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Old 04-21-2019, 08:44 PM
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Default 141 Pro RMK

This project started with ideas that came from a couple swap meets and the bounty I returned home with. The engine was never intended to be for this sled but when I purchased this sled the original plan for this engine was changed. I purchased a 2013 800 Pro Rmk and thought about converting this to a true entry level lower Hp Pro Rmk that will actually be less than 400 Lbs. The 800 was drained of gas and it weighed in @ 440.6 Lbs with the oil tank half full. Other considerations for this sled are the non stock front bumper, a home made steel tube for the rear bumper, and upgraded walker evans clicker front shocks. This was a ways from the dry weight I remember being 416 pounds even when considering the oil and water weight.


After the new custom single cylinder engine, the shortened skid, a new aluminum rear bumper tube, lower handlebars, and hand gaurds were installed, and the oil tank was filled my first finished weight came in at 369.3 pounds. This was with no fuel and the gauge and wiring was also still not installed. A reduction of 71 pounds. I am also planning on shortening the tunnel so that may also take off some additional weight.

I was able to get this on the snow out west a few weeks ago and started tuning for the pipe and clutching but had some set backs that did not allow me to finish, so I can not yet say this project is a success. I have also realized that my tuning skills are no where near where I would like them to be as this has turned out to be more of a clean sheet of paper that needs to be colored in by the tuner, and although I have a complete box of crayons, sometimes picking the right color is not as easy as one would think it is. I am currently working thru some rework on those issues and will share those in future posts. Some of the rework may affect the ultimate finish weight also. I will be sharing the engine project first and then the engine install.

Last edited by Bushwacker1; 04-21-2019 at 08:59 PM. Reason: pictures
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:37 PM
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This was what I came home with from a swap meet. I purchased it as spare parts for my sons 1991 Indy Starlite. 250cc air cooled this engine was installed in sleds without an expansion chamber, a 30mm carb, and only a muffler, so that limited the power output. This basic engine also shares parts with the Polaris ATV. I found some info where someone replaced the cylinder with an indy trail fan cooled cylinder. Did some more research and found that the bore and stroke were the same, and the indy trail had much larger ports and ran a larger carb. Some modifications to the cooling fins would be needed to wrap the starlites tin around it but that would have been a good upgrade. If a tuned pipe were made the upgrade would be even better.

Went to Hay Days last fall and found a used Fuji Indy 500 cylinder and head. Was able to get it for 10 bucks, and when I got it home I found that the bore and stroke were also the same and the bolt pattern on the base were the same except that one hole would need to be drilled as the Fuji uses one common stud between the two cylinders on the carb side. I took the band saw and cut it in half. It bolted up and the piston and ports all were where they should be. The 500 has the water pump bolted on to the cylinder so I used the mag side and thought it should not be too hard to get that water pump to spin so I prepped the cylinder for welding up the water jacket. The 500 puts out around 80 hp so I am hoping to get around 40 with an expansion chamber and a larger carb. The 250 four wheelers when modified were also in this power range. As this is HP in the same range as a 340 my plan was to gear this sled down for a top speed of around 50 Mph so it will be able to spin a 141 cobra 1.6" lug track.

Cut the cylinder head in half and prepped that for welding up the water jacket.

Cylinder head welded

Cylinder welded

Last edited by Bushwacker1; 04-21-2019 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Pictures
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:51 AM
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:10 AM
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Bolted the water pump on and found that the pulleys did not line up. The flywheel position is different between the starlite engine and the 500 twin. The bottom pulley bolt pattern was the same but the locating bore did not fit the flywheel either.



Decided to make up a spacer and coolant extension to offset the water pump.





Made up a spacer to support the water pump.



Ordered up some longer bolts from Mcmaster Carr and installed the water pump.



Made up an adapter for the bottom pulley that positioned the pulley in line with the top pulley and also centered it on the flywheel so it runs true.





Installed water pump and pulleys. All lined up now.



I installed the belt and found it to be very tight with next to no adjustment. It just seemed to short. Did some measuring and found that the starlite engine has the crank positioned lower in the cases than the twin 500, yet the bore and stroke are the same and the piston is coming to full top dead center as it should. Did some more checking and found that the starlite engine has a longer rod than the 500 twin. With all the issues with the newer 800 engines, and the after market talking about the advantages of a longer rod in those engines, I will consider this a plus for this engine, and hope it provides some of the benefit of improved rod angle. Went to my local parts store and sourced a belt that was a little bit longer.

Started lay out for an adapter to mount a recoil. The fan cooled one did not have enough clearance for the water pump and belt, and would need to cut up to make it work. Then a belt cover would need to be attached. I was going to use the 500 twin recoil but found that due to the longer rod, the top pulley on the water pump would hit on the top of the recoil cover. A spacer would also be needed as the 500 recoil was too shallow. I found that a Polaris ultra recoil had the correct depth with a 500 twin cup installed on the flywheel, but would require a cut out for the belt pathway. I considered using a recoil and belt cover from an indy storm as the recoil has bosses on it for the cover, but found them to be very hard to source, and was unsure if it would have the needed offset depth. I also looked at 650/ RXL recoils and covers but offset was incorrect, and mounting the belt cover would also require me to provide brackets to mount it. I also wanted to mount the ignition coil on the belt cover, so I decided that I would make my own belt cover and the mounts needed to support it. Another thing I found was that the bolt pattern on the starlite engine for the adapter plate was not even close to being designed on a bolt circle pattern. It would have been much easier if Polaris would have just used a bolt circle off the crank centerline but I found no such thing even close to a bolt circle that lined up with anything.



Ultra recoil with needed depth to attach to adapter plate.



Modified Ultra recoil installed.



Made up some mounts that will support the new belt cover and attached them to the adapter plate. These proved to be under designed in the end as vibration cracked my adapter plate and halted my tuning when I was out west. A thicker adapter plate, a different recoil, and belt cover is currently in process of being retrofitted. More to come on that in future posts.



Fabricating the first belt cover.



Completed belt cover ready for paint. Note the 500 recoil on the floor. (I cut the top off and considered having it welded back on to get the clearance needed for the top water pump pulley.)


Last edited by Bushwacker1; 04-22-2019 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Text corrections
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:44 PM
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Put the oil line on and found it will not clear the crank case when the cylinder is installed. As I will be using a carb with an oil line on it this hole was plugged so the cylinder could be installed. I found a set of rack carbs that were used on 2001 to 2006 indy 500 Fuji engines. These are 38 mm the same as the round slides that these engines came with up till 2001. I wanted to use a flat slide to improve the bottom end performance and finding a carb that is calibrated to the engine this cylinder came from seemed to be good starting point. This carb uses a different carb boot. I purchased one and found that the bolt span was changed and would not fit. Found that there are three bolt spans used on the Fuji 500 engines. One for the round slides, one for the fuel injected sleds, and one for the flat slide carbs. More research and I was able to find a carb boot for a Ski doo Boysen Rad valve that fits this carb. Made up an aluminum spigot adapter to fit the boot and the bolt span on my cylinder. The carb rack was separated and the fuel port needed to be drilled and tapped on the right side. The left side was tapped and plugged and a hose barb with threads was made for the right side. These rack carbs also came with a two into one choke cable. I was able to pull it apart and eliminate one of the cables. Throttle cable also presented a problem as the round slide cable would not work with the rack style carb. I had one from a 600 edge that fit the carb but the oil pump cable was too long when attached to the oil pump. I ended up taking apart three different assemblies to build one that had all the correct cables and length. Had to use an old style round transition type for the reassemble as the newest type (flat cable to cable transition box) are impossible to take apart and reuse. Still would like to find one off the shelf that fits in case this one breaks.



Pulled out the 800 engine. This weighed 95.1 lbs with the exhaust manifold.



250 cc engine weighed 48.5 Lbs as shown.



Started on motor mounts. I wanted to use the stock mounts. Wanted to move the mag side ones inboard but there was not much room due to the narrow engine. Also the mounts could not be relocated without making some type of adapter to deal with the bulk head differences where they would be relocated to. Found that an under slung type would allow them to be used in the stock position and still be able to mount the engine low in the bulk head. I thought a simple drop arm would work well, just make up two equal length drops and weld to the cross tube. After some measuring I found that none of the mounts are located at the same elevation from the bottom of the bulkhead and the location front to back do not match either. This required the drop brackets to all be different lengths and the cross tubes had to be indexed for alignment before welding them to keep things straight and level. The angle brackets will be used to attach a flat motor plate. There will also need to be some spacers to get the plate to reach the bottom of the engine.





Engine plate. To keep the engine as low as possible notches were cut in the plate. Engine needs to be pushed outboard to get clutches to line up. Removed a small amount of material from the side of the bulkhead to be sure the motor plate does not rub.



Engine installed. Thanks to TRS for info on clutch alignment. I used his and Patricks info from that thread to get my engine lined up. Polaris alignment tool was no where close and if I had went with that as my final word I would have needed to raise the engine a few more inches to get the drive clutch outboard enough.



This picture also shows the TKI belt drive installed. I had one for a Pro but the gear ratio was to tall. I spoke to Tom at TKI and he was able to send me a larger bottom sprocket and a smaller top sprocket. 66/ 24. This gives me a 2.75 ratio. After my testing I believe that I may need to get this ratio closer to 3.0 to 1. Did some calculations on this and my current top speed with 8 tooth drivers will be around 66 MPH if my engine runs at 8000 rpm. Changing to 7 tooth drivers will get this down to 58 MPH. I still do not know where this engine will make its power but it should be between 7800 and 8000. I was hoping for a top speed around 50 MPH. I spoke to Tom again but we are out of off the shelf items from him. I am currently working on the possibility of getting some custom sprockets made to improve my gearing closer to 3 to 1.



This picture shows the custom air box with a tempa flow installed. (tempa flow not installed yet) I was very happy how it turned out and was able to find some flexible 4" hose and a downspout fitting that plumbed it to the hood plenum. While testing I found that the air box noise was so loud I could not hear the exhaust pipe. This will be another follow up item to try to install a stock air box from a Pro Ride Indy 550

Last edited by Bushwacker1; 04-22-2019 at 10:55 PM. Reason: corrections
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:49 AM
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Pictures would help me.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
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Pictures would help me.
I am confused. I have attached around 30 pictures to this. Am I the only one who can see them or are you wanting to see more of one area.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwacker1 View Post
I am confused. I have attached around 30 pictures to this. Am I the only one who can see them or are you wanting to see more of one area.
I can see them, for what it's worth.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:31 PM
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Here are a few pictures of the air box with the tempa flow installed. Also made up a bracket for the fuel pump and installed. On the first test ride the sled seemed to be running out of fuel. With the fuel pump mounted here I believe the impulse line was too long at around 12 inches. I shortened it up an inch or so and rerouted the fuel line so it would gravity feed to the pump. The issue seemed to go away during the rest of my testing. Reading the Aaen carb tuning book it talks about this problem and he notes that 12" is where problems may surface. Relocating the fuel pump to shorten the line is also on my follow up list of things to do.



Another picture of the belt drive installed.





Custom built pipe. I took the sled to Aaen performance and they were able to build a custom pipe for this engine from one of his blanks. Not sure what the original application was but he said this should run around 7800 to 8000 Rpm in the 40 Hp range. He has offered pipes for this bore and stroke for the 250 cc four wheelers with these results. Olav was most helpful to this project as I would have not been able to get this done in the few days they had the sled. when I first installed the engine I was worried when I saw that the exhaust port was directly in line with the steering post but they were able to offset around it. There are over 20 welds in the fitment of this pipe and it turned out great. This pipe has an internal stinger that acts as a silencer so a large external can was not required. The sled sounds like a dirt bike. It is a little louder than I am used too compared to a stock sled, and we may need to increase the size of that silencer if it turns out to be too loud. I will say that with the open style air box the intake noise was so loud that I could not hear the exhaust after it built Rpm so once I get the air box noise addressed I will need to make a decision on if the pipe needs to be quitter. I also made a plate for the exit port that seals the pipe to the rubber grommet so snow will not back up into the belly pan.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:23 PM
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Old 04-25-2019, 07:20 PM
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Old 05-12-2019, 07:50 PM
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