Are 4-Strokes Really Closing the Gap?

rmscustom · Jun 3, 2014

rmscustom said:
The biggest reasoning I see time and time again in the heavy weight forum is that if you cant handle a 4s your not strong enough to... What happens when you put one of these strong guys on a light weight chassis? The way I see it the viper boosted or not would be the 2nd to the last choice to put a noob on.

Refer to my last post on this thread before you ask if I have rode one.

Don't forget that I was invited here from a PM from Christopher to watch a bogus video before you flame me for what am I doing here.

I think you guys missed or ignored my point... Let me explain this with something I do everyday. I can swing my 28oz estwing hammer with the best of them but my 14oz Dalluge titanium hangs on my belt every day. Why? Less weight in my hand and on my belt all day long means less fatigue and more agility...

My GF could drive a nail home with the heavy hammer for sure but she could do twice as many with half the bitching with the titanium,,, and I'd have half the bent/stuck nails to deal with. lol

christopher · Jun 5, 2014

rmscustom said:
The way I see it the viper boosted or not would be the 2nd to the last choice to put a noob on.

With logic like that we would have no sledding community at all because all of the older sleds everyone started out riding on where all heavier than the lightest sleds of today.

Weight is only ONE part of the equation.
It is most certainly NOT the end all in making a decision.

Butta · Jun 6, 2014

christopher said:
With logic like that we would have no sledding community at all because all of the older sleds everyone started out riding on where all heavier than the lightest sleds of today.

Weight is only ONE part of the equation.
It is most certainly NOT the end all in making a decision.

That might be a little bit of an unfair interpretation. Based on what was available back in the day, people made choices on what was best to start out on. Based on what's available today, people make those same choices....I would never recommend such a distinctly unique sled to a newb. Instead, I'd recommend an RMK600, or something similar, because they wouldn't be so intimidated by power and physically beat by weight. In a previous post, you say your kids don't have what it takes yet to ride your mod'ed Nytros, and I would guess they aren't "newbs"?

I'd love nothing more than for Yamaha to build a comparable and competitive mountain sled out of the box, without the need for a turbo. Lighter weight, better handling, etc etc. Yammie is capable of it, just like they're capable of building a killer sport SxS...but yet we don't have it.

My 08 Nytro was terrible. Sooo many things about that sled irritated the heck out of me. I also lost thousands on that sled, and was happy to see it go, so I'm not buying into the whole "4s hold higher resale values"....Maybe in the trail segment, but not in the mtns.

I'd love to know what the difference is between a 4s Viper and the A/C 1100 (besides motor)? If this Viper is so "game changing", what's the cause? It's in an A/C chassis, and it's powered by an old and less-than-exciting motor (sure, it's smooth and bulletproof, but not on par with today's flagships).

Sorry for the long-windedness....

christopher · Jun 6, 2014

Butta said:
it's powered by an old and less-than-exciting motor (sure, it's smooth and bulletproof, but not on par with today's flagships).

Give me an example of a "Flagship" 4 stroke snowmobile motor so I know what you are referring to?

geo · Jun 7, 2014

My recommendation to a new rider (or a re-introduction rider) would be purely selfish.

Chris, I just don't have your many options ( or size of family lol). Both my sleds are keepers, 91 PhazerLT and '13 Pro. They will eventually be "melded" into one lol.

My recommendation would be based on my needs if I wanted to take out and "train" another newbie.
#1- Ready off the floor (so I don't need to make room in my shop lol)
#2- Easy for me to ride (for the inevitable "Ride it out of the creek for me please" lol)
#3- Light as possible (for the inevitable "I'm so tired, where are the trucks?")
#4- " " " ( " " " " Help me! The sled just went down here.")
#5- " " " ( " " " " I can't lift it!")
#6- " " " ( In case they always come over with beer or wine for the barby and I want to remain friends.)
#7- The ability to pop out of the little stucks with just a tug on one ski.

I'm sorry but no 4strk has currently met that criteria for me. Selfish, but my needs would lead me to recommend one of those new Pro's.

christopher · Jun 7, 2014

On most any given weekend there is a 50-50 chance I am taking a "Never-Ever" on their first ride in Island Park.

For all those rides I have two bone stock Yamaha Phazers.
The sleds have proven to be ROCK SOLID, never give me ANY problems to speak of, take almost no maintenance, start every time, run strong, and bring the noobs back to the trailer with a smile on their face!

And..
The lady riders LOVE the fact that there is NO pull start, NO Smoke and NO Smell.

The only mod I really need to make to them is the running boards.
They just plain suck.

stingray719 · Jun 7, 2014

christopher said:
On most any given weekend there is a 50-50 chance I am taking a "Never-Ever" on their first ride in Island Park.

For all those rides I have two bone stock Yamaha Phazers.
The sleds have proven to be ROCK SOLID, never give me ANY problems to speak of, take almost no maintenance, start every time, run strong, and bring the noobs back to the trailer with a smile on their face!

And..
The lady riders LOVE the fact that there is NO pull start, NO Smoke and NO Smell.

The only mod I really need to make to them is the running boards.
They just plain suck.

Wait till you get the Viper and test it for more than a short test run.

Girlfriends last sled was a supercharged Phazer with 153 track and she loved it. Was like pulling teeth to get her to test ride a Viper and now I can't get her off it...in fact I just made a deal for another Viper as I think the 2014 M8 will go away.

Point being she says the Viper is easier to ride than the Phazer and I agree.

.

christopher · Jun 7, 2014

Look forward to finding that out!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 pro.

Butta · Jun 8, 2014

christopher said:
Give me an example of a "Flagship" 4 stroke snowmobile motor so I know what you are referring to?

I was not referring to specifically 4 strokes. Yamaha's only entries in the mountain market are 4 strokes, hence their decision to have their flagship a 4 stroke by default. However, other brands choose performance as their goal and choose to build their flagships with 2 stroke technology, which the title of this thread even clearly demonstrates the 2 stroke's superiority in the mountain market.

christopher · Jun 8, 2014

Well, I will patiently wait for Yamaha to release their new engines just as they committed they would last year. Then we may have a true Flagship 4 stroke motor

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 pro.

christopher · Jun 8, 2014

My best guess for the next engine...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 pro.

Reeb · Jun 8, 2014

Is that the FZ-09 motor?

Sent from my GT-I8260L using Tapatalk

christopher · Jun 8, 2014

Reeb said:
Is that the FZ-09 motor?

Sent from my GT-I8260L using Tapatalk

WELL DONE!
I am impressed that you were able to identify it.

Key Features:

Introducing an all-new 847cc liquid-cooled, in-line 3-cylinder, DOHC, 12-valve engine with fuel injection. This FZ-09™ engine combines advanced high tech components including YCC-T® and Yamaha D-Mode, with a crossplane concept crankshaft to deliver an exciting, torquey and quick-revving engine character.
“Crossplane Crankshaft Concept” provides linear torque development in response to the rider’s throttle input. Among the advantages of the in-line 3-cylinder engine are: (1) linear torque development, (2) even firing intervals that provide smooth torque characteristics and a good feeling of power in the low to mid rpm range, (3) a light, slim and compact design, and (4) performance that combines the characteristics of both 2-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines.
To reduce vibration and deliver a smoother ride, the engine has a primary coupled-force balancer that revolves in the opposite direction and at the same speed as the crankshaft.
The ride-by-wire Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle (YCC-T) system senses the slightest throttle input by the rider, relays the data to the ECU, which instantaneously calculates the ideal throttle valve opening based on engine rpm and throttle opening, and then sends commands to a servo-motor actuator that moves the throttle valve which actively controls the intake airflow volume. This is a technology contributing to the rider’s feeling of torque and controllability from the new 3-cylinder engine.
Electronic fuel injection has been adopted to provide outstanding drivability. 12-hole injectors attached directly to the cylinder head deliver a highly pressurized spray of atomized fuel with droplets as small as a few microns. This enables high-precision injection directed at the valve skirts that contributes to optimum fuel combustion resulting in outstanding drivability and performance.
Yamaha D-MODE (or “Drive Mode”) variable throttle control system to allow the rider to choose the optimum engine character for their riding situation. The rider can choose at will from three throttle valve control maps (Standard Mode, “A” Mode, and “B” Mode) for different performance characteristics. Operation is performed by a button on the handlebars. STD Mode is set to accommodate a wide range of riding conditions. In this mode the rider can enjoy the 3-cylinder engine’s linear torque feeling from low speeds all the way up to high speeds. A-Mode lets the rider enjoy sharper throttle response in the low-to mid-rpm range than the STD Mode. B-Mode lets the rider enjoy milder throttle response than the STD Mode for more relaxed power characteristics.

Engine:

This lightweight liquid-cooled, 847cc, 4-stroke, in-line 3-cylinder, DOHC, 4-valve engine with downdraft intake and fuel injection is all new. With a 78 x 59.1mm bore x stroke and 11.5:1 compression ratio, it produces an exciting, torquey and quick-revving engine character.
Some of the advantages of the 3-cylinder engine in the FZ-09 include linear torque development due to the even firing intervals that provide smooth torque characteristics and a good feeling of power up into the low to mid rpm range, as well as combining desirable characteristics of both 2-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines. In addition, the engine design can be light, slim and compact.
To reduce vibration and help give a smoother ride, the engine has a primary coupled-force balancer that revolves in the opposite direction and at the same speed as the crankshaft.
The connecting rods are made using the fracture split (FS) method to ensure a high degree of circular precision in the rod’s big-end ring for a precise fit and smoother crank revolution. The fracture split (FS) method is where the big-end ring of a forged connecting rod is split in two by applying a sharp impact. This creates a perfectly matching split surface that naturally produces a much more precise mating surface when they are bolted together again around the crankshaft.
To provide both exciting and quick revving torque characteristics and a unique intake sound, the 3-cylinder intake funnels have been designed with uneven lengths. The first cylinder funnel is 102.8mm, the second 82.8mm and the third is 122.8mm. This combines with the effects of the YCC-T system to contribute to an excellent torquey engine character.

stingray719 · Jun 9, 2014

They had me until they mentioned "STD Mode"..................

05900 · Jun 9, 2014

Who says four strokes aren't dirty. . . .

Reeb · Jun 9, 2014

christopher said:
WELL DONE!
I am impressed that you were able to identify it.

I've been around quite a few MT-09's since I've been exiled from North America. Very very cool rides. Nicer for overall riding than the loaner R1 I have down here.
The MT-07(FZ's in N.A.) should be a cool little scoot too.
But for sled purposes, the new 850cc from Yamaha should compete directly with the 900 Ace.
Seems like that is a category that is gaining popularity once again(90-100hp) among trail riders.

christopher · Jun 9, 2014

Reeb said:
I've been around quite a few MT-09's since I've been exiled from North America. Very very cool rides. Nicer for overall riding than the loaner R1 I have down here.
The MT-07(FZ's in N.A.) should be a cool little scoot too.
But for sled purposes, the new 850cc from Yamaha should compete directly with the 900 Ace.
Seems like that is a category that is gaining popularity once again(90-100hp) among trail riders.

Make that bad boy factory boosted and we should have a real winner on our hands.

turbo800 · Jun 9, 2014

christopher said:
WELL DONE!
I am impressed that you were able to identify it.

Key Features:

Introducing an all-new 847cc liquid-cooled, in-line 3-cylinder, DOHC, 12-valve engine with fuel injection. This FZ-09™ engine combines advanced high tech components including YCC-T® and Yamaha D-Mode, with a crossplane concept crankshaft to deliver an exciting, torquey and quick-revving engine character.
[*]“Crossplane Crankshaft Concept” provides linear torque development in response to the rider’s throttle input. Among the advantages of the in-line 3-cylinder engine are: (1) linear torque development, (2) even firing intervals that provide smooth torque characteristics and a good feeling of power in the low to mid rpm range, (3) a light, slim and compact design, and (4) performance that combines the characteristics of both 2-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines.

To reduce vibration and deliver a smoother ride, the engine has a primary coupled-force balancer that revolves in the opposite direction and at the same speed as the crankshaft.

The ride-by-wire Yamaha Chip Controlled Throttle (YCC-T) system senses the slightest throttle input by the rider, relays the data to the ECU, which instantaneously calculates the ideal throttle valve opening based on engine rpm and throttle opening, and then sends commands to a servo-motor actuator that moves the throttle valve which actively controls the intake airflow volume. This is a technology contributing to the rider’s feeling of torque and controllability from the new 3-cylinder engine.

Electronic fuel injection has been adopted to provide outstanding drivability. 12-hole injectors attached directly to the cylinder head deliver a highly pressurized spray of atomized fuel with droplets as small as a few microns. This enables high-precision injection directed at the valve skirts that contributes to optimum fuel combustion resulting in outstanding drivability and performance.

Yamaha D-MODE (or “Drive Mode”) variable throttle control system to allow the rider to choose the optimum engine character for their riding situation. The rider can choose at will from three throttle valve control maps (Standard Mode, “A” Mode, and “B” Mode) for different performance characteristics. Operation is performed by a button on the handlebars. STD Mode is set to accommodate a wide range of riding conditions. In this mode the rider can enjoy the 3-cylinder engine’s linear torque feeling from low speeds all the way up to high speeds. A-Mode lets the rider enjoy sharper throttle response in the low-to mid-rpm range than the STD Mode. B-Mode lets the rider enjoy milder throttle response than the STD Mode for more relaxed power characteristics.

Engine:

This lightweight liquid-cooled, 847cc, 4-stroke, in-line 3-cylinder, DOHC, 4-valve engine with downdraft intake and fuel injection is all new. With a 78 x 59.1mm bore x stroke and 11.5:1 compression ratio, it produces an exciting, torquey and quick-revving engine character.

Some of the advantages of the 3-cylinder engine in the FZ-09 include linear torque development due to the even firing intervals that provide smooth torque characteristics and a good feeling of power up into the low to mid rpm range, as well as combining desirable characteristics of both 2-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines. In addition, the engine design can be light, slim and compact.

To reduce vibration and help give a smoother ride, the engine has a primary coupled-force balancer that revolves in the opposite direction and at the same speed as the crankshaft.

The connecting rods are made using the fracture split (FS) method to ensure a high degree of circular precision in the rod’s big-end ring for a precise fit and smoother crank revolution. The fracture split (FS) method is where the big-end ring of a forged connecting rod is split in two by applying a sharp impact. This creates a perfectly matching split surface that naturally produces a much more precise mating surface when they are bolted together again around the crankshaft.

To provide both exciting and quick revving torque characteristics and a unique intake sound, the 3-cylinder intake funnels have been designed with uneven lengths. The first cylinder funnel is 102.8mm, the second 82.8mm and the third is 122.8mm. This combines with the effects of the YCC-T system to contribute to an excellent torquey engine character.

That idea kinda reminds me of the Super Tenere 1200 twin...

"The 1199cc parallel twin, liquid-cooled engine features a unique 270° crank for superior traction because both pistons fire so closely together. It’s almost like having a big-bore thumper without the uncomfortable vibration."

christopher · Jun 9, 2014

They have so much great engine technology to draw upon and bring to bare in the marketplace.

slash · Jun 9, 2014

christopher said:
Make that bad boy factory boosted and we should have a real winner on our hands.

But with it being a 11.1 mtr it WILL need lower comp pistons to charge it !
spendy adventure ...

Are 4-Strokes Really Closing the Gap?

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