Slow backshift with Tied on Pro 146". Any input?

FrankTheTank · Mar 29, 2014

Im using a Tied on a Polaris for the first time, but im not happy with the backshift in higher speeds.

ProRMK 800 2014 - 146” Summit Flexedge track.
Stock motor (my ported longrod is on the workbench getting the last touch)
Used mostly for boondocking/ditchbanging.
Riding 1500-4000ft.
I like aggressive setups, almost like snox.

Primary
10-68 / 165-310 (also tried 165-344, no difference in backshift)

Tied
73-57/46
140-260 (also tried 140-240, no big difference in backshift)

81-8300rpm

It amazing up to 40-45mph, shifts really good and is FAST!
But after 40-45mph the backshift gets lazy.
It still accelerates good, but the backshift is slow. Both in deep snow and trail.
Secondary is running hotter then the primary.

Any suggestions what to try?
73-55/46 helix?
I like the upshift in slower speed, so I think the 73 angle is good.
Stiffer sec. spring?
Different primary weights?
Tried lighter 10 series weight. Gets better backshift, but looses upshift.

Sheetmetalfab · Mar 30, 2014

http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373574&page=2

Geo put it splendidly here.
Makes me want to try the tied on my shelf again.
Stiff springs and heavy wieghts aggressive helix = snappy hard hitting bottom end.
I had a very similar setup as you for a year and went back to the tss04 with carls cycle helix.
Not as revvy but it shifts up much better.
The tied would always tach the same and hold it.
Heat and blown belts were the downside.

RMK935VA · Mar 30, 2014

Roller bearing in secondary makes the Pro backshift much better. I run Carl's Clutching Kit with the roller bearing on a 13 Pro with a Camoplast X3 track. It works very well. It holds RPM in the deep stuff even at altitude and it backshifts much better than before adding the roller bearing. It is a $25 part. It works very well. Call Carl's at 208-853-5550 and they can get you one. It is an automotive part that you can probably get at a NAPA store or equivalent but I don't know the right size. Ask Carl's.

Kcjepperson · Apr 1, 2014

You ran the bearing in a tied clutch?

Sheetmetalfab · Apr 1, 2014

Carls kits are for stock secondary.

Danny Dangles · Apr 2, 2014

RMK935VA said:
Roller bearing in secondary makes the Pro backshift much better. I run Carl's Clutching Kit with the roller bearing on a 13 Pro with a Camoplast X3 track. It works very well. It holds RPM in the deep stuff even at altitude and it backshifts much better than before adding the roller bearing. It is a $25 part. It works very well. Call Carl's at 208-853-5550 and they can get you one. It is an automotive part that you can probably get at a NAPA store or equivalent but I don't know the right size. Ask Carl's.

I assume this roller bearing is Steel? An aluminum helix won't last long riding on steel, or does carls kit come with a steel helix?

geo · Apr 2, 2014

We ran a bearing in the DD secondaries to help with the twist of the spring during function and compression. It was a flat needle bearing between two steel races and did not damage the aluminum. It did add to the preload and finish rate because of thickness (you only compress a bit over an inch total anyway) and just like when buttons changed to rollers it required recalibration.

The Tied only has spring twist from compression. IMO it only needs the plastic washer under the cup to handle that and the wear it creates.

ak · Apr 2, 2014

Danny Dangles said:
I assume this roller bearing is Steel? An aluminum helix won't last long riding on steel, or does carls kit come with a steel helix?

Bearing is steel, helix aluminum, the helix does not contact the bearing the spring cup contacts the bearing. The bearing is a step up from a Delrin washer IMHO.

Danny Dangles · Apr 2, 2014

ak said:
Bearing is steel, helix aluminum, the helix does not contact the bearing the spring cup contacts the bearing. The bearing is a step up from a Delrin washer IMHO.

Oh sorry my bad I assumed we were talking about the rollers.

Bossman · Apr 3, 2014

Backshift

FrankTheTank said:
Im using a Tied on a Polaris for the first time, but im not happy with the backshift in higher speeds.

ProRMK 800 2014 - 146” Summit Flexedge track.
Stock motor (my ported longrod is on the workbench getting the last touch)
Used mostly for boondocking/ditchbanging.
Riding 1500-4000ft.
I like aggressive setups, almost like snox.

Primary
10-68 / 165-310 (also tried 165-344, no difference in backshift)

Tied
73-57/46
81-8300rpm

It amazing up to 40-45mph, shifts really good and is FAST!
But after 40-45mph the backshift gets lazy.
It still accelerates good, but the backshift is slow. Both in deep snow and trail.
Secondary is running hotter then the primary.

Any suggestions what to try?
73-55/46 helix?
I like the upshift in slower speed, so I think the 73 angle is good.
Stiffer sec. spring?
Different primary weights?
Tried lighter 10 series weight. Gets better backshift, but looses upshift.

You are fighting spring RATE issues. The Tied is running hot because the spring is putting too much pressure on the belt. Put the 140/240 back in or better yet, find a 140/220. The primary spring rate is too low, (310-165=145). Install a 140/330 primary spring, as these engines do not need a high engagement to pull hard off the line. That primary spring will help with backshift also. Fine tuning upshift and backshift can also be made easier with Dalton QA weights or the new Bikeman magnet type. Neither require reshimming the drive clutch.

BILTIT · Apr 3, 2014

I wish i had more pertinent info but i don't ride more than 48mph trackspeed in the mountains (hoping to increase that speed). Up to that speed i find the TIED works great. I have ridden this combo at 1800-2200' but there is never a lot of snow to really test it.

6-8000'
LR800 13.6 domes
Dalton QAP-2 (64gr)
140/330 primary spring

red/black sec. spring (140-240)
73-55-.46

PC 153x2.25 track
stock gearing

Will be running a 2.6PC track this weekend with 7t drivers so some gear reduction and a leaner fuel map, curious if i see better performance.

FrankTheTank · Apr 3, 2014

Bossman said:
You are fighting spring RATE issues. The Tied is running hot because the spring is putting too much pressure on the belt. Put the 140/240 back in or better yet, find a 140/220. The primary spring rate is too low, (310-165=145). Install a 140/330 primary spring, as these engines do not need a high engagement to pull hard off the line. That primary spring will help with backshift also. Fine tuning upshift and backshift can also be made easier with Dalton QA weights or the new Bikeman magnet type. Neither require reshimming the drive clutch.

Ive used primary starting rates from 130-150 on the 800, but Ive tested 165 now and really like when I can spinn away the snow doing downhill turns in the deep snow.
Im going to use Rooster weights now and make them lighter on top to see if it helps.
Also going to try a 62-54F helix with some other springs and see what happens.

Talked to a racer and he said they have problems getting the speed with Tied. Its fast off the startingline, but the 04 gives them higher speed.

FrankTheTank · Apr 3, 2014

Maybe I should call it respons instead of backshift...
It holds the rpm all the time, but it looses its throttle response when im on/off throttle over 40-45mph.
It still goes upp to 81-8200, but not as fast as in slower speed.
I dont have that problem with the TSS04.

green_denali · Apr 3, 2014

tied

I've never ran a tied, but you might be running to steep of a helix angle. Steep helix angles give you awesome upshift but crappy backshift. It could be why you lose throttle response when your on\off throttle over 40-45mph, its not back shifting quick enough, or hardly back shifting at all. You should try using the clutching calculator or call Carls.

TEAM Industries · Apr 4, 2014

Just wanted to share some info on what we have been finding from our testing. The heat you are seeing is caused from too shallow of a helix angle in the TIED clutch. The response above 45 MPH is a combination of 2 factors. I believe the 68 gram weights are too much, and the .46 helix is right on the bubble of where you are having the issue. I would suggest trying a 73-63.36/73-61.36 with a black/purple spring. Lighten the drive clutch weights to 10-66. I was running a 73-61.36 Red/black spring at 9000 feet of elevation with a 2014 PRO 155 with a 140/330 primary and the 10-62 weights holding 8150 to 8200 RPM . Back to back with a 73-61.46/73-59.46 I lost RPM's and had hard time recovering them. It also makes more heat when this happens. Hands down the newer helix was better backshifting and ran cooler than our old set up.

FrankTheTank · Apr 4, 2014

Thank you Team, will try that!
I was using your clutch calcylator today and I also figured out that I should try a steeper helix together with Rooster weights. Great calcylator tool!

ditch1000 · Apr 5, 2014

TEAM Industries said:
Just wanted to share some info on what we have been finding from our testing. The heat you are seeing is caused from too shallow of a helix angle in the TIED clutch. The response above 45 MPH is a combination of 2 factors. I believe the 68 gram weights are too much, and the .46 helix is right on the bubble of where you are having the issue. I would suggest trying a 73-63.36/73-61.36 with a black/purple spring. Lighten the drive clutch weights to 10-66. I was running a 73-61.36 Red/black spring at 9000 feet of elevation with a 2014 PRO 155 with a 140/330 primary and the 10-62 weights holding 8150 to 8200 RPM . Back to back with a 73-61.46/73-59.46 I lost RPM's and had hard time recovering them. It also makes more heat when this happens. Hands down the newer helix was better backshifting and ran cooler than our old set up.

X2. Last year when I installed my RK TEK Drop in kit I was running the 73-57-46 helix and it ran ok but the RPM's would fall off from 8300 to 7700 and not recover. I talked to Team in the summer and they sent me the 73-57-36 helix; it is night and day better. I was running @ 6000-7000' in Blue River in 2-3 feet of fresh snow all week; it pulls 8350-8500 rpms all day long and backshifts awesome. I'm running Team Rooster weights with 66 grams, Team Red and Black secondary spring and stock primary spring.
Could not be happier with my setup!!

FrankTheTank · Apr 6, 2014

TEAM Industries said:
Just wanted to share some info on what we have been finding from our testing. The heat you are seeing is caused from too shallow of a helix angle in the TIED clutch. The response above 45 MPH is a combination of 2 factors. I believe the 68 gram weights are too much, and the .46 helix is right on the bubble of where you are having the issue. I would suggest trying a 73-63.36/73-61.36 with a black/purple spring. Lighten the drive clutch weights to 10-66. I was running a 73-61.36 Red/black spring at 9000 feet of elevation with a 2014 PRO 155 with a 140/330 primary and the 10-62 weights holding 8150 to 8200 RPM . Back to back with a 73-61.46/73-59.46 I lost RPM's and had hard time recovering them. It also makes more heat when this happens. Hands down the newer helix was better backshifting and ran cooler than our old set up.

I cant find the part# for the 73-63.36/73-61.36.
Is it custom or do you have a partnr?

FrankTheTank · Apr 7, 2014

Im getting closer to get it the way I like!
It also has some more power now, with Swedish Mountain Products ported cylinder, SPI pipe, Reedspacer and a -09 800 head.
Just trying the head, will change to a PAR 12,5.
The -09 head DET like crazy right now!

I have to put more weight on it, softer primary spring or try anoter setup in the TIED.
84-8500 and sometimes over 8600 and hit the revlimter!
So it has some power now!
The throttlerespons from 5000 is awsome!
But the Tied still gets a lot warmer then the primary.

Im now running:
73-61/,46
155-222

10-66
165-344

Slow backshift with Tied on Pro 146". Any input?

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