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The Reason Our Axys Relays Are Failing

Perk

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We had one fail in our group 2 weeks ago so I took it home and did some surgery on it to see why it was failing. The first test I performed was to measure the resistance between the common and the Normally-Closed contact (the one that is not used) - result was .2 ohms (as expected). Next step was to actuate the relay and measure the resistance between the Common and the Normally-Open contact (the one we care about) and the resistance was 230 ohms. This is the obvious issue so I opened it up to see what was going on.

In first picture, you can see that the Normally-Closed contact is clean and shows no sign of oxidation or carbon build-up. There is no current drawn through this contact so we should not expect to see anything unless there is moisture getting into the contact. Not definitive, but it gives some indication that it is not corrosion. Looking at other internal components in the relay, I also do not see any signs of moisture causing corrosion either.

In the next picture, you can see the Common (center pole of the switch) and there I see some signs of heating at this contact point. Which may indicate that the relay design is not compatible with the current load that is being drawn through the relay when it is actuated. So this could be a case of the wrong relay being used for this application.

In the last 2 pictures, I show the Normally-Open contact (the one we care about) before and after I scraped it. Just by scraping a small amount of the buildup off from the contact (see picture) the resistance dropped back to .2 ohms. By the way, this relay was heavily taped up to prevent moisture intrusion from the first day he purchased the sled. I think he pulled 6 feet of electrical tape off this relay before we could replace it.

So the failure mechanism is that there is a significant buildup of oxidation or carbon on the Normally-Open contact. As the contact oxidizes (or carbon builds up) the resistance increases and ultimately becomes significant with respect to the load and to much voltage will be dropped across this point.

There are several reasons that this can happen. There could be moisture getting into the relays, though I think I have ruled this out given that the other contacts do not show signs of corrosion. It can be that the load is too high for the relay, causing a significant arc when the relay opens which results in carbon buildup. Or, it could be that the materials used on the contacts are not suitable for the application. My first thoughts on solving this problem are to find a relay that has silver plated contacts - these appear to be copper, but I can't be sure.

The main reason for this post is to inform everyone that these relays are prone to failure and likely sealing them up will not help. So I want to encourage you to carry a few spares. I am considering setting up a test bench to simulate the current/voltage load on this relay and test some different relays to see if I can find one that will last. I would just test them in the sled but mother nature is not cooperating this year (at least out west). Also, with a microcontroller, I can switch the relay thousands of times/day for endurance testing.

Cheers,
Chris

Relay_NC_Contact.jpg Relay_Common_Pole.jpg Relay_NO_Contact_Pre.jpg Relay_NO_Contact_Scraped.jpg
 

Teth-Air

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FYI, as temperature increases every 10 degrees, corrosion rates can double. This is a very general statement but we have seen this in some conditions. These means that if water and heat are involved the problem is compounded.
 

SRXSRULE

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I have never thought taping these relays up was a good idea. Your not going to keep moisture or condensation out, temperature swings and all the steam from heat and snow melt is going to get moisture into the relay. Once you tape it.... with 6ft of electrical tape.. that just traps any moisture inside and just made the relay operate MUCH hotter.

I always just relocate the relays so the relay is pointing UP, and the wires are down. Moisture is going to get inside, give it a way to get out.
 

madmax

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Here’s a memo sent from Polaris to dealers 2 years ago (feb 2016) regarding failing relays. They specifically say on the second page to not tape the relays, but my 17 came from the factory taped.

D0D21DA9-BF25-4B3C-B94D-28999000A80A.jpg 2F4FD999-24A3-4E00-8904-BE3724CE19DC.jpg
 
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madmax

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Come to think of it, my 16 and 17 both have taped relays from the factory. This memo was sent out during the 2016model year, a ways before my 2017 sled were build. Nice to see they still build the sleds with the crappy flawed design after they know it’s a problem.
 
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Perk

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Hey guys, I wrote so much in my post I think I may have not been very clear on what I was trying to say. My main point was that I do not think this is caused by moisture intrusion. So I wanted to encourage everyone to carry a spare. It looks like carbon buildup on the contact - possibly caused by arcing. I see no signs of moisture getting into the relay.

Even if you don't carry a spare, if you are in a bind, I expect you could start your sled and then install a jumper wire after you got it running, but I would have to look at the complete schematic to be sure. I have only seen a clip of the relay connection schematic so far.
 
D

doobie

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ive seen numerous people switch to the panasonic relay, i myself just ordered 10 but havnt installed them yet. my relay posts were blue with corrosion once i inspected them. what do these relays contol?
 
J
Oct 15, 2013
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Come to think of it, my 16 and 17 both have taped relays from the factory. This memo was sent out during the 2016model year, a ways before my 2017 sled were build. Nice to see they still build the sleds with the crappy flawed design after they know it’s a problem.

The relays come taped together but they aren’t “taped” in the sense to keep moisture or anything else out.
 

Teth-Air

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When I got my 2016 I saw these relays and did not like the way they were mounted. I turned them over so the wires exited below just so water could run out of the connectors. I did tape them up but left the bottom open for drainage. In 4000 kms I had no issues but recently changed them anyway, after a friend's failed.
 

lennstang

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Relays

I went through this last season on my MY17 Assault 144. Power fade was immediate. Came out of a corner and suddenly, my RPM's dropped and never recovered. Dropped my sled off to Rick at NSP here in NH. I didn't bother using my warranty with my dealer because I had the EXACT same thing happen with my MY16 Axys 800 Rush...which they were never able to find the problem....which now I'm sure was the relays.
Back to my '17 Assault... Rick suspected an electrical issue, and tore into my sled. After checking every connector, he suspected the relays and replaced my power valve relays with Panasonics. My RPM's were back! Being a Master Electrician and VERY familiar with electricity, I also dissected the OEM relays and found the exact same issue as posted here...burned and pitted contacts. Here's my theory:
The OEM relays are rated to carry 30 amps at 14 VDC. In a normal environment, this would be no issue. But added widely fluctuating temps, moisture, vibration and you have the perfect recipe for failure. Especially low quality relays. Consider the way the relays plug into the harness. This exposed connection also begins to breakdown from the same elements and begins to build up resistance. Resistance causes voltage drop. When the volts go down, the amps go up. This causes heat....which ultimately breaks down the contacts and snowballs into failure. Because the servo motor is powered thru these relays, it can't get enough wattage to open the power valves all the way and you have the dreaded POWER FADE! This is why Polaris needs to update the ENTIRE electrical system and connectors on future snowmobiles. Let's hope this is addressed in MY19
 

AKFULLTHROTTLE

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Whats crazy is how so many can go season after season with zero issues but others fail? I myself or any Axys I ride with have ever had one fail.

Not saying there is not an issue, just saying I have never personally seen one or heard of one in my group.
 

lennstang

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Whats crazy is how so many can go season after season with zero issues but others fail? I myself or any Axys I ride with have ever had one fail.

Not saying there is not an issue, just saying I have never personally seen one or heard of one in my group.



The relays are ticking time bombs...they will fail. If I were you, I'd get some Panasonics for back up. Also grab 4 motor mounts while you're at it...Just in case....
 

wfk

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Does anyone have the Panasonic part number to share?
 

AKFULLTHROTTLE

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The relays are ticking time bombs...they will fail. If I were you, I'd get some Panasonics for back up. Also grab 4 motor mounts while you're at it...Just in case....

18 Mounts are different. And I think the recommendation is is like 1000 miles on the rubbers.
 

richracer1

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On HCS they are saying it is CM1A-R-12V

As I mentioned in the other thread about relays, the CM1A will be the SPST relay and will work perfectly.
The CM1 is a SPDT just like the Poo relays, just better quality. Both will function in our sleds.
 
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Prayn4snow

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Thanks for the info on these relays. Two years ago when I had problems with mine I couldn't find the relays anywhere. They were sold-out or on back order for months. I have corrosion pics on a previous post of mine with water getting in. I ended up getting a package of them and carry extras in my trailer for others. Im interested if the other ones are better. This is the ones I ordered straight from the manufacturer.

IMG_0635.jpg IMG_0636.jpg IMG_0637.jpg
 
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