to keep open FS Road 31, 3160 and 3170 commonly referred to as Canyon Creek with references to “Bear Paw” and “Excelsior”

Maintaining road access provides an infrastructure to snowmobile in the National Forest that can be enjoyed and utilized for recreation and thereby contributes to local economies. As snowmobilers this area is of special interest to us!

Our objection is based on the Draft Decision Notice: Nooksack ATM’s failure to meet its goal. We maintain that the rationales for scheduled closures such as the justification that the ATM are flawed arguments. We question the justification that closing certain roads to the general public is necessary.
We believe in the scoping of ATM process there was confusion on impact of the ATM on roads 3160 and 3170. Without knowledge that a shift in forest access was being considered, we think snowmobilers had little chance to make initial comment and object.
1. Local volunteer organizations and Snowmobile clubs are willing to help with maintenance on these roads.

2. The effect on the rural community economy of losing major snowmobiling areas due to a bar on the ability to groom routes and hurt access has not been effectively evaluated and dealt with in this process.

3. This clearly contradicts the ability for snowmobilers to access one of the few Alpine areas outside of the Wilderness boundaries in the Mt Baker Snoqualmie Forest Plan,

We assert that snowmobiling on accustomed and traditional grounds is further secured by keeping 3160 and 3170 open for access and grooming.

4. Formal agreements with partners specifically the Whatcom Snowmobile Association in proposing to close FSR 3160 and 3170 is dismaying. To make a change without consulting a long-time formal partner demonstrates a lack of consideration and respect. Failure to refer to existing Forest Service documents demonstrates a lack of due diligence. It’s also dismaying that Forest Service does not recognize the contributions to effective road upkeep that the Club has played in obtaining past road maintenance grants for brushing, ditch work on FSRs 31 and 3160 and for culvert replacement on Road 31 at MP 8.50 and 8.735. The closure of Road 3170 does in fact remove access to Bear Paw Lake Trail No. 4430 which is in conflict with the statement in draft decision that asserts there will be no loss of access to official trails.

We believe that agreements made with Whatcom Snowmobile Association were recognized in environment assessment documents that were incorporated into the Forest Plan. Thus we think officers of the Whatcom Snowmobile Association need to be involved in any future written agreements. Relying on just one e-mailed inquiry and failing to follow up to establish affirmative contacts for discussion demonstrates a disregard for courteous, cooperative governance.
We snowmobilers endured a three year closure of this area from 2012 to 2015. We hoped this experience would lead to a more proactive approach to keep this open, instead of emergency reactive type mode of behavior. With outdoors recreation being a multi-billion dollar industry, upon which many rural communities depend, such decisions are critical for them.
We look forward to the Forest Service keeping FS31, 3160 and 3070 roads open for public use.
Sincerely,

eddy said:

The vocal minority gets listened to on these matters. Do not give up! When we do not object the Government says: "We did not hear from anyone, so we thought it did not matter."
Well, it matters! Send those emails today!
Ronald Reagan said "Trust your fellow man - But verify!"

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Keep in mind that I HAVE actually tried what you suggest. I sent nearly 10 years fighting for my land use rights. I organized a club where there was none. I wrote letters, lots and lots of letters. I took and submitted pictures, I attended meetings. I worked HARD on that project for a LONG time.


The net result was no loss in my immediate area, the one I concentrated on, but a 40,000 acre loss in the overall forest plan.


You can not win, you are sadly outnumbered and underfunded. The other side does not follow the rules like you are trying to do, besides they invented the game. They use OUR money to fight us.... That is how difficult your battle is.


If I had not actually lived this experience in detail, I would not be posting such negative things. I watched our club disband because nobody cared about anything but beer. We lost land, we will likely lose more. I watched SAWS disband for similar reasons, no support, no money, no progress. I then read through a list of donations one of our rich liberal clients had laying about. The first two pages contained over $200,000 of donations to a dozen organizations, there were at least 8-9 pages. Large donations to Sierra Club and Winter Wildlands and Old Broads for Wilderness(no sh1t). We can not compete with the money the other side can generate, even if every sledder in the country gave all they could.

Even in light of the recent NFL BS, I think peaceful protests are going to be the ONLY way we retain ANY rights to recreate on the public lands as they were originally designated. If you think you can beat them with well worded letters and following the protocol, my experience suggests, you are sadly mistaken.


Best of Luck

Polaris is a multi billion dollar company..
Arctic Cat is Half a Billion dollar company..
BRP multi Billion dollar company..

I think its time that these companies stand up and invest some time and money in the fight to keep our riding areas... because if our areas get closed down, we stop buying sleds...and then the manufactures will really feel it.

The other side

Trust me: I am aware of the pieces of sh1t out there. I have been doing this since 1968. Because of this I also realize what little action each of us does makes a difference. I also know that most, but certainly not all, forest service people actually support our position. "Job Security" for them. They just can not say it out loud.

eddy said:

Trust me: I am aware of the pieces of sh1t out there. I have been doing this since 1968. Because of this I also realize what little action each of us does makes a difference. I also know that most, but certainly not all, forest service people actually support our position. "Job Security" for them. They just can not say it out loud.

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Unfortunately the fact is that the only "difference" being made is more land being lost for recreation. The numbers do not lie. Feel good interpretations of the facts are not productive AT ALL.

Do Something or Do Nothing?

There is little difference in people, however that difference is profound. That small difference is what propels them accomplish great things. That difference is attitude, and weather it is positive or negative.

I am not here to blow smoke up your dress, however as it turns out, we as a group of snowmobilers can do something, and very possibly win. Or, do nothing, and for sure loose. I have already seen what happened to dirt bike riding areas.

Do you win every time ? No, however if you never show up and never give some effort, you loose every time.

Snowmobile access is an issue at its tipping point. Lets try to tip it our way. We are close enough, and resourceful enough, we can and will win some!

The riding area you save may be your own! Bullies get their way until they are confronted with force. Then its surprising how little "toughness" they really have when confronted. With the force of good will and hard work, combined with some fight: Snowmobilers can win.!

eddy said:

There is little difference in people, however that difference is profound. That small difference is what propels them accomplish great things. That difference is attitude, and weather it is positive or negative.

I am not here to blow smoke up your dress, however as it turns out, we as a group of snowmobilers can do something, and very possibly win. Or, do nothing, and for sure loose. I have already seen what happened to dirt bike riding areas.

Do you win every time ? No, however if you never show up and never give some effort, you loose every time.

Snowmobile access is an issue at its tipping point. Lets try to tip it our way. We are close enough, and resourceful enough, we can and will win some!

The riding area you save may be your own! Bullies get their way until they are confronted with force. Then its surprising how little "toughness" they really have when confronted. With the force of good will and hard work, combined with some fight: Snowmobilers can win.!

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Great speech but that is just smoke up my dress I am afraid...


You DO hit on an important point though. We DO need to push back against the bullies, you are just doing it wrong. That is why we continually lose land. Show me one single case where snowmobiles took land back that was previously stolen.


What you are currently doing is pushing back according to the rules THEY have made for you, using the process THEY want you to use because you know what, you lose every single time you play the game that way.


If you REALLY want to take the fight to them you are going to have to take more risk. We as snowmobilers have to actively protest on the lands unconstitutionally closed to us. This mean much more than going to meetings and writing letters. If you can not see how that has failed us you are part of the problem. You are helping the other side by using the system they created. They use that system to incrementally steal more land from us and so far it has proven to be foolproof.


What you are suggesting has been tried and doesn't work. I have given you several examples and you still want to go the easy way, which does nothing but help the opposition.


FORCE the USFS to respond to you. They work for US, they do not lord over us, unless guys like you keep helping them do so. Ride EVERYTHING because we do no harm to anyone or anything when we do so. Put it on the other side to justify the closures instead of begging them not to close it on you.


You are fighting from a position of being subservent and weak. Stopping that practice is the first step to moving forward. What you currently propose has been tried, over and over and over again. You are wasting your time and doing nothing but help them move their agenda forward at your expense.

Red Mtn said:

Ride EVERYTHING because we do no harm to anyone or anything when we do so. Put it on the other side to justify the closures instead of begging them not to close it on you.

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So, let me get this straight - eff everyone else, it is all about YOU and YOUR recreation?

What makes you think that willfully disobeying closures is going to result in land getting opened?

I get it - they're public lands, which means you want to have your piece. The notion that you're not doing any "harm" to others is absurd, though - there _has_ to be some separation of motorized vs non-motorized lands; if you can't comprehend why a XC skier's user experience is negatively affected by snowmobile use, you need to think about it more. The non-motor crowd has just as much "right" to use public land, and it is unreasonable, rude and inconsiderate to act as though they should just put up with it because it is "your right."

People enjoy public lands in different ways, and if the way YOU choose to enjoy them has a negative impact on THEIR experience, that IS "harm." There needs to be places for them AND for us.

I agree that the way things have been done in terms of preserving legal riding areas have not been terribly effective, but I _strongly_ disagree with the notion that riding closed areas will benefit access. It just won't.

Riding closed areas is not going to "force the USFS" to justify a damned thing. All it'll do is get more areas closed. There was a newspaper article (Summit Daily?) a couple of years ago, they closed access at the end of a road near Breckenridge, and the person interviewed cited that the closure was BECAUSE snowmobiles were not respecting boundaries.

And if you're GOING to ride closed areas, at least do it in a way that people don't see you doing it. There's a place I ride occasionally that has a trailhead right out of the parking lot. Hiking trail. Posted no-motors. There's a small open area adjacent to the parking lot, moron snowmobilers ride that little field all the time.

Now, the sign is in reference to the TRAIL. I don't think that chunk of snow is actually illegal to ride, the trail is what's closed.

HOWEVER, it baffles me that idiots ride in the clearing - it is not exactly good riding, and it is RIGHT next to a parking lot full of various user groups.

All they know is that there's a sign right there with "no snowmobiles" on it, and hey, look, that's a snowmobiler willfully ignoring the sign!

ugh. Morons. I'd venture to guess that most non-motor users don't ACTIVELY work toward getting lands closed to motors. Some may not like us, most are probably indifferent, and a handful DO write letters/contribute to various groups/etc.

Riding RIGHT PAST a "no snowmobiles" sign seems like a REALLY good way to motivate someone into the "anti-OHV" parade. Don't TRY to make people mad. Most people don't care about anything. Provoke them, they'll start campaigning for what THEY want. Do we really want MORE people actively trying to limit where we can go?

The concept is called "sharing." Now, we do seem to wind up with the short straw more often than not, and some of the wilderness closures are absurd - NO ONE is using many of those lands in winter, sleds have minimal impact, etc etc etc - but intentionally riding closed areas is going to result in more closures, not fewer.

We can get a lot furhter out into the backcountry than other forms of non motorized recreation can.. the USFS needs to realize this...open those areas up to us so we can have freedom, away from the non motorized users.

But, we as a whole need to respect closed lands, as well as work on opening areas that are GREAT riding areas, but much further out than any weekend warrior XC skier is willing to travel to.

rhalloran said:

So, let me get this straight - eff everyone else, it is all about YOU and YOUR recreation?

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I never stated that, you are making a false inference there.

What makes you think that willfully disobeying closures is going to result in land getting opened?

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It will force the authorities to try and stop the "illegal" activity. They do not have the budget, nor will they ever, to patrol all of the lands they have wrongfully closed to sleds. It will force them to take another look at their policies.


Your argument that it will lead to more closed lands not less is humorous. What is the point of more closures if the ones you already have are not working?

I get it - they're public lands, which means you want to have your piece. The notion that you're not doing any "harm" to others is absurd, though - there _has_ to be some separation of motorized vs non-motorized lands; if you can't comprehend why a XC skier's user experience is negatively affected by snowmobile use, you need to think about it more. The non-motor crowd has just as much "right" to use public land, and it is unreasonable, rude and inconsiderate to act as though they should just put up with it because it is "your right."

People enjoy public lands in different ways, and if the way YOU choose to enjoy them has a negative impact on THEIR experience, that IS "harm." There needs to be places for them AND for us.

Click to expand...

Again, you are making false assumptions and putting words in my mouth that I did not utter. I am not advocating tormenting other user groups, you came up with that... In fact I usually ride in an area the non motorized crowd avoids anyway. The 8 miles of uphill road deters them without my having to harass anybody.

I agree that the way things have been done in terms of preserving legal riding areas have not been terribly effective, but I _strongly_ disagree with the notion that riding closed areas will benefit access. It just won't.

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How do you know this? Have you ever tried anything other than following the rules those stealing from you made? We constantly lose, we NEVER win back land. People like you allow them to continue to take lands from us because you are fool enough to believe that you can beat them at the game they created. They fight us using OUR tax dollars. It is beyond foolish to believe playing by the rules will work in your favor.

Riding closed areas is not going to "force the USFS" to justify a damned thing. All it'll do is get more areas closed. There was a newspaper article (Summit Daily?) a couple of years ago, they closed access at the end of a road near Breckenridge, and the person interviewed cited that the closure was BECAUSE snowmobiles were not respecting boundaries.

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The answer is to keep riding those lands. That was a seriously illegal closure. It is a buffer zone for already closed lands, which is not supposed to be allowed. Guys like you will obey this affront and lend credence to the other sides argument. DUDE, YOU are part of the problem, you have been for years.

And if you're GOING to ride closed areas, at least do it in a way that people don't see you doing it. There's a place I ride occasionally that has a trailhead right out of the parking lot. Hiking trail. Posted no-motors. There's a small open area adjacent to the parking lot, moron snowmobilers ride that little field all the time.

Now, the sign is in reference to the TRAIL. I don't think that chunk of snow is actually illegal to ride, the trail is what's closed.

HOWEVER, it baffles me that idiots ride in the clearing - it is not exactly good riding, and it is RIGHT next to a parking lot full of various user groups.

All they know is that there's a sign right there with "no snowmobiles" on it, and hey, look, that's a snowmobiler willfully ignoring the sign!

ugh. Morons. I'd venture to guess that most non-motor users don't ACTIVELY work toward getting lands closed to motors. Some may not like us, most are probably indifferent, and a handful DO write letters/contribute to various groups/etc.

Riding RIGHT PAST a "no snowmobiles" sign seems like a REALLY good way to motivate someone into the "anti-OHV" parade. Don't TRY to make people mad. Most people don't care about anything. Provoke them, they'll start campaigning for what THEY want. Do we really want MORE people actively trying to limit where we can go?

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Thanks for the advice on how to do it...LOL I certainly do not need help from a sell out like you when it comes to my outlaw ways. There are idiots on both sides of the fence son, not sure what the point of that part of your rant was...

The concept is called "sharing." Now, we do seem to wind up with the short straw more often than not, and some of the wilderness closures are absurd - NO ONE is using many of those lands in winter, sleds have minimal impact, etc etc etc - but intentionally riding closed areas is going to result in more closures, not fewer.

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We ALWAYS lose, that is what compromise is in this game, a net loss for sleds. You have NOTHING to base your claim on other than fear of losing more. At this point they are about ready to limit us to trails. Will you be willing to participate in a solution then or will you still just be willing to live with the rules?

Drewd said:

I strongly believe there is strength in numbers. Please try to be more welcoming of newbies and try to get as many people you know involved in sledding. Until our community is more inclusive and welcoming of newcomers, we'll never gain the numbers we need to be a unified opposing force to land closures. We need more and fresh blood in this sport/hobby or whatever you call it. Increased numbers also helps sustain the sled industry which should ultimately benefit all sledders.

Click to expand...

Red Mtn said:

I think sledders in general are VERY welcoming. This is an EXPENSIVE sport, that is the larger hurdle. Most new/young people simple can not afford a sled and a truck to haul it with. It isn't the current sledders holding new ones back. I am not sure what gave you that idea...

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One can find examples of unwelcoming snowmobilers on Snowest pretty easily.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3989987&postcount=8

rhalloran said:

One can find examples of unwelcoming snowmobilers on Snowest pretty easily.

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3989987&postcount=8

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Is that the best you can do? Stalk my posts you freak!


There is a guy that thinks flying his short track through the air is safer than travelling in the back country.


I would be happy to show him around if he were to buy a proper back country snow machine.


I am still interested in your response.... What is your plan when they are finally successful in limiting over snow travel to the dwindling trail network?


I suspect you haven't answered because you just don't know LOL. You keep playing by the liberals rules, just like your attempt at personalizing an attack against me. That guy is ALMOST as confused as you are...

Heh, not stalking, was just reading and found it amusing.

I've not replied to the other stuff because there's no point, it is not worth my time.