Anyone know these idiots?

suitcase · Nov 23, 2014

I would like to hear from the people we have uncovered because they had a deacon and see what there take would be.
This is why so many people go into the backcountry unprepaired.

This is the mentalety that gets people into trouble, and the avid trail rider has no idea what he or she is getting into.

And first and foremost if you have the proper training you should not have multiple people on a hill at one time, so you will always have a witness.

The guy running the camera is the witness !

Needless to say if you don't have the proper avy gear you should never get off the trail.

If you ride with people that are not capible of helping you when your in a bad way , well you should stay on the trail. Or find new people to ride with.

No one ever plans on being burried, that is why we have the gear. It is why I have a avy pack. So it can increase my chance of going home.

At least use your negitive knowledge to educate people maybe you can help prevent someone from getting into a bad spot.

A beacon is like your insurance policey, you never intend on using it. But when you need it, sure is nice to have. Your insuranc will not save your life either!

One thing is for sure, if you are gonna ride the backcountry you better come prepaired.

By Someone being unprepaired you are sure to not make it home.

Why would you want an attitude that a deacon is not going to save you, but only in the rarest of situations.

Sorry That Is Just Stupid

nuggetau · Nov 23, 2014

suitcase said:
I would like to hear from the people we have uncovered because they had a deacon and see what there take would be.
This is why so many people go into the backcountry unprepaired.

This is the mentalety that gets people into trouble, and the avid trail rider has no idea what he or she is getting into.

And first and foremost if you have the proper training you should not have multiple people on a hill at one time, so you will always have a witness.

The guy running the camera is the witness !

Needless to say if you don't have the proper avy gear you should never get off the trail.

If you ride with people that are not capible of helping you when your in a bad way , well you should stay on the trail. Or find new people to ride with.

No one ever plans on being burried, that is why we have the gear. It is why I have a avy pack. So it can increase my chance of going home.

At least use your negitive knowledge to educate people maybe you can help prevent someone from getting into a bad spot.

A beacon is like your insurance policey, you never intend on using it. But when you need it, sure is nice to have. Your insuranc will not save your life either!

One thing is for sure, if you are gonna ride the backcountry you better come prepaired.

By Someone being unprepaired you are sure to not make it home.

Why would you want an attitude that a deacon is not going to save you, but only in the rarest of situations.

Sorry That Is Just Stupid

You have drank the cool-aid, like far too many people you view the beacon as a get out of an avalanche free card, it isn't. You and much of the snowmobile community will continue to believe it.

Over the last 10 years only 9.6 snowmobilers a year have died from avalanche. 96 in 10 years. There are at least a thousand different ways we humans can die that are far more likely to kill us than dying in an avalanche so I consider it "much to do about nothing". We all will die from something, better a quick death in an avalanche, than a slow lingering death from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, or pneumonia which is how most of us will end up. So, it doesn't terrify me like it does most of you, very low risk by comparison to most daily activities.

If you want no risk, then stay home and play a board game, that is the safest option, right?

nuggetau · Nov 23, 2014

Can anyone find any direct statistics about people who were rescued solely because of beacons? Meaning there was no visual cue at the surface to indicate where to look. I can't find any?

suitcase · Nov 23, 2014

No cool aid here, I race motocross, ride big backcountry, heli skied, rode ruff stock when I was younger. Broken bones, been hauled away in an ambulance. Not much really scares me, But I will not ride with out the proper gear, and I will not ride with someone that does not have the proper gear. I roll the dice everyday with my work and my hobbies. Im pretty comfy wearing my avy gear so if something does happen I may have a little better chance of coming home to my wife and son. than someone that has no gear at all.. You go ahead and roll the dice all you want.. good luck in your extreme doings.

Oh and those 96 deaths in 10 years, That number would of been way less if they would have all been wearing the proper gear. No not all it would of mattered, but time after time people are saved because of the proper gear.

All your info my be correct, but lets not cut off your nose because your face is ugly.. no pun intended.

snowmobiler · Nov 23, 2014

I wont ride to the mountain with anybody that dont own a semi with airbags and cpr training. LOL

nuggetau · Nov 23, 2014

suitcase said:
No cool aid here, I race motocross, ride big backcountry, heli skied, rode ruff stock when I was younger. Broken bones, been hauled away in an ambulance. Not much really scares me, But I will not ride with out the proper gear, and I will not ride with someone that does not have the proper gear. I roll the dice everyday with my work and my hobbies. Im pretty comfy wearing my avy gear so if something does happen I may have a little better chance of coming home to my wife and son. than someone that has no gear at all.. You go ahead and roll the dice all you want.. good luck in your extreme doings.

Oh and those 96 deaths in 10 years, That number would of been way less if they would have all been wearing the proper gear. No not all it would of mattered, but time after time people are saved because of the proper gear.

All your info my be correct, but lets not cut off your nose because your face is ugly.. no pun intended.

Let me put your life in perspective.

Do you drive the one and only vehicle that is deemed statistically most safe? You value your life and your family members, right?

Do you only eat wild game and organically grown food and consume no sugar or chemicals or transfat? DO you smoke, do you drink?

Are you under 10% bodyfat, have low blood pressure, and exercise hard at least 4 times a week?

You get where I'm going with this, you fixate on something that statistically has very little chance of killing you, yet you and nearly everyone reading this is making daily choices that are far more dangerous and will without a doubt shorten your life or kill you.

So, you might want to get down off that high horse and get yourself some perspective!

Wapow · Nov 23, 2014

nuggetau said:
In reality, very few people are actually saved by beacons! In most situations it is about body recovery.

Here is the reality you don't want to hear about:

If you are buried below 1' in depth your chances of surviving are not good, beyond 2-3' you are a goner most of the time, beacon or not! For the most part, the people who are successfully recovered are the ones with some part of their body being exposed allowing them to be found very fast.

Now lets talk about a real situation, first and foremost the avalanche must be witnessed by someone else(if you are buried), or you die, beacon or no beacon.

Now the witness needs to get to the area where the person is buried, a fresh avalanche is very difficult to ride in, most won't be able to get that close to the burial, which means they have to get off the sled and hike through the chest deep snow to the burial(very exhausting), then get out their beacon, unfold their probe, look around and try and find the general area that the burial took place and where the avalanche most likely would have carried the body. Now you start your search, once you find the signal you probe and probe until you find something, now you have to get out your shovel, put it together and start digging. Most out of shape people will already be nackered before they even start digging. Have you ever dug in hard compacted avalanche snow? It's damned hard work and slow, so you better be lean, young and strong, and aerobically conditioned or you will have gassed out long before you find your friend or loved one.

As 2/3 of our population IS NOW OVERWEIGHT OR OBESE having any expectation that your fat friend is going to be able to do all of the above in less than 10 minutes(survival beyond this happens, but is pretty rare) is folly!

If you are buried in an avalanche you will most likely die, beacon or no beacon, because most people will not be able to get to you, find you, and dig you out before you suffocate(provided you didn't suffer injuries that already killed you). That is the reality, if you can't accept that, then stick to the meadows and the trail, the likelihood that a beacon is going to be the thing that saves your life is very very slim!

Yes, I'm certain someone can point to a few exceptions where a beacon helped to locate someone faster, or at least fast enough, but all the stars have to line up for it to save your life.

If the guy looking for you is fat and out of shape you are dead!

Think I'm exaggerating? Ask your fat friend to get off his sled, sprint uphill through chest deep snow for a hundred yards, then have him wander around for a few minutes looking,(if he hasn't already lost his lunch) then have him dig a hole in hard compacted snow down 3'. I am willing to bet he can't do it under 20 minutes, most of the time you have less than 10 minutes.

People have heavily bought into the beacon thing as a life saver(on the rarest occasion), most of the time it is a body recovery tool.

Ha! Should we tear out the airbags from our cars too?

It's true that beacons are a poor safety net (far better to learn and practice effective avy avoidance practices), but I know of several "miracle" digs where folks were saved after being buried far longer than 20 minutes. There's plenty of beacon success stories on the avy sites if you want to do a little research. And a lot of saves go unreported. I think most would agree that the mere possibility of being saved is sufficient to justify wearing a beacon. I'm sure your family would agree.

As for OP: There are times when it's "safe" to break the rules. Generally, it's when you have a lot of familiarity with the snow pack you are ridiing, there have been no recent avys in the area (as verified on your local avy site), no signs of instability in the snow through your own observations that day, and no changes in weather. That said, poking around on every face and aspect with a 600 pound fully loaded, 150 hp tractoring machine, is a great way to find a unique instability.

nuggetau · Nov 23, 2014

Wapow said:
Ha! Should we tear out the airbags from our cars too?

It's true that beacons are a poor safety net (far better to learn and practice effective avy avoidance practices), but I know of several "miracle" digs where folks were saved after being buried far longer than 20 minutes. There's plenty of beacon success stories on the avy sites if you want to do a little research. And a lot of saves go unreported. I think most would agree that the mere possibility of being saved is sufficient to justify wearing a beacon. I'm sure your family would agree.

As for OP: There are times when it's "safe" to break the rules. Generally, it's when you have a lot of familiarity with the snow pack you are ridiing, there have been no recent avys in the area (as verified on your local avy site), no signs of instability in the snow through your own observations that day, and no changes in weather. That said, poking around on every face and aspect with a 600 pound fully loaded, 150 hp tractoring machine, is a great way to find a unique instability.

Yes, at least the airbags made by Takata.

2Thetopp · Nov 23, 2014

nuggetau said:
Can anyone find any direct statistics about people who were rescued solely because of beacons? Meaning there was no visual cue at the surface to indicate where to look. I can't find any?

Not going to argue either way, don't ride with one if that's how you roll, but not in my group. My only example was in 2004 (when I used to ride without a beacon) a buddy riding with a new group was given a beacon to ride with this group, he had never used one previously.After taking a break later in the day they decided to go back out for an hour or two, they hand his beacon to him, he said no that's alright we're only going out for a short ride. One of the guys slipped it into his pocket before he put his coat on. Half hour later a rider above them set of an avy and he was buried completely, nothing exposed, found because of the beacon, blue not breathing, recovered and very lucky. He was close to death and he was (wearing) a beacon, without he certainly would have died. Later that season I was in an avy (no beacon) was able to out run, got lucky, will never ride without one again, I got my once, at least give yourself a chance,if not for you, your riding partners .

suitcase · Nov 23, 2014

Hahahahah

I can see your way smarter than anyone, If you chose to ride the back country without gear have at it. Ill go ride somewhere else we can recover your body later. Im sure there is a reason you dont think having the proper avy gear is worth carring. I wont even go into that.
Have a good time.

nuggetau · Nov 23, 2014

suitcase said:
Hahahahah

I can see your way smarter than anyone, If you chose to ride the back country without gear have at it. Ill go ride somewhere else we can recover your body later. Im sure there is a reason you dont think having the proper avy gear is worth carring. I wont even go into that.
Have a good time.

Actually, you can just leave my body in the avy, no burial expenses, the wolves, coyotes, and buzzards get a snack come spring!

I could care less what happens to this meat sack when I am done living in it.

If life were that valuable we would spend the tens of millions spent on beacons and save thousands of lives drilling wells in third world countries, not just a couple avy victims, one more reason I think this whole subject is a pile of ................

Tree Boss · Nov 25, 2014

2 of these riders are members on here they just don't get on the forum much. I ride with them on a regular basis and the guy that is in the lead through most of the video is by far doing beacon search practices more then anyone I ride with. It seems like most people aren't jumping to conclusions but I'm betting he did a stability test because he is one of the only riders I go with that I've seen take the time to do one.

wstev · Dec 10, 2014

nuggetau I hope I never get to ride with you.

sconnierider · Dec 13, 2014

Sketchy riding

No amount of snowpack check ever qualify for more than one rider on the slope at a time with the others sitting in a safe area. This applies to slopes 30-45 degrees. That slope they were on has a history. Thin trees.....

Sledsniper · Dec 16, 2014

The Really?

My moms and her friends ride like that all the time.
I tell her how unsafe it is all the time.
She just won't listen.
Hopefully she sees this and how unapproved it is and STOPS !!!

Jaynelson · Dec 17, 2014

nuggetau said:
There are at least a thousand different ways we humans can die that are far more likely to kill us than dying in an avalanche

As an overall percentage, yes. A person (in general) is more likely to be killed in a car accident (for example) than an avalanche.

But 95% (made up number - but safe to say a very high percentage) of the population has never been (and will never be) in backcountry avalanche terrain....so whatever that statistic is, it means precisely d!ck all...with regards to sledding in avalanche terrain.

There are ways to increase and decrease the odds of either event significantly. If you are drunk and trying to find music on your phone while speeding on icey roads, with summer tires, at night....are your odds of crashing the same as someone driving responsibly down to the corner store? Hell no.

Why do racetracks require more and more safety equipment the faster your car gets? Because the odds of crashing go up, and the odds of that crash being life threatening go up. More people die on highways than racetracks but that doesn't mean sh!t. Because that statistic would be mostly due to the fact....most people never visit racetracks. And secondly, due to the additional safety measures allowing you to have a more serious accident and still survive. So do you need a beacon to ride in areas with no avalanche paths or danger? Probably not, but the more aggressive the terrain and riding get, the worse the odds get, and the more stuff you should have to better the odds.

So, to blanket "snowmobiling" or even "snowmobiling in the mountains" as having one risk rating for avalanche deaths is completely off base. The risk is not the same for all riders, all areas, or all terrain. Even if it were, the snow conditions could change that risk significantly on any given day. Obviously the idea is to avoid avalanches altogether.....just like the racecar driver wants to avoid crashing altogether.....but he still has the proper equipment to better the odds in case of an accident.

nuggetau · Dec 17, 2014

Jay

When I go backpacking with other guys they are afraid of heights, bugs, coyotes, wolves, weather, and bears, so very afraid of bears.

When I go riding with guys they are afraid of the weather, heights, terrain, getting lost, of having to spend a night outdoors, and the ever present fear of avalanche.

When did men get so fearful? Afraid of everything! Thank god the government is here to help! OHSHA makes everything safe for us! The government forces us to wear helmets to keep us safe! The government forces us to wear safety belts to keep us safe! The litany of safety measures we have grown up with have brainwashed us to fear everything, including life, and has made men a bunch of weak whiny bitches! Can't someone please make me safe?

People tend to fixate on the wrong things that will hurt them. The same people who are frantic if someone isn't wearing a beacon are the same people who are 20-100lbs overweight, or smoke, or do drugs, or don't exercise, or eat crap food that clogs their heart, or they drive drunk..................... all those things are far more likely to kill you and are pervasive in our society.

Approximately 55,000 people die every single day, many of those deaths are preventable, are you, or your beacon wearing comrades on a crusade to save them as well? NO, why not? I don't value a snowmobilers life any more than any other life. If saving lives really mattered to you or the other beacon fanatics you would sell your sleds, trailers, etc and take all that money you saved and actually save some of those 55,000 people every day. You all could literally save thousands of lives everyday, compared to the 6-7 snowmobilers a year that you all seem so concerned about!

Life is cheap, with more than 7 billion people on this rock we need to make room. In the past 115 years it is estimated that the human population has grown in excess of 700%. With all the talk about the environment, the explosion in the human population is virtually never mentioned.

I see old people and the lives they lead after about age 75, they spend their days napping, watching tv, and endless trips to the doctor to get more pills. I'm not much interested in that path, looks like hell to me!

Most Americans end up in deaths waiting room (nursing homes) lingering in their own excrement waiting for the grim reaper. So given the choice between a quick death that only lasts a couple minutes in an avalanche, or a slow lingering painful death most people endure(choose). I choose avalanche. No one gets out of this world alive, you gotta die of something.

I am more concerned with the quality of my life than the quantity, living in an endless state of fear is not a path to a quality life.

But it is your life, so you get to decide for yourself. I know I get pretty prickly when some dickhead wants to tell me how he thinks I should live mine! :face-icon-small-win

Jaynelson · Dec 17, 2014

I don't disagree that a massively overweight dude who smokes, drinks and drives (for example), but gets all bent out of shape over beacon usage has some irony in it.

I definitely don't disagree that the world is overpopulated. Nor that there are too many "kid gloves," rules, and regulations for people who are afraid of everything.

I do disagree that avy gear should be viewed, or described as inconsequential. I feel like living for as long as possible cause it's fun, and I have some sh!t I'd still like to do. So if there's an easy, affordable, and logical way to better those odds for any given task....I usually try to take it. Avy gear fits in to that catagory for me and many other people.. I also like sledding to be promoted in as positive a light as possible, and people dying in avys, particularly without proper gear or precautions, is counter-productive to that.

If avy gear isn't worthwhile for you, that's fine. It might make for a (potentially avoidable) bad day for your riding partners, friends, family, etc. But that's your call. I'm all for personal responsibility, and I'm not trying to convince anyone they should wear a seatbelt or what-have-you. But to say it doesn't have the potential to change the outcome - is inaccurate....IMO.

nuggetau · Dec 17, 2014

I look at it this way. If saving lives is the goal(hypocritical BS), then don't buy a sled that can injure you! Then you can spend all the money you would have spent on sleds, travel, fuel, oil, parts, clothing, etc. on vaccinating kids in third world countries, or drilling water wells, etc. The money one snowmobiler spends in a year could save hundreds if not thousands of lives a year. So, that argument about saving lives is pure B.S.!

The insistence that we should all carry a beacon is about your own personal fear of dying in an avalanche, and you desperately want someone to be able to dig your *** out before you suffocate. On the rarest of occasion, that might be true, even so, if life is so valuable, then your logic would dictate that you not participate in the activity, and that allows you to save other lives through your generosity that was wasted in a life endangering activity.

You beacon Nazi's want it both ways, you want to indulge in the dangerous behavior but not suffer the consequences, and worst of all in my opinion, is you insist that everyone else has to participate in this charade!

Jaynelson · Dec 17, 2014

I'm not insisting on anything - so I'm guessing "you" is others in general. You started your argument by saying beacons aren't worth it, or don't work very often....but have morphed in to "well if you're trying to save lives, don't go sledding or encourage sledding at all because children are starving in Africa."

Given this is a snowmobile site, it's kind of obvious everyone is going (or wants to go) sledding. So given your 2nd argument is pointless....I was addressing the first

Your argument is the same for any other safety equipment for any other recreational sport/activity. Helmets, seatbelts, roll cages, neck brakes, fire suppression systems, you name it. All are attempts to "indulge in the dangerous behavior but not suffer the consequences." Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they might have worked, but weren't used - so we'll never know. Can't blame anyone for trying to eliminate that last variable and encouraging others to do so.

You promoting your non-use of gear is no different than those doing the opposite. I stand by my statement from above:

"If avy gear isn't worthwhile for you, that's fine. It might make for a (potentially avoidable) bad day for your riding partners, friends, family, etc. But that's your call."

Anyone know these idiots?

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