Diesel vs. Gasoline: COST comparison.

Looking for some good material that cost compares a Diesel truck to a Gas truck over the lifetime of ownership.




On average, over time, I think we can look at Diesel fuel at $4.00 a gallon.
Right now its a SMOKING deal, but there is no chance of that lasting.



On average, over time, I think we can look at Gasoline at around $3.50 a gallon.
Again, right now, its a great deal that likely won't last a whole lot longer.



So the first major hit is the cost difference between the Gas Engine and the Turbo Diesel.
Cost comparison for a brand new F250.
6.7L 4 Valve Power Stroke® V8 Diesel Engine + $8,480
(I know that is MSRP and NONE of us are stupid enough to pay that, so lets say real world, upcharge of $7,000)

And for comparison sake, we will keep this new truck for TEN YEARS before we sell it and buy again.

This is an interesting article that looks at Diesel vs. Gas from a FLEET perspective. Maybe not wholly applicable to what we are doing, but it lends some real world insight that I think is probably of value in this discussion



http://www.government-fleet.com/art...nvestment-only-fleet-managers-know-about.aspx

Miles Per Gallon:
Although diesel engines enjoy a sizeable miles per gallon (mpg) advantage over gasoline engines in automobiles, truck engines are a different story. The actual advantage enjoyed by diesel engines in light and medium trucks is less than 2 mpg. In government fleets where daily travel distances are limited, idling is an unfortunate reality, and load requirements can be met equally well with gasoline or diesel engines with little or no impact on mpg; diesel fuel’s higher cost per gallon actually negates its slight advantage in mpg.

Maintenance Costs:
Non-fleet “experts” tout that rigid construction and the lack of spark ignition make diesel engines cheaper to maintain than gasoline engines. Fleet managers and maintenance personnel know better. Maintaining diesel engines is made more costly than gasoline engine maintenance by routine maintenance costs and frequency, higher diesel engine hard parts cost (starters, alternators, water pumps, batteries, etc.), selective catalytic reduction (SCR) emission system maintenance and repair, turbocharger maintenance, and other factors not present in gasoline engines. Although no hard data exists, some fleet managers say that diesel vehicles average 2.5 to 4.5 more downtime days per year. This is primarily due to either the lack of parts availability or to a shortage of qualified technicians, either at the dealership or fleet level.

Longevity:
Diesel engines last longer. That’s certainly true for
over-the-road semi tractors that typically travel 80,000 to 100,000 miles per year. These vehicles are typically expected to operate for half a million miles or more before trade-in or sale. In the past 15 years, at least nine light- and medium-duty diesel iterations have been introduced to the marketplace by Ford, GM, and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA). Engine families have been rendered obsolete either due to emission control regulations or, in some cases, their own inherent mechanical shortcomings. Few engines in the light/medium class have been around long enough and in great enough numbers to support the longevity claim.
And for government fleets, who really cares about longevity? Government fleets seldom if ever retain a Class 3-6 vehicle longer than eight or 10 years, or for more than 125,000 miles. Further, few governments apply a longer life expectancy to light- and medium-duty diesel vehicles than they apply to gasoline vehicles of similar size. Diesel vehicle longevity is a non-factor in government fleets as both gasoline and diesel vehicles are typically replaced on identical life cycles.

Torque/Horsepower:
The belief that diesel vehicles pull better is partially true. Gasoline engines usually have the edge in horsepower, while diesels typically offer higher torque. But in a government fleet application, these attributes are similar in significance to the longevity claim because they don’t matter either. The short-term torque required for government fleet applications, even in severe duty, can be met equally well by a gasoline or diesel engine; gasoline is simply less expensive to purchase and maintain.

Acquisition Cost:
This is an often overlooked aspect in the government fleet acquisition dialogue because by the time the narrative extends to the acquisition cost, the operating department has successfully made its case for diesel, and the gasoline alternative is off the table. Fifteen years ago, the government premium paid for the diesel option ranged from $2,200 to $3,000. Today, that premium has risen to about $8,000. How can a department quantify a benefit large enough to justify paying that premium for a diesel engine when an equally capable vehicle can be purchased for less?

Resale Values:
Diesel vehicles have higher resale values. The market has realized the value of diesel light and medium trucks, and auction proceed statistics clearly reflect this advantage.

Fleet managers should always consider resale value when purchasing vehicles, but they should be cautious when evaluating the benefit of this advantage. It’s not enough just to target recovering the original acquisition premium at the auction eight to 10 years in the future. Fleet managers who recognize the time value of money understand the implications and responsibility for recovering this premium in real-time dollars. At 3%, in order to recover a $7,800 diesel premium paid originally, fleets and finance departments recognize the premium actually represents more than $9,500 in future value, an auction premium target that’s non-existent when selling gasoline-*powered trucks.

What the Studies Say

A widely quoted 2013 study comparing the total cost of ownership (TCO) between gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles conducted by the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute concludes that owners of diesel vehicles enjoy a cost advantage over owners of gasoline vehicles. However, the study was heavily slanted toward diesel automobiles from Volkswagen and Mercedes and only covered the first three to five years of ownership, when diesel resale values enjoy a decidedly higher advantage. The study’s conclusions for trucks include the following:

“Vehicles in the medium-size pickup segment have a mixed picture of TCO in the three-year timeframe. The Chevrolet Silverado 2500 saves the owner $3,673 more than the owner of the gas-powered version of the vehicle and the GMC Sierra 2500 owner saves $2,720. The Dodge Ram diesel owner saves only $67 more than the owner of the gas-powered version. The F-250 diesel owner pays an estimated $1,395 more than the owner of the gas-powered version,” the study stated.

It should be noted that this study compared vehicle costs operated by *consumers rather than vehicles operated in commercial/*fleet related service.

Another well-known and often-quoted source of vehicle cost data is Vincentric. In a 2012 study comparing gasoline vs. diesel vehicles, the company found: “When all costs to own and operate a diesel were taken into account, the average cost of ownership for diesels was $1,203 more than their all-gasoline-powered counterparts, with results assuming an annual mileage of 15,000 over five years.”

These findings were largely unchanged in the company’s follow-on study in 2014.

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1501-gas-vs-diesel-past-present-and-future/

Fuel Economy: Diesel Still Leads, But Margin Narrows

Conventional wisdom was that diesel was the only way to deliver significant fuel economy improvements in trucks. However, the growing emergence of direct-injected and turbocharged gasoline engines have made the fuel economy difference between gas and diesel engines much smaller than before. Seredynski said that regardless of fuel, the end goal is the same: maximum power from the minimum amount of fuel.
Back in the '90s and early 2000s, the difference was often more than 30 percent. At that time, some of the gasoline engines in the truck market were just starting to transition over to port fuel injection, and almost all truck engines were still two-valve. Today, advancements on gasoline engines, such as direct-injection, cylinder deactivation, variable valve timing, and turbocharging, have given powertrain engineers a vastly broader toolkit from which to build gasoline engines that are both economical and powerful.

The Ram 1500 EcoDiesel is the current fullsize pickup mileage champ at 20/28 mpg in EPA testing, but Ford's new 2.7L EcoBoost V-6 is will likely not be far behind. Another enabling technology that has increased economy on both gas and diesel engines are transmissions with much higher gear counts, with six speeds now considered the bare minimum, just as eight-speeds and higher are starting to become the norm.


Refinement: Gas, But Barely
Diesel engines have evolved tremendously over the last 20 years in almost every area, but perhaps the most impressive strides have been made in the area of noise, vibration and harshness, otherwise known as NVH. In the '80s and '90s, it was not uncommon to have to turn your engine off in the drive-through so the cashier could hear your order. On some of today's trucks, the engine type is almost imperceptible from the driver seat. The biggest enabler of this is vastly more sophisticated injection technology, which has made diesels nearly the peer of their gasoline counterparts.

In the case of direct fuel injection, the technology has had a different effect on gasoline and diesel engines. While many gasoline direct-injection engines have a characteristic injector "tick," the technology has enabled diesel combustion events to get much quieter, thanks to the use of pilot injection and multiple injection pulses per combustion event. This reduces the sudden combustion pressure spike that's the culprit in the familiar diesel clattering noise. The added noise of the direct injectors is only noticeable from the inherently quieter operation of gasoline engines. "It's interesting that common rail direct injection for diesel is used to move toward lower noise and lower emissions, to close these gaps a diesel has compared to gasoline, while direct injection for gasoline is used to close the gap a gasoline engine has versus diesel fuel economy," said Gary Arvan, General Motors' program manager and chief engineer for Duramax Diesel Engines.

For some buyers, the characteristic diesel sound is actually a positive attribute. "There is a sector of the market that wants a diesel sound, usually heavy-duty truck customers. But the light-duty truck, SUV, and car customers want refinement, especially in the North American market, because the customers are more accustomed to the behavior of gasoline engines," said Luis Cattani, chief engineer for diesel programs at Chrysler.
Although he concedes the refinement gap between diesel and gas engines hasn't disappeared altogether, Arvan said it's no longer a deal-breaker for informed buyers. "I think this concern is gone for those who are familiar with modern diesels. Diesel and gas [engines] are not yet on par for noise, and may never be, but they are close enough when you apply the best technologies to engine and vehicle. With proper technologies applied, I don't think NVH is a deterrent to diesel purchase."


Power/Torque: Decisively Diesel
In the original 2002 feature, the "power" verdict was ruled a split decision, with gasoline engines given the nod for the generally higher peak horsepower output, but diesels given the advantage for their typically higher torque figures. Today, we can fairly decisively rule in diesel's favor in the power argument, at least within the context of trucks. Yes, gasoline engines of similar displacement still have an advantage in peak power, but the gap has narrowed from 50-plus horsepower to around 20 or 30.
However, the torque advantage of diesels to their gasoline counterparts has exploded from about 80 to 100 lb-ft to about 300 to 400 lb-ft or more. What do you want when you're towing and hauling? Torque, and diesels have more of it than ever. All of the manufacturers were unanimous in their choice for diesel for frequent towing or hauling of heavy loads. It's no coincidence that more than 60 percent of HD pickups are sold with diesels.


Cost: Pay Now, Save Later - Tie
The one area where diesels have not significantly improved relative to their gasoline-powered peers is in the area of initial cost. For HD models, the diesel engine option still typically runs in the $8,000 range, compared to between $1,000 to 2,000 for the premium gasoline engine option.

Ram touts the value equation of the EcoDiesel in the Ram 1500 relative to the Hemi at only $2,850, but when compared to the base Pentastar gas V-6, the premium is more than $4,000. Over the course of several years, diesels will pay for themselves in fuel savings, but be prepared to shell out for a significant up-front cost if you want to go diesel. Diesel fuel prices also vary wildly depending on the season, region, and even individual fuel retailer, sometimes going for less than regular gasoline and sometimes going for more than premium.

An additional wrinkle that's been added to the equation within the last few years is the addition of urea-based Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), required to meet NOx emissions requirements. The cost is only about $20 every few thousand miles, but it's still an operational cost you don't have to deal with on gasoline engines. Most of the sources we talked to for this story didn't see the additional requirement for DEF on modern diesels as being a major purchase deterrent, as the size of the tanks are generally designed so that the DEF refill intervals coincide with regular maintenance, such as oil changes. The wider availability of DEF now, compared to 2011, makes it easy to find and purchase it at most auto supply stores, service stations, and major retailers.

Downsizing and Turbos: A Trend Here to Stay
While it's not likely you'll see an homogenous charge compression ignition (HCCI) engine under the hood of your truck anytime soon, the trend toward smaller-displacement, more efficient engines is here to stay, and will continue into the foreseeable future. This trend is equally applicable to gas and diesel engines. Just as we're seeing the introduction of the 2.7L EcoBoost V-6 in addition to the 3.5L version, Mercedes-Benz is now offering a 2.1L I-4 diesel in addition to the standard 3.0L V-6 diesel in its Sprinter commercial van. Thanks to a seven-speed transmission with the 2.1L engine, the performance difference between the two powertrains is negligible.

While it's well-known that gasoline turbo engines' efficiency declines precipitously under load, for the vast majority of light truck buyers, where significant towing or hauling duties will be a periodic task, rather than a regular chore, the GDI turbo model offers the promise of power on-demand, but efficient operation at cruise and light load. With ever-increasing sophistication of engine management, fuel delivery and transmission technology, you can bet you're going to continue to see power figures get bigger, and displacements to get smaller for light truck engines. Although bigger-inch V-8s are still available as options on most fullsize trucks, fewer and fewer customers are buying them as more efficient, if less nostalgic, engines are offered as alternatives.

http://www.edmunds.com/diesel/before-buy.html

Size/Market Segment

With the advent of new technology, diesel engines are now available in all 50 states from numerous manufacturers. Diesel passenger cars and SUVs are offered by Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen, while diesel pickup trucks are available from Chevrolet/GMC, Ford and Ram. More brands are offering diesel power every day.

Price
Diesel engines are generally more expensive to manufacture than conventional gasoline engines because of the extra measure of durability required to withstand the stress of high-compression diesel combustion, technology such as turbochargers that improve performance and additional exhaust treatment needed to ensure clean air emissions. As a result, the purchase price of a diesel vehicle is generally higher than for its gasoline-powered counterpart.

Engine/Fuel Economy
In the past, diesel engines were thought to be noisy, smelly things suited only for industrial applications, but advances in technology have minimized these drawbacks. Much of the appeal of diesels comes from their fuel economy, which is typically better than that of their gasoline-powered equivalents. Sheer power can also be impressive, because lots of torque is available at low rpm, which makes diesel power preferred for towing. In general, diesels combine excellent low-speed tractability with fuel-efficient cruising.


Manual vs. Automatic Transmission
While diesels used to be considered as industrial-strength transportation best suited to crude manual transmissions, a wide range of transmission choices now make the diesel engine a friendlier device with which to live on a daily basis. Automatic transmissions for diesels now have a greater number of speeds to keep the engine operating at peak power and efficiency, while automated manual transmissions foster improved fuel efficiency without losing the convenience of an automatic clutch.

Operating Costs
The diesel combines the promise of low operating costs thanks to excellent fuel economy with a measure of added durability thanks to heavy-duty construction. The diesel delivers on both counts, but hidden costs can compromise the overall economics.

First, the excellent mpg of a diesel can be partially offset by the higher price of diesel fuel.

Second, the greater durability of diesel hardware can be offset by the costs of maintaining the emissions hardware, which might include a liquid after-treatment of the exhaust to reduce particulate emissions.

Finally, minimal running costs can be offset by a greater purchase price for the engine itself. In the end, the appeal of the diesel equation depends on use, and if you're after either extreme cruising range or pronounced towing capacity, the diesel could be for you.

Gas Versus Diesel: Who Wins the Great Debate?

Posted by on December 12, 2014 at 10:55 am

Gas and diesel-fueled engines both offer distinct advantages and drawbacks. In comparison with one another, it’s difficult to determine which is more advantageous in terms of personal or hotshot trucking.

Drivers must consider a wide variety of factors when deciding the type of truck they are going to purchase, as these ultimately affect which engine provides a higher return on investment. To best identify the type of engine or truck that best suits your own hotshot operation, you must determine which motor strikes the right balance between performance, budget and fuel efficiency.

However, each driver will likely have their own set of guidelines as to what they’re looking for. For instance, one driver may want a high-performance engine, another may be looking for strong fuel economy while sacrificing overall horsepower. Keeping that in mind, here are a handful of things to evaluate before deciding on which engine best fits your hotshot needs:

Upfront investment
Initial acquisition costs are often the first bridge to cross when it comes to running a hotshot operation or doing your own towing on the side. It’s important to know how steep the upfront cost of a gas or diesel truck may be. The average price of a diesel-powered vehicle is $5,000 more than a gas-powered version of the same model, Forbes said, citing research firm Vincentric LLC.
Winner- Gas

Back-end costs
Maintenance is another hidden cost that owners must make themselves aware of. Newer versions of diesel engines are designed to meet improved emissions standards, but the new technology also requires slightly more preservation on the back end.
Another important factor to keep in mind is that diesel engines are designed to last longer than gas-powered engines. While maintenance costs can cause a temporary headache, they may help avoid paying for a new truck some time down the road.

Winner- This could go either way, but we’re assuming you drive a lot of miles and having a truck that will last longer wins in our book-
this one goes to Diesel.

Fuel efficiency
While gas-powered engines are typically more than $5,000 cheaper than diesel-powered trucks, the latter has been found to be more efficient in terms of burning fuel. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, diesel engines are 30 to 35 percent more efficient than their gas-powered counterparts. By design, diesel engines operate with a combustion process that’s cleaner and burns less fuel than a traditional gas-powered engine, which is powered by a conventional spark ignition.
Winner- Diesel

Cost of fuel
According to the latest information provided by the U.S. Energy Information System, both diesel and gas prices have dropped 0.34 percent and 0.59 percent respectively in the past 12 months. The price gap between the two, however, remains largely distant. The average cost of gasoline in the U.S. as of December 8 was $2.68 per gallon, while diesel fuel prices remained more than $3.50. The stark contrast between the two prices follows a trend that’s been prevalent over the past decade, according to Steve Jansen, a truck services account executive at Donlen, a Northbrook, Ill.-based fleet management company.

In fact, diesel prices have averaged 14 percent more per gallon than unleaded in the past decade, Jansen told industry publication Work Truck Magazine. What’s more, regular unleaded gasoline is more widely available for drivers with gasoline engines. If drivers spend too much time looking for a place to fill up, their towing productivity may suffer as a result.
Winner- Gas

Towing strength
The size, horsepower and torque of an engine will ultimately determine which type can tow more weight. However, Jansen says diesel engines may provide more of an advantage for heavy-duty trailers.
“The diesel engine is a more suitable choice if towing capacity is critical to your operation,” he told Work Truck Magazine. “The relatively high-compression ratio necessary to ignite diesel fuel allows the diesel engine to generate all its torque and power at a lower RPM.”
Winner- Diesel

And the overall winner is… Diesel.
However, hotshot drivers interested in a class 3-4 truck and considering starting their own operation must first look at a number of factors and weigh the pros and cons based on what works best for them. The benefits and drawbacks of either engine may depend on an individual basis and driver needs.

I just keep flip flopping back and forth.
Trying to make a rational decision and not just the diesel just because it's what I want but might not need.

slash said:

If you work a 6.0 gas mtr like a DIESEL it's going to last 85k to 120k they just cant handle the stress .

Click to expand...

Whats you take on the opening comments about REPAIRS on a Diesel?

Reality check.

Probably drive 20K-25 a year

Pull a 8,000lb trailer 12-15 times a year, 3 hrs each time + any special trips.

Otherwise, this truck will be a daily driver frequently getting less than 20 miles a day on her.

Driving an F250 V10 right now.
55-60 MAX going up hill with the trailer, getting 6-7mpg in 4x4 on the highway with the trailer in the snow, 10-11mpg normal driving.

The question for me comes down to this.
A new 2017 F250 TD ($70,000) or a new 2016 F150 EcoBoost Gasser. ($61,700)