any Power (fuel) commander(Dyno tech Jim) D8's gone down
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T
I have the PCIII on my assault with a map from Jim on it, however my sled has the latest poo reflash so I installed my wideband fuel gauge today to dial my sled in when I head out next week.
T
would you let us know what it reads from 5500 up to full throttle?..my 08 had the 09 map with the 1/27/09 recalibration(latest available) and it did the midrange scuff...
T
Ofcourse, I will have a map after the weekend if all goes well however it will only be for 1000-2000 elevation.
sorry for the repeat, this is my post from the "scuffing" thread......
i am running egt's on mine. unfortunately, i only recently put them on.....about 300 miles into a new sled. wish i had them on from the start, during breakin. i have a slight bit of exhaust port scuffing. i have installed a PCIII with slp's map and the new reflash. i only have about 3 rides on that setup unfortunately (damn work!). i also now have a mac and not a pc. this is what i have seen so far (riding 9-11k with slp pipe), there is a range from near 6000 rpm up to about, i think, 66-6700 that seems lean. i have no bog, but if i hold those rpm's for any length of time, my egts will head past 1275. i have actually richened it up with the buttons (don't need a pc to do that) on the high end (6-9000 rpm)...made it a tad better, but still not happy in that range. with this setup, it is too rich on the top. right now, i just make sure i watch temps and vary throttle position, if in doubt, pinning it cools her down. as soon as i can get my hands on a pc, i am going to make a few different maps and put them on an SD card so i can choose from them in the field and see if i can dial it in. i'm quite sure that during break in, i was getting it hot from what i see now. i had a exhaust valve bolt break at the cylinder....they were unable to extract, so i have new cylinders but they had no piston kits on hand and i had a big trip coming up. we will probably end up replacing the pistons due to the scoring. hopefully i will have the map dialed by then. there is NO doubt that in the 6's it is getting hot, even with the new flash. the slp map only added fuel in that range, but it still seems lean. i will post more when i know a bit more.
i am running egt's on mine. unfortunately, i only recently put them on.....about 300 miles into a new sled. wish i had them on from the start, during breakin. i have a slight bit of exhaust port scuffing. i have installed a PCIII with slp's map and the new reflash. i only have about 3 rides on that setup unfortunately (damn work!). i also now have a mac and not a pc. this is what i have seen so far (riding 9-11k with slp pipe), there is a range from near 6000 rpm up to about, i think, 66-6700 that seems lean. i have no bog, but if i hold those rpm's for any length of time, my egts will head past 1275. i have actually richened it up with the buttons (don't need a pc to do that) on the high end (6-9000 rpm)...made it a tad better, but still not happy in that range. with this setup, it is too rich on the top. right now, i just make sure i watch temps and vary throttle position, if in doubt, pinning it cools her down. as soon as i can get my hands on a pc, i am going to make a few different maps and put them on an SD card so i can choose from them in the field and see if i can dial it in. i'm quite sure that during break in, i was getting it hot from what i see now. i had a exhaust valve bolt break at the cylinder....they were unable to extract, so i have new cylinders but they had no piston kits on hand and i had a big trip coming up. we will probably end up replacing the pistons due to the scoring. hopefully i will have the map dialed by then. there is NO doubt that in the 6's it is getting hot, even with the new flash. the slp map only added fuel in that range, but it still seems lean. i will post more when i know a bit more.
M
Jim was supposed to be redynoing a 800 with the new reflash so they could update the numbers of the pc3.
T
No offence but Jim also thought you had to lean the mid range out to remove that stumble, if they had a wideband or EGT gauges hooked to the sled while dynoing they would have known the sled was lean. The fellow whom I purchased my PCIII used from was one that used that original map with the leaner mid range and went down.
T
can you modify the fuel map that comes from SLP or do you have to start from scratch? Also, when you make adjustments can you make them at more precise increments than 6-9000 RPM? Like 1000 RPM increments all the way through the range? What is considered optimal EGT temps on an 800 and what would be the high end dangerous temps?
Thanks in advance, I know it's a lot of questions!
P
You can modify a fuel map. Adjustments can be made at every 250 rpm, they blend together so as to not be sudden steps. I am adding much more fuel than my supplied map came with, with good results.
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like Ppoo said. every 250. i am going to build my first few maps this afternoon. slp made some adjustments in a narrow range in mid range. i am not sure if i can just mod that map or not. i figure i will print out the grid that shows what their map is, then build a map with the adjustments i think it needs. in the "button" mode (you use 3 buttons on the controller itself) you can only add or subtract in 3 rpm ranges. i also got the lcd display, which allows you to put as many different maps as you would like on a SD memory card, insert it and then choose as you ride. if i had the time and the snow to take an afternoon with a laptop, i'm sure i could get it dialed dead nuts. pretty slick system. thought i would jump in and make the investment. easy to disconnect and move to the next sled. when i get enough time to dial it in, i will post what i find. right now i have a minor to moderate score on the pto side...some REEEAAAL fine ones on the mag side. i agree with most of the suspected causes, especially being VERY lean in a very narrow band midrange.....like 700 rpm wide. if you cruise in that particular range, you are going to score/melt down. my best advice would be, other than WOT, VARY the throttle A LOT!
T
Thanks guys, haven't had any problems...YET. I'm so paranoid runnin down the trail the little that I do that my hand starts crampin up after only four or five miles from how much I vary the throttle. But get it on the hills and in the trees and it is sick!!! I swear it's mother was part mountain goat, it just doesn't stop. Just need to get that lean spot taken care of and maybe do a little to the top end
800 fuel needs
I have two 800s and both have different fuel needs. I run EGTs and a power commander on both. Each one is mapped differently. the common thing between them is adding alot of fuel between 5500 and 6750 at 10 and 20 tps settings,also leaning them down from 7500 and higher at 80 and 100 tps, at the lower rpms 5500 to 6750 I have added as much as 17 percent fuel. I would not drive a 800 without an EGT guage and a PCIII or boondocker box. I could take a new sled out and burn it down in 20 minutes.I also run 1 gallon of 110 octane gas to 4 gallons of 91 octane non-ethanol with wires plugged in on ECU. I have also noticed that running more 110 octane does not slow it down like you would think.I think the head design could use some improvent. The PCIII is very easy to use.In a couple of hours you can start with a base map,drive it watch your egts and rpms come back to your laptop and plug into PCIII and put in new numbers and try again until EGTS are okay. 5500 to 6750 are 10 and 20 TPS. I have Koso EGTS and wideband O-2 guages on both. I feel you only need EGTS. The PCIII with the EGTS is very easy to use and fun to tune. I hope this helps some of you make a decision. If you do not buy anything make sure you vary your throttle alot and pray that you are lucky.
I have two 800s and both have different fuel needs. I run EGTs and a power commander on both. Each one is mapped differently. the common thing between them is adding alot of fuel between 5500 and 6750 at 10 and 20 tps settings,also leaning them down from 7500 and higher at 80 and 100 tps, at the lower rpms 5500 to 6750 I have added as much as 17 percent fuel. I would not drive a 800 without an EGT guage and a PCIII or boondocker box. I could take a new sled out and burn it down in 20 minutes.I also run 1 gallon of 110 octane gas to 4 gallons of 91 octane non-ethanol with wires plugged in on ECU. I have also noticed that running more 110 octane does not slow it down like you would think.I think the head design could use some improvent. The PCIII is very easy to use.In a couple of hours you can start with a base map,drive it watch your egts and rpms come back to your laptop and plug into PCIII and put in new numbers and try again until EGTS are okay. 5500 to 6750 are 10 and 20 TPS. I have Koso EGTS and wideband O-2 guages on both. I feel you only need EGTS. The PCIII with the EGTS is very easy to use and fun to tune. I hope this helps some of you make a decision. If you do not buy anything make sure you vary your throttle alot and pray that you are lucky.
T
what temps do you feel are optimum on the EGT's? and am I right in saying that elevation doesn't matter. You are just setting a baseline that the ECU automatically compensates for elevation?
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tec800 There is no such thing as opti temp range on an egt instrument. Every single one is independant and different and the numbers you see only relate to that cylinder and that probe. You have to test your plugs at varying RPM ranges to identify what your number reports mean in relationship to your state of tune.
In just minutes of testing you can run through a few ranges of temp reports and RPM levels and have it per your buggy. A cheapo 10 x jewelers loupe and a mag light with the scope end is very handy so that you can read your plugs. You can absolutely see your fuel and spark conditions and KNOW EXACTLY what is going on in there. A data logging playback EGT is also super helpful for tying it all together.
www.tsrsoftware.com has a good little schematic on reading and understanding what your plugs should look like and what each aspect of result means on your plugs. REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO KILL SPARK AT YOUR GIVEN RPM LEVEL TO ACCURATELY READ YOUR PLUGS FOR THAT RPM LEVEL. If you want a mid range 6500 RPM read you need to hold it there for a few seconds and kill the spark for your reads. Note the temp and read the plugs and you'll know what 6500 1175 egt I and 1208 egt II means...do it again at full say 8450 and see what your full circuit tells you. Long durations of heat or consistant RPM heat will some times change your reads. This is why 1175 may be safe at 10 seconds hold for 6500 but 1175 for 10 seconds at 8450 might turn to 1350 as the engine heat soakes and the pipe temps grow. That is why you experiment and why you get knowledge from your instrument so when you see numbers you know what they mean both for state of tune and for safety.
In just minutes of testing you can run through a few ranges of temp reports and RPM levels and have it per your buggy. A cheapo 10 x jewelers loupe and a mag light with the scope end is very handy so that you can read your plugs. You can absolutely see your fuel and spark conditions and KNOW EXACTLY what is going on in there. A data logging playback EGT is also super helpful for tying it all together.
www.tsrsoftware.com has a good little schematic on reading and understanding what your plugs should look like and what each aspect of result means on your plugs. REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO KILL SPARK AT YOUR GIVEN RPM LEVEL TO ACCURATELY READ YOUR PLUGS FOR THAT RPM LEVEL. If you want a mid range 6500 RPM read you need to hold it there for a few seconds and kill the spark for your reads. Note the temp and read the plugs and you'll know what 6500 1175 egt I and 1208 egt II means...do it again at full say 8450 and see what your full circuit tells you. Long durations of heat or consistant RPM heat will some times change your reads. This is why 1175 may be safe at 10 seconds hold for 6500 but 1175 for 10 seconds at 8450 might turn to 1350 as the engine heat soakes and the pipe temps grow. That is why you experiment and why you get knowledge from your instrument so when you see numbers you know what they mean both for state of tune and for safety.
T
^^^Wow! thanks for that explanation, was more than i expected. shed a lot of light on the subject
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T
what brand EGT gauges are you guys running?
Sorry if I'm hijackin' this thread
Sorry if I'm hijackin' this thread
T
Since I will be working on a map this weekend based off, a wideband O2 sensor what numbers do you guys shoot for, I am used to tuning turbo 4 strokes with the wideband, this will be my first 2 stroke. Any pointers or do you shoot for 13-13.5:1 midrange tapering to 12:1 at WOT?
P
1066 miles on my sled and have been running a PC III since around 120 miles and no problems at all.
Jamie,
We strongly believe that you should initially tune a W/B setup exactly like you tune with an EGT. Those different lambda reports at different rates of RPM or spark feel differently and the engine reacts differently through your ranges due to heat clutching traction weight ect. Run your experience tests and note those readings in comparison with plugs, response, sound, smell, and reaction of your vehicle. Then the same deal applies..from that point on you know 4,800RPM at 14.1 is right (just a random example to illustrate the point) then 6500RPM 12.5 then 8400RPM 12.1 ect ect. No different then you do with a quality egt setup. A/F is easy but it's a combination of the two/three/four ect jugs so you don't get added extra info that an egt sensor will tell you about the condition of your independant cylinder.
To date, by a long long long shot the OLD, ANCIENT, ARCHAIC, {BUT} tried and true Digatron datalogger is still the numero ONO instrument available at any reasonable cost. When applicated correctly and factoring performance, function, reliability, against expense and in this radical environment, there is still no peer. (remember "applicated correctly" are the KEY words here...for some that has proven to be an impossibility..but we'll probably hear from them anyway
)
We strongly believe that you should initially tune a W/B setup exactly like you tune with an EGT. Those different lambda reports at different rates of RPM or spark feel differently and the engine reacts differently through your ranges due to heat clutching traction weight ect. Run your experience tests and note those readings in comparison with plugs, response, sound, smell, and reaction of your vehicle. Then the same deal applies..from that point on you know 4,800RPM at 14.1 is right (just a random example to illustrate the point) then 6500RPM 12.5 then 8400RPM 12.1 ect ect. No different then you do with a quality egt setup. A/F is easy but it's a combination of the two/three/four ect jugs so you don't get added extra info that an egt sensor will tell you about the condition of your independant cylinder.
To date, by a long long long shot the OLD, ANCIENT, ARCHAIC, {BUT} tried and true Digatron datalogger is still the numero ONO instrument available at any reasonable cost. When applicated correctly and factoring performance, function, reliability, against expense and in this radical environment, there is still no peer. (remember "applicated correctly" are the KEY words here...for some that has proven to be an impossibility..but we'll probably hear from them anyway
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