Do shocks really matter on a mountain sled?

Bburrap · Dec 5, 2013

Elka Suspension 100%

I run Elka shocks all around, so much better than stockers. Front suspension matters totally! Think end of the day, whooped out fire road, completely bagged and all ya wanna do is get down to your.... beer, bed, girl or whatever. Thats when you'll be thankful for the fronts!!

0% bottoming out its a thing of the past. I'm a fan!

alt · Dec 5, 2013

As everyone knows there are some really great shocks out there now. Me personally im a coil fan. Used to be air shocks all the way until I put on a set of Raptors. Guys will argue this to death, but "IMO" you cannot get the ride quality of a good coil shock in air. Especially with a triple rate spring. Sorry in my eyes just cant be done. Not starting a brawl, just the facts as I see them. Also the facts.. the Elkas and z bros are heavier than the raptors. The Z bros and Raptors are I believe the same $, and the Elkas are $550 a set more. "ALL" a kick azz set up that blows the stockers out of the running completely. Facts, that's all that is. Now you as the consumer can make the super tough call on what to buy. Not pushing shocks, again, just facts, so don't hate mail me lol. They matter! Thanks!
Dan

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 6, 2013

I just picked up a 2014 XM 163 and the first thing I did was replace the 2 stock soft rear springs to the stiffer springs. If your a big guy the stiffer springs will keep the rear skid from dragging through the snow much better than the stock springs.

DPG

rmk800ak · Dec 6, 2013

Didn't even ride my 14 freeride a mile and sent mine to Ian at Monster Performance for valve job and springs . Shocks for sure need to be setup for you and your style of riding it really makes the sled having a great skid setup .

backcountryislife · Dec 6, 2013

twmiller said:
I've got some Zero Pros on the skid of my 06 REV Summit. Will they fit the XM if I get them revalved?

I honestly don't know the specs on the 06, but it was a wider sled, and I assume the shocks were longer, so at minimum you'd need a spacer... but I don't know if they'd have a short enough compressed length.

Deep powder guy... you can do springs all you want, but the REAL issue with these shocks is damping. I'm over sprung for my weight, and I still bottom a LOT. (in 550 mi, I've bottomed this sled more than any other sled I've owned in the last 7 or so years) Damping is the real big issue here.

deaner · Dec 6, 2013

So for people who are knowledgable in the suspension department........is the stock XM skid a "good" skid with good shocks? Is it worth spending $1000 on shocks for it, or is a guy better off just spending the extra on a better designed skid?

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 6, 2013

backcountryislife said:
I honestly don't know the specs on the 06, but it was a wider sled, and I assume the shocks were longer, so at minimum you'd need a spacer... but I don't know if they'd have a short enough compressed length.

Deep powder guy... you can do springs all you want, but the REAL issue with these shocks is damping. I'm over sprung for my weight, and I still bottom a LOT. (in 550 mi, I've bottomed this sled more than any other sled I've owned in the last 7 or so years) Damping is the real big issue here.

Everything needs to work together.

DPG

twmiller · Dec 6, 2013

scratley said:
Stock shocks are pretty much shot after 500 miles

How can you tell when your shocks are shot? I've owned 3 sleds from new since I've been riding and sold them all at around 1500 miles. i couldn't tell that the shocks had deteriorated. What am I missing? What are the symptoms of bad shocks?

CBX · Dec 6, 2013

twmiller said:
How can you tell when your shocks are shot? I've owned 3 sleds from new since I've been riding and sold them all at around 1500 miles. i couldn't tell that the shocks had deteriorated. What am I missing? What are the symptoms of bad shocks?

You can tell when you have better shocks because Charlie Sheen comes walking out of the trees when you park. Takes a look around, and says "Winning".

backcountryislife · Dec 6, 2013

twmiller said:
How can you tell when your shocks are shot? I've owned 3 sleds from new since I've been riding and sold them all at around 1500 miles. i couldn't tell that the shocks had deteriorated. What am I missing? What are the symptoms of bad shocks?

the quickest way is to try another sled & feel the difference, but the main thing to look for is lack of damping. If the shocks feel like they blow right through the travel without the oil slowing them down at all, or the rebound feels "pogo-ey" you're running on shot shocks.

Obviously you would have been running them since new odds are, and haven't noticed the gradual degradation... so it's less obvious until you swap sleds since you're used to it.

Btw, got my 3's today, dropped the PSI & cycled them... holy crap WAAAAY more damping then even a brand new hpg, I'm stoked... might not even swap oil on these, as they feel like they'll be slow enough for me right off the bat! SWEET!

CoryHinsz · Dec 6, 2013

backcountryislife said:
the quickest way is to try another sled & feel the difference, but the main thing to look for is lack of damping. If the shocks feel like they blow right through the travel without the oil slowing them down at all, or the rebound feels "pogo-ey" you're running on shot shocks.

Obviously you would have been running them since new odds are, and haven't noticed the gradual degradation... so it's less obvious until you swap sleds since you're used to it.

Btw, got my 3's today, dropped the PSI & cycled them... holy crap WAAAAY more damping then even a brand new hpg, I'm stoked... might not even swap oil on these, as they feel like they'll be slow enough for me right off the bat! SWEET!

Did you just get the standard 3's, or the Evol's? I got the standard 3's from my dealer and they are supposed to have Ski-Doo specific valving. I hope to try them out this next weekend.

backcountryislife · Dec 7, 2013

CoryHinsz said:
Did you just get the standard 3's, or the Evol's? I got the standard 3's from my dealer and they are supposed to have Ski-Doo specific valving. I hope to try them out this next weekend.

I got the ones that came from doo... just regular 3's. funny to say "doo specific"... does that mean they removed the ENTIRE shim stack on both circuits to make them do nothing like the HPG's????

Btw, anyone know if it would be possible to run these on an XM? It says 121 track only. I can add spacers, put a new shaft on... I can do a lot to make it work, but no idea what is different

http://www.shoptomssnowmobile.com/Ski-Doo-HPG-SHOCK-KIT---REAR-SUSPENSION-detail.htm?productId=9726331&ez=Ski%20Doo%20Suspension%20And%20Forks&pos=4#/0

The 2 speed comp is a HUGE factor in my eyes, being used to running it in DH bikes, it allows you to do so much to make the shock do EXACTLY what you want it to. For this price it's hard to not want to at least SEE if I could make it work. The next more expensive 2 speed shock is around 2x the price.
As a jumper, this would be my ideal setup.

scratley · Dec 7, 2013

Going to honest where I ride here in Utah we ride almost zero trail.. Do my x model shocks in the front keep up with exits in rear? No they don't... Do I feel the need to upgrade front's no I don't.. But Like I said we don't have to ride trail... If I had 10 miles of trail to get to riding yes In a second I would upgrade fronts. Is the suspension upgrade worth it? To me yes it is.. 2 grand is a lot to dump in new skid though. I ride a lot around 40 rides a yr.. So I can justify to cost

luongo01 · Dec 7, 2013

Deep Powder Guy said:
I just picked up a 2014 XM 163 and the first thing I did was replace the 2 stock soft rear springs to the stiffer springs. If your a big guy the stiffer springs will keep the rear skid from dragging through the snow much better than the stock springs.

DPG

what parts number stiffer springs

Matte Murder · Dec 8, 2013

The XM has the best stock suspension for the trail. Handles bumps better than the Poo or Cat right out of the box. Off trail performance is also very good but those 3 makes are much closer and you could argue the Pro has better deep snow handling, especially steep downhill side hilling. The trouble is(like others have said) the shocks and springs fail pretty quick. Watch a guy sidehilling an XM through ruts and you see him fighting the bars and the uphill ski just pistoning up and down with no damping. You also lose some of the great carving ability pretty quick. The stock springs both front and rear are just junk. I have a Toms E on both of my XMs and one has Raptors on the front and the other EVOL Rs from Tom. Slight edge to the Raptors, mainly do to the adjustability in compression damping. I am going to put the new Float 3 Evol RC2 on one sled and see how those work. I had them on my Freeride and loved to be able to fiddle with them.

byeatts · Dec 8, 2013

Matte Murder said:
The XM has the best stock suspension for the trail. Handles bumps better than the Poo or Cat right out of the box. Off trail performance is also very good but those 3 makes are much closer and you could argue the Pro has better deep snow handling, especially steep downhill side hilling. The trouble is(like others have said) the shocks and springs fail pretty quick. Watch a guy sidehilling an XM through ruts and you see him fighting the bars and the uphill ski just pistoning up and down with no damping. You also lose some of the great carving ability pretty quick. The stock springs both front and rear are just junk. I have a Toms E on both of my XMs and one has Raptors on the front and the other EVOL Rs from Tom. Slight edge to the Raptors, mainly do to the adjustability in compression damping. I am going to put the new Float 3 Evol RC2 on one sled and see how those work. I had them on my Freeride and loved to be able to fiddle with them.

Good Read, I totally agree the raptor adjustability gets the edge, Th Evol R,s drops 12 lbs for all four. pick your weapon, there is a tradeoff either way.. I have yet found a Float that didnt need Re-valve to function as I want,They are Horrible right from the box. Tom Valved mine for the season and will have on the snow soon,, The Evol,s have an edge with the bottom resistant[R} chamber over the Raptors.

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 8, 2013

luongo01 said:
what parts number stiffer springs

I wish I could help you out with a part number the stamp is on the inside of the coil and very hard to read. If you call any doo dealer and explain to them you want a right and left spring stiffer than stock they should be able to provide you with what you need.

I'm reading a lot of opinions on shocks..I learned a long time ago that all shocks regardless of price require maintenance just like a clutch. Re-Valving every season is a must and if possible keeping the water out of the shock body will insure proper shock performance.

Another issue with shocks under performing will occurs every time when your rear suspension is packed in with snow. Take a few minutes when your stooped to dig out your suspension for better performance

DPG

snowmobiler · Dec 10, 2013

Ill spend $1000s on shocks when Pigs fly.crappy shocks make me a better rider.

moly may · Dec 10, 2013

snowmobiler said:
Ill spend $1000s on shocks when Pigs fly.crappy shocks make me a better rider.

LOL! Thats what i say too but in my case its just because i cant afford them at least for now

boondocker97 · Dec 10, 2013

snowmobiler said:
Ill spend $1000s on shocks when Pigs fly.crappy shocks make me a better rider.

So because you have to use more energy to ride your sled and make it do the things you want, that makes you a better rider? I better put just springs in place of my shocks then.

Your shocks are going to be worn out quicker if you ride more rough trail or jump a considerable amount. Highly dependant on riding style. There is no magic mileage number here. Shock oil gradually gets used up just like engine oil and needs to be changed. To make things worse, OEM shocks seem to have more air trapped in the oil since they are assembling them so quick the air bubbles don't have a chance to escape. Everytime air travels through the valving you are not getting any damping action from the shock.

Pushing on a shock in the shop will give you a slight idea of how it will behave for very slow compressions like weight transfer, but that's it. You can't even start to move the shaft as fast as it needs to open up the high speed valving.

backcountryislife - I am really considering putting a Fox reservoir and hose on the float rear shock of my new sled that has a high/low speed compression adjuster. Once you have that tuning ability, it really makes you wish you had it on everything else. Does HPG have any remote reservoirs you could buy resonably and add to your existing shock?

Do shocks really matter on a mountain sled?

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