Engine failures

powwow · Mar 8, 2019

I know there have been some engine failures in the ctec. Is there a primary cause? Does the 2020 top end fix that? I am trying to decide between the Alpha and the Axys 850. With the one year warranty on the cat I would like to know at how many miles these failures are happening, so I can determine how much warranty should be purchased. Trying to get demo to see if I like it. Looks like they might have it sold. If I cannot get some seat time it will be off the list. Heard lots of good things about the Alpha and a few bad. I'm an an Axys right now and know alot about them. Where the Alpha is pretty unknown to me. I havent rode a Cat since my 10 m8.

Big10inch · Mar 8, 2019

They all have some engine failures... Cat and Doo not nearly as many as Poo but it can happen.

Causes? Personally I think the EPA mandates to clean up 2 stroke emissions is the root of the problem. They are trying to make as much power as possible and burn as little oil as they can get away with. I think some machines, and some use of the machines require more oil than they are getting. When I buy a c-tech, I will be adding oil to the gas tank, cheap insurance. I think the new ones regardless of manufacturer all need more oil than they are getting. Lower oil consumption and lower fuel consumption are a double edged sword for a 2 stroke. They are compromising durability for the sake of emissions.

I personally have not seen enough c-tech failures that the concern even pops up on my radar, pretty rare occurrence. I think a second year of warranty is usually a good idea. I do not see lack of warranty coverage by Cat or Doo as an issue. I wouldn't own a Polaris without a warranty. Good Luck

Dam Dave · Mar 8, 2019

I haven't "seen" any failures and my 18 Ctec runs flawless at 1000 miles, I did have to replace a broken exhaust spring

every brand of anything has failures, these are very high performance engines ridden in a very harsh environment

you will not find many production two strokes running this kind of horsepower per liter

stuff happens, good luck with the 850 Poo

madmax · Mar 8, 2019

I only have personally seen one c-tec 800 failure and it was user error on some after market products added on. I know there are some around, but not many. Personally I wouldn’t buy an extended warranty unless you’re going to keep your sled for a long time and put a lot of miles on per year.

tenacious84 · Mar 8, 2019

Big10inch said:
They all have some engine failures... Cat and Doo not nearly as many as Poo but it can happen.

Causes? Personally I think the EPA mandates to clean up 2 stroke emissions is the root of the problem. They are trying to make as much power as possible and burn as little oil as they can get away with. I think some machines, and some use of the machines require more oil than they are getting. When I buy a c-tech, I will be adding oil to the gas tank, cheap insurance. I think the new ones regardless of manufacturer all need more oil than they are getting. Lower oil consumption and lower fuel consumption are a double edged sword for a 2 stroke. They are compromising durability for the sake of emissions.

I personally have not seen enough c-tech failures that the concern even pops up on my radar, pretty rare occurrence. I think a second year of warranty is usually a good idea. I do not see lack of warranty coverage by Cat or Doo as an issue. I wouldn't own a Polaris without a warranty. Good Luck

The reduced oil consumption combined with small gaps in the intake is my belief to the root cause of most of the engine failures. With the Suzuki motor, the extra oil would cover-up these fitment deficiencies and no one was the wiser. Now, with the reduced oiling of the ctec2 800, they are more susceptible to snow ingestion. Even the update for the 2018 model's intake doesn't go far enough to clean up all the gaps. I know the first thing i would do if i bought a new sled is to verify there are no gaps throughout the entire intake.

thump426er · Mar 9, 2019

My 18 MC seized solid today, 1700 miles (2700 kms), bone stock other than the B&M Fab bumper to fix my bent tunnel from lifting it out of a trench.

Thankfully we didn’t get where we we planning to go or it would have been a heli out.

Every Suzuki M sled I had (4of them) I sold at 7000 kms, my Pro and Axys both at 7k also. None have had any issues save for minor things.

As I just got off the mtn with it tonight I don’t know the issue yet but I immediately start thinking that the 2020 changes are due to Textron having to pay out too much in warranty work for engine issues so it’s worth the redesign and tooling changes to fix. Money rules the roost. I don’t know the failure rate they would need to see but guessing there’s a lot to warrant the cost of change after only 2 years for ctec.

So now, assuming it’s covered by warranty since I still have 1.5 yrs of that left, I’m now questioning whether I can trust it once a new motor is in. I get it that mechanicals fail, regardless of brand, but reliability is high on my list of wants when I’m in the sticks.

Old & slow · Mar 9, 2019

thump426er said:
My 18 MC seized solid today, 1700 miles (2700 kms), bone stock other than the B&M Fab bumper to fix my bent tunnel from lifting it out of a trench.

Thankfully we didn’t get where we we planning to go or it would have been a heli out.

Every Suzuki M sled I had (4of them) I sold at 7000 kms, my Pro and Axys both at 7k also. None have had any issues save for minor things.

As I just got off the mtn with it tonight I don’t know the issue yet but I immediately start thinking that the 2020 changes are due to Textron having to pay out too much in warranty work for engine issues so it’s worth the redesign and tooling changes to fix. Money rules the roost. I don’t know the failure rate they would need to see but guessing there’s a lot to warrant the cost of change after only 2 years for ctec.

So now, assuming it’s covered by warranty since I still have 1.5 yrs of that left, I’m now questioning whether I can trust it once a new motor is in. I get it that mechanicals fail, regardless of brand, but reliability is high on my list of wants when I’m in the sticks.

That's crappy luck at least you got it back without the heli. It would be interesting to find the root cause. Mechanical things tend to fail very early or late in life. Yours was right in the prime along with some others i have seen on the forms. To me there is something causing this not a parts issue. I believe as others have stated it's a water issue combined with reduced oil consumption. I do not own a C-tec yet, but if I do first thing is install a pre- filter, seal the intake with silicone and premix a little oil. You should not have to do that (AC should have done when they built it) but it would be some easy steps for reliability. With regards to the 20 engine improvements retooling and changes don't happen that quickly. The manufacture is usually planning out 3 or more years. In 2017 Doo brought out the 850,AC was most likely working on the 2020 changes already. They knew the 800 would need more hp to compete and building a bigger bore wasn't going to happen. Cash is king and AC didn't have extra. These decisions were most likely made before Textron came along.

M8onEdge · Mar 9, 2019

thump426er said:
My 18 MC seized solid today, 1700 miles (2700 kms), bone stock other than the B&M Fab bumper to fix my bent tunnel from lifting it out of a trench.

That sucks. Curious if water was involved? I wondered the same thing about the 2020 changes - are they trying to compete with the 850s or fixing an issue that hurts the bottom line?

It's really hard to get good data on engine failures. My dealer is pretty small. Sold 50 alpha's. Not sure how many ctecs total. Said they've rebuilt 5 all appeared to be snow ingestion. My crank bearing failed due to an oil line falling off and he said this was the first crank he had done on a ctec. My son is friends with a mechanic that works at a different dealer that sells Poo, Doo and cat. Says cat motors, including the ctec, are still the fewest failures. They rebuild a good number of Doos once they get over 2000 miles....and of course Polaris keeps them busy. Who knows. I do know I hate to give up the mid range the ctec has. Rented a Doo the other day for my daughter and the power band on that thing wasn't as appealing to me...not to mention the completely strange front end that takes some serious time to get comfortable with. Good luck with your rebuild! I have one now as well due to a stupid oil line so I'd keep an eye on those....fitment is loose.

EOREGON · Mar 9, 2019

I haven't been in the snowmobile world very long but it seems to me that all these really high performance 2 strokes are ticking time bombs. It's really not a question of if but when. They could probably back them off and make them more reliable but then everyone would complain that they don't have as much power as x brand. The 800 ctech is super strong and from what I've seen will give the 850's a run for they're money.

What's the consensus on adding a little bit of oil to the gas? Is that really whats causing all the issues? EPA regulations at there best right?

As far as engines going down each brand does it, heard of a Doo 850 going down just the other day with 900 miles on it. Also a Polaris 850 going down not sure how many miles it had but they took it to the dealer here in town a week ago and they're season is basically over. The dealer had like 40 sleds in front of his to fix, can't imagine he's too happy with that.

cycology1 · Mar 9, 2019

EOREGON said:
What's the consensus on adding a little bit of oil to the gas? Is that really whats causing all the issues? EPA regulations at there best right?.

same question here...was initially against the idea, but a couple of? ot more? any long term effects to gumming up the fuel side if it wasn't designed for this?

thump426er · Mar 10, 2019

With my axys I would randomly add a dollop of oil to the tank, and by random I mean maybe 2 out of 10 fills. So likely just wasted oil.

Talking to the service mgr today says there’s no need to add oil to the tank. He figures my oil consumption was a tad on the low side but still in the range of acceptable.

I also have a hard time thinking that the ratio of oil in these things is enough. I’ve literally used 3.5 gallons of oil for ~2750 kms. On average about 65 km rides and I generally throw in around 30 litres of fuel. All average numbers here. But that works out to roughly 1375 litres of fuel for 13.25 litres of oil, roughly 100:1. Figure a good portion went to break in. That seem like an inhospitable environment for an 8000 rpm 2 stroke to live in.

Big10inch · Mar 10, 2019

thump426er said:
With my axys I would randomly add a dollop of oil to the tank, and by random I mean maybe 2 out of 10 fills. So likely just wasted oil.

Talking to the service mgr today says there’s no need to add oil to the tank. He figures my oil consumption was a tad on the low side but still in the range of acceptable.

I also have a hard time thinking that the ratio of oil in these things is enough. I’ve literally used 3.5 gallons of oil for ~2750 kms. On average about 65 km rides and I generally throw in around 30 litres of fuel. All average numbers here. But that works out to roughly 1375 litres of fuel for 13.25 litres of oil, roughly 100:1. Figure a good portion went to break in. That seem like an inhospitable environment for an 8000 rpm 2 stroke to live in.

I would find a new service department. That service manager doesn't have a clue. This is simple to figure out. For years Cat has run the suzuki and had the best reliability. The zuk drinks oil, mine goes through roughly a quart per 30-40 mile ride. As soon as manufacturers reduced oil use, problems increased. Getting your fuel/oil ratio back to 40:1 or even 50:1 will help these engines to live longer. Figuring out your consumption and adding oil to the tank to adjust the ratio is one of the smarter moves you can make to keep your high strung 2 stroke alive.

Motorbreath_ · Mar 10, 2019

thump426er said:
As I just got off the mtn with it tonight I don’t know the issue yet but I immediately start thinking that the 2020 changes are due to Textron having to pay out too much in warranty work for engine issues so it’s worth the redesign and tooling changes to fix. Money rules the roost. I don’t know the failure rate they would need to see but guessing there’s a lot to warrant the cost of change after only 2 years for ctec.

I was thinking the changes were made to up the horsepower. They have gone from calling it a 160hp class engine to a 165hp class engine. I may be wrong. Just something I assumed on my own. Would be nice if both of us were right.

slyrydr · Mar 10, 2019

i add oil at the rate of 1oz per gallon of gas....drops the oil ratio of about 60-70 to one down to about 40-45 to one...no apparent problems, spark plugs look good, engine runs well...i think this is important especially due to the intake leaking snow dust, despite considerable efforts to minimize it...small inconvenience compared to engine problems..:face-icon-small-con

Snowman.PRO. · Mar 11, 2019

Did I read that right some people are seeing 90:1 or worse on the new ctec2? Damn EPA!

All the polaris guys I know that have engines that last add oil to the fuel and on the pros(mechanical pump) they turn it up.

Axys silber turbo tune turns up the electric pump.

thump426er · Mar 17, 2019

Update on my oil consumption. Found another empty gallon jug, so it calculates to ~75:1

BlueDevil · Mar 17, 2019

I have ran two-stroke engines for a long long time. All sizes and brands and a two stroke engine needs oil! I run all engines at 40:1 and never lost a engine due to lack of Lubrication. Don’t be afraid to add some oil to your tank like some have mentioned before

ltmfb · Mar 17, 2019

BlueDevil said:
I have ran two-stroke engines for a long long time. All sizes and brands and a two stroke engine needs oil! I run all engines at 40:1 and never lost a engine due to lack of Lubrication. Don’t be afraid to add some oil to your tank like some have mentioned before

But does that really get the oil where it needs to go?

Big10inch · Mar 18, 2019

ltmfb said:
But does that really get the oil where it needs to go?

In the ctech it does. Pretty sure it is a similar set up to the suzuki with injectors in the throttle bodies and the fuel air mixture goes through the bottom end, up the transfer ports into the cylinders.

I know it is of little help on the Polaris and probably the Doo where the fuel no longer goes through the bottom end like an old school 2 stroke.

summ8rmk · Mar 18, 2019

Ctec injects fuel/oil mix both, on top of the piston and through the slot in the piston to lube and cool the bottom end.
Oil is injected into fuel rail and mixed prior to fuel injectors.
There is also oil injected at the throttle bodies, similar to a carbed sled.
Then of course, all the crank bearings have oil injected.

tapatio...

Engine failures

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