Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 8)

ruffryder said:

WMC, according to your own quote, you are the one being "one-sided"

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Yes, true if your side will not talk to us, what are we left with?

ruffryder, this post from the other thread addresses your comment here also-

The compromise is that we talk and try to work it out rather than just oppose each other and try for winner-take-all.

When snowmobile management changes per the ORV Executive Order per the WWA Petition, there will be discussion, justification, collaboration, and compromise for any area that will be designated for snowmobile use. We could get started now in collaboration and compromise, instead of your side saying "no" and WMC going for implementation of our entire proposal.

WMC has secured a meeting place offer by a person from within the snowmobile industry who will host a meeting. At this time, the "single-sided approach" is the situation on the snowmobile side, however WMC has diligently worked to include all sides in the discussion, debate, and proposed meeting. It is time for snowmobile interests and Organizations to step up as citizens and meet with other citizens with other Forest uses and discuss, debate, collaborate rather than the boilerplate "single-sided approach."

Thanks for the discussion.

WMC said:

(quote)
.......Given the single sided approach pursued by the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition thus far, little respect has been paid to the established legal process on which our public land usage regulations are founded.
(end quote)

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This is what I am talking about when it seems you are getting called out on your single sided approach and your "little respect" for established legal processes, trying to circumvent peoples rights to have their input.

These are important points for many people.

ruffryder said:

This is what I am talking about when it seems you are getting called out on your single sided approach and your "little respect" for established legal processes, trying to circumvent peoples rights to have their input.

These are important points for many people.

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Mr ruffryder, do you have an idea other than WMC just goes away, that we ask for nothing for winter non-motorized recreation?

Should we continue to just debate "yes it is" "no it is not" or should we try to meet face-to-face and try to understand each other? Any "compromise" will be approved and implemented by USFS. Thus far, we find established strong relationships with snowmobile interests and USFS and see that winter non-motorized groups and their uses are not at the forefront of USFS consideration. But that is changing.

It is time for snowmobile interests and Organizations to step up as citizens and meet with other citizens with other Forest uses and discuss, debate, collaborate rather than the boilerplate "single-sided approach."

Thank you.

WNC...you and your so called single sided approach have included a lot of lies. You are Rondondee and we all know it, heck you have been using the same computer with the same IP adress!. You say you have a sled or three..same as Rondondee. I will tell you lilttle man...Respect is earned here. It is not handed out because you just show up.


As far as I am concerned you dont deserve the time of day. As far as the so called foul words that you accuse others of calling you...have you ever just looked in the mirror and realized that you actually were just that?

You have done basically everything you can do to lose respect for yourself and others like you. Ruffy is far more intelligent than what I ahve seen from you MR. Copy/Paste and you cant even understand or try to understand what he is even saying.

As far as I am concerned your IP should be banned

IF people can contact these groups and get them on board it may help. I have already contacted Executive Management at Polaris Industries.

American Council Snowmobile Association
American Recreation Coalition
American Snowmobile Magazine
American Trails
Antique Snowmobile Club of America, Inc
Arctic Cat
Avalanche Education-U.S.
Avalanche Education-Canada
Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC)
Ski-Doo/Bombardier Recreational Products (BRP)
Canadian Council of Snowmobile Organizations
Ehlert Publishing Group Inc.
International Snowmobile Hall of Fame
Maximum Sled Worldwide
Polaris
Snow Action Magazine
Snow Connection Magazine
Snow Goer Canada Magazine
Snowmobile Paradise — the official site of the Travel Associations of Ontario
SnoWest Magazine
SnowmobileGuys.com - the biggest and best snowmobile resource
Snowmobile Hall of Fame
Snowmobiler Television
SnowRider Magazine
Snowtrails TV
Supertrax Magazine
The Snowmobile Homepage
Yamaha Motor Corporation, USA

Thanks for taking time here to those having legitimate discussion. WMC has endeavored to meet with snowmobile enthusiasts and with snowmobile Organization Officers, that is why we have continued the discussion.

WMC has meet with one snowmobile-industry-person, our first meeting outside of WMC. We have consistently asked to meet with snowmobile enthusiasts from this Forum, emailed Officers of WSSA and SAWS to ask to meet to discuss issues. No response.

WMC has secured a meeting place offer by a person from within the snowmobile industry who will host a meeting. At this time, the "single-sided approach" is the situation on the snowmobile side, however WMC has diligently worked to include all sides in the discussion, debate, and proposed meeting. It is time for snowmobile interests and Organizations to step up as citizens and meet with other citizens with other Forest uses and discuss, debate, collaborate rather than the boilerplate "single-sided approach."

Thanks for discussion.

deepdiver said:

As far as I am concerned your IP should be banned

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Amen!!

"Backcountry snow sliders are about six million strong?"

2009 United States Snowmobile RegistrationsTotal 1,652,642



Article today at Wildsnow:

http://www.wildsnow.com/3474/backcountry-skiing-numbers/

http://www.snowsports.org/

(quote)
Rumors of Our Demise Were Exagerated

SIA released their annual snowsports participation study. Some tidbits to make you laugh or cry:

... Snow sports participation increased by more than than a 1.5 million people during the2008/09 season. That includes 573,000 alpine skiers, 309,000 Nordic skiers, and 262,000 snowboarders...

... about 20% of skiers are going backcountry one way or another... U.S. snow sports participation has reached 30,000,000, close to 10% of the total population. I’m assuming SIA is talking snowboarders and skiers in that number (don’t know about snowshoes)...we backcountry snow sliders are about six million strong?...


...“The recreational transport category suffered a double-digit category decline in 2009. Wholesale sales were $27.33 billion in 2009, down from $31.48 billion in 2008 – a decline of 13.2%. As recently as 2007, the recreational transport category was at $37.47 billion. The line items in this category include motorcycles, jet skis, recreational vehicles, snowmobiles, bicycles, and pleasure boats & motors.”

(end quote)

Statistics from ISMA:

http://www.snowmobile.org/stats_registrations_us.asp

2009 United States Snowmobile Registrations

State # Registered Snowmobiles
Alaska 55,249
California 22,930
Colorado 33,367
Idaho 52,259
Illinois 39,500
Indiana 9,373
Iowa 28,400
Maine 98,472
Massachusetts 16,136
Michigan 346,315
Minnesota 252,003
Montana 39,531
Nebraska 2,100
New Hampshire 60,000
New York 136,471
North Dakota 15,822
Ohio 17,300
Oregon 17,392
Pennsylvania 40,066
South Dakota 12,231
Utah 28,768
Vermont 36,400
Washington 35,150
Wisconsin 219,907
Wyoming 37,500
Total 1,652,642

and they all want to ski in the Teanaway too.... LMAO!!

ROFL, this is priceless!!

You are resorting to quoting a blogger on a ski site who is getting his stats from a skiing public relations site.

Does anyone besides me have to pick themselves up off the floor from laughing so hard??
This is a sign of desperation on your part to try and show that you are bigger, stronger and more apt to win because there are more of you than snowmobilers. I had that same argument with a kid on the playground in 5th grade, but it was because one of us had more marbles.

I'm not even going to go into breaking down his numbers, any person who looks at your links can see that by the graph "your trusted source of information" shows, SnoPark Back Country Skiers like yourself equal 6.2% or 1.86 million of the 30 million "your trusted source of information" shows, not the 6 million that you boast.



From their front page of SIA website
______________________________________________________________________________


SnowSports Industries America is focused on the growth and development of the snow sports market through trade shows, events, research, consumer outreach and public relations.
______________________________________________________________________________


Your lame attempts at justifying your position with endless rhetoric, false statements and info, as well as misrepresentation of the facts are becoming tedious at best.
You Sir, are giving your sport and a lot of good people who love it, a bad name. I'm so glad that most snowmobilers can see thru the transparency of people like you and still peacefully co-exist with back country skiiers like we have for years

ALWAYS REMEMBER........
The next time you go skiing into the back country, as you pull into that nicely plowed snopark................. it was paid for by snowmobilers!!!!

rmk2112 said:

Your lame attempts at justifying your position with endless rhetoric, false statements and info are becoming tedious at best.

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That is bothering me as well. It is VERY frustrating when people stop being honest when trying to prove their point.

rmk2112 said:

ROFL, this is priceless!!

You are resorting to quoting a blogger on a ski site who is getting his stats from a skiing public relations site.


Does anyone besides me have to pick themselves up off the floor from laughing so hard??
This is a sign of desperation on your part to try and show that you are bigger, stronger and more apt to win because there are more of you than snowmobilers. I had that same argument with a kid on the playground in 5th grade, but it was because one of us had more marbles.

I'm not even going to go into breaking down his numbers, any person who looks at your links can see that by the graph "your trusted source of information" shows, SnoPark Back Country Skiers like yourself equal 6.2% or 1.86 million, not the 6 million that you boast.
You Sir, are giving your sport and a lot of good people who love it, a bad name. I'm so glad that most snowmobilers can see thru the transparency of people like you and still peacefully co-exist with back country skiiers like we have for years

From their front page of SIA website
______________________________________________________________________________

SnowSports Industries America is focused on the growth and development of the snow sports market through trade shows, events, research, consumer outreach and public relations.
______________________________________________________________________________


Your lame attempts at justifying your position with endless rhetoric, false statements and info are becoming tedious at best.


ALWAYS REMEMBER........
The next time you go skiing into the back country, as you pull into that nicely plowed snopark................. it was paid for by snowmobilers!!!!

Click to expand...

That blogger rides a late-model Yamaha snowmobile.

You sound upset. Just having a discussion, why are you folks so touchy?

That post quoted an article, and I compared it to statistics from a snowmobile industry source. Of course I am arguing my point, as are you.

I cannot verify anyone's statistics. However I do sincerely believe that non-motorized users of the winter Forest greatly outnumber motorized users. I also believe that the division of the Forest recreational resource is not balanced. I believe what I say that snowmobile riders would help themselves to consider the (greater numbers!) other winter Forest users.

There seems to be a theme here that anyone who opposes unregulated snowmobile use is all of those names and labels used. Also, it does appear that mr RMK2112 and others would like to discover personal identities of WMC and the WMC Executive for....what reason? Anything to do, for example, with the harassment of other previous posters, is there a need to use threatening language sweeter by having a name and address?

ruffryder, it does not appear that you wish any discussion except that which supports your world view and agenda exactly.

WMC is here solely to try to organize a dialogue and a meeting. I have never personally encountered a snowmobile rider who was anything but friendly and good folks, so it has been my hope to connect with that.

When the WWA Petition became a topic, WMC thought that was a topic to open a dialog. Aside from that, it had appeared, as it does now, that a dialog here has reached the end of usefulness.

Thank you all very much for having a discussion. All the best.

WMC said:

That blogger rides a late-model Yamaha snowmobile.

You sound upset. Just having a discussion, why are you folks so touchy?

That post quoted an article, and I compared it to statistics from a snowmobile industry source. Of course I am arguing my point, as are you.

I cannot verify anyone's statistics. However I do sincerely believe that non-motorized users of the winter Forest greatly outnumber motorized users. I also believe that the division of the Forest recreational resource is not balanced. I believe what I say that snowmobile riders would help themselves to consider the (greater numbers!) other winter Forest users.

There seems to be a theme here that anyone who opposes unregulated snowmobile use is all of those names and labels used. Also, it does appear that mr RMK2112 and others would like to discover personal identities of WMC and the WMC Executive for....what reason? Anything to do, for example, with the harassment of other previous posters, is there a need to use threatening language sweeter by having a name and address?

ruffryder, it does not appear that you wish any discussion except that which supports your world view and agenda exactly.

WMC is here solely to try to organize a dialogue and a meeting. I have never personally encountered a snowmobile rider who was anything but friendly and good folks, so it has been my hope to connect with that.

When the WWA Petition became a topic, WMC thought that was a topic to open a dialog. Aside from that, it had appeared, as it does now, that a dialog here has reached the end of usefulness.

Thank you all very much for having a discussion. All the best.

Click to expand...

Oh, I'm sorry...did you say something?
I've been too busy trying to wipe the tears from my eyes due to hysterical laughing fit a few minutes ago

WMC said:

You sound upset. Just having a discussion, why are you folks so touchy?

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Natural response to someone continually using erroneous information and making misleading statements. Only natural..

WMC said:

I cannot verify anyone's statistics. However I do sincerely believe that non-motorized users of the winter Forest greatly outnumber motorized users.

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Well, as long as it is a belief, I guess that is close enough to fact then. Here is an idea, instead of stating all you so called "beliefs" why don't we have a factual discussion instead? Is that too much to ask?

There is a big problem with a group asking for discussion and compromise when said group is willing to grab and use any and all numbers and figures that align with their personal beliefs.

WMC said:

ruffryder, it does not appear that you wish any discussion except that which supports your world view and agenda exactly.

Click to expand...

yep, honesty, sincerity, I guess my world view and agenda are not shared with the WMC.

WMC said:

Aside from that, it had appeared,m as it does now, that a dialog here has reached the end of usefulness.

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It was as userful as you were truthful. Honesty pays big dividends with most people, as it is the core of most peoples belief systems. Something to think about the next time you want to "engage" someone with nonfactual and misleading statements.

WMC said:

That blogger rides a late-model Yamaha snowmobile.

You sound upset. Just having a discussion, why are you folks so touchy?

That post quoted an article, and I compared it to statistics from a snowmobile industry source. Of course I am arguing my point, as are you.

I cannot verify anyone's statistics. However I do sincerely believe that non-motorized users of the winter Forest greatly outnumber motorized users. I also believe that the division of the Forest recreational resource is not balanced. I believe what I say that snowmobile riders would help themselves to consider the (greater numbers!) other winter Forest users.

There seems to be a theme here that anyone who opposes unregulated snowmobile use is all of those names and labels used. Also, it does appear that mr RMK2112 and others would like to discover personal identities of WMC and the WMC Executive for....what reason? Anything to do, for example, with the harassment of other previous posters, is there a need to use threatening language sweeter by having a name and address?

ruffryder, it does not appear that you wish any discussion except that which supports your world view and agenda exactly.

WMC is here solely to try to organize a dialogue and a meeting. I have never personally encountered a snowmobile rider who was anything but friendly and good folks, so it has been my hope to connect with that.

When the WWA Petition became a topic, WMC thought that was a topic to open a dialog. Aside from that, it had appeared, as it does now, that a dialog here has reached the end of usefulness.

Thank you all very much for having a discussion. All the best.

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You say why are we so touchy I don't know maybe it is YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE MORE OF ARE RIDDING AREA AWAY.
PS that will make any snowmobiler more than just TOUCHY:hurt:

clutch man said:

You say why are we so touchy I don't know maybe it is YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE MORE OF ARE RIDDING AREA AWAY.
PS that will make any snowmobiler more than just TOUCHY:hurt:

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That, sir, is a very good point. Understood.

On the other side of the question, folks are touchy as well about losing their share of the winter Forest. Skiers, snowshoers, winter Forest users, have watched continual expansion of snowmobile riding onto new terrain as the technology has advanced.

As a result, we want some new accessible areas without snowmobiles, but not a general snowmobile ban. We have asked to collaborate as has been done elsewhere. Again, instead of both sides just going at it for all-or-nothing, we should try to get together, see what could be agreed. In this discussion there has been agreement and even action by snowmobile riders to solve the snowmobile Wilderness trespass problem along the Teanaway crest. Bravo!

Thank you.

WMC said:

That, sir, is a very good point. Understood.

On the other side of the question, folks are touchy as well about losing their share of the winter Forest. Skiers, snowshoers, winter Forest users, have watched continual expansion of snowmobile riding onto new terrain as the technology has advanced.

As a result, we want some new accessible areas without snowmobiles, but not a general snowmobile ban. We have asked to collaborate as has been done elsewhere. Again, instead of both sides just going at it for all-or-nothing, we should try to get together, see what could be agreed. In this discussion there has been agreement and even action by snowmobile riders to solve the snowmobile Wilderness trespass problem along the Teanaway crest. Bravo!



Thank you.

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Well Rondondee...touchy..thats because people are tired of your BS sir(spelled cur in your case)

Why would anybody want to have a meeting with you. You are an arrogant little piss ant. I would not give you the sweat off my test tickles, let alone the time of day. You dont and will not get squat as you continue to BS your way through your own greedy personal agenda. Go somewhere else and whine and go play with yourself...I really ment play by yourself..opps. You want something closer than the wilderness because you are too damn lazy or out of shape to get there. You are just lucky that there are so many people here that are being polite with you. YOU wasted my patients when you were Rondondee and have just gotten worse. I am surprised that you havnt PMed threats to anybody like Rondondee. I take a crap and I think of you is how bad it has become.

However Cur, if you are feelling pressure . Pressure is a word that is misused in our vocabulary. When you start thinking of pressure, it's because youve started to think of failure.

Enjoy your weekend Rondondee..Ill think of you again tommorrow morning..regular like clock work!

rmk2112 said:

ROFL, this is priceless!!


______________________________________________________________________________


WMC Your lame attempts at justifying your position with endless rhetoric, false statements and info, as well as misrepresentation of the facts are becoming tedious at best.
You Sir, are giving your sport and a lot of good people who love it, a bad name. I'm so glad that most snowmobilers can see thru the transparency of people like you and still peacefully co-exist with back country skiiers like we have for years

ALWAYS REMEMBER........
The next time you go skiing into the back country, as you pull into that nicely plowed snopark................. it was paid for by snowmobilers!!!!

Click to expand...

You are pretty darn nice to this WMC/Rondondee POS. He doesnt deserve to be treated with anything that is remotely humanitarian. What he deserves is for his parents to be asshamed of how poor of a job they did in raising this toad.

WMC said:

That, sir, is a very good point. Understood.

On the other side of the question, folks are touchy as well about losing their share of the winter Forest. Skiers, snowshoers, winter Forest users, have watched continual expansion of snowmobile riding onto new terrain as the technology has advanced.

As a result, we want some new accessible areas without snowmobiles, but not a general snowmobile ban. We have asked to collaborate as has been done elsewhere. Again, instead of both sides just going at it for all-or-nothing, we should try to get together, see what could be agreed. In this discussion there has been agreement and even action by snowmobile riders to solve the snowmobile Wilderness trespass problem along the Teanaway crest. Bravo!

Thank you.

Click to expand...

Just how in the hell are they losing area's when now the government has been pushing for more wilderness and getting it. the non-motor winter users are gaining not losing.

Jeezus...I leave for a week back east and the place goes crazy....I haven't read in detail the posts from this last week yet, but this is about an observation I had on my return trip.

As we are approaching Seattle, we fly in over the cascades just north of stewart and carve south just west of north bend. In the view from the window we could see bachelor, hood, adams, st. helens and rainier and the whole of the riding area that's being discussed. From the air at the 15k-20k feet, the area that we ride is SUPER small in comparison to the areas that we can't ride, both for terrain as well as legal access. The sad thing is that we have been debating over such a small area that the arguement get's lost in all the area that is completely untouched and off limits.

With that said, wilderness has been established by congress and certainly won't get reversed. But I think every other part needs to be looked at to be opened up to multiple use or individual purpose use for all groups. Additionally, the areas off limits to snowmobiling should be counted in the whole of the recreational options available to all citizens. Access to the wilderness for those non-motorized users needs to be looked at and addressed. We don't need to continue the debate over such a small area available to sledders, but expand it to access to all the EXISTING non-motorized available area for skiers etc.

WMC and others on TAY have already conceded that access to these areas would satisfy their position and in turn would support the arguement opposing WWA for closure to sleds in other areas.

As they say, liars figure and figures lie, let's move away from those points for a bit and look hard at supporting better access for the non-motorized users to the existing restricted areas and in turn give WMC the opportunity to stand up to his word and support our opposition to WWA.

And WMC, the WWA petition simply won't be successful. They are using skewed data and have a weak arguement and it will show itself in the long haul. Land is already managed by established wilderness/non-motorized and other restricted areas for half the forest and a small amount of actual usable terrain reduces the area even more to motorized users.

So WMC, where are the maps you are "working" on, and sledders that know the area in additon to newtrout speak up I need to chat with you.