Continued...................again!!
Asking for riders' input about winter non-motorized areas (PART 7)
- Thread starter rmk2112
- Start date
D
WMC: heres the Rub...Rondondee came on here all nice and serious with his "warnings" then he gets confrontational with some, including Pm'ed scare tactics. I dont take him serious to consider him or you a threat.
Rondondee or you, who I believe are two in the same. Since you dont want to identify yourself then you will remain the same as far as I am concerned.
WMC: now to the "meat" of your stuff. You and others like you, continuously want more and more closed land areas for your personal use to limit others so you and your friends can have a "better" world to play in.
My analogy would be of a couple of boys that go out onto the public school playground where we all pay taxes to support and then tell all the other children that we dont want you in the sandbox. IF you want to play in our sandbox you have to dress like us and use the same toys or we dont want you around. WE will go to the principal and show photos of you peeing in the sandbox so they will kick you out.
Now you want a filtered access area for some trumped up reason...again you are being discriminatory to all disabled americans wether directly or indirectly by attempting to limit or restrict motorized use... still is what it is! The amount of already existing closed land per capita in this state is already in your favor. Now recently a good sized wilderness area has been added that goes right to the edge of the town of Index, WA. You have great access there. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2008088723_onlywa03wildintro.html now there is another 100,000plus acres that you have closed to many people by having limited their access. Next ill bet you say that the snow is not the type you want there so you want different areas closed so you can have your private sandbox at the cost of my dime as I am a tax payer that pays a nice chunk.
The wilderness areas should be left alone but you should try to get the horsemen out of there also as the horses do more damage to any trail than a mountain bike does. IF you can remove the horses then and only then can you start with your buffer zone project!
There are so many better ways to spend your extra time than by your very greedy self centered personal agandas. May be you couild gather some funds and help some children in an orphanage. Nope you would rather be greedy and focus on land grabs. Most hardcore bikers are less greedy and do more for a community in a non selfish way, than what I see from the likes of you.
WMC..you spout off like Rondondee also..if you are not the same you lie in the same crap. I spelled lie like that to show a multiuse of the meaning as related to you and your decietful, greedy, self centered and arrogant ways. IF you dont want to be Rondondee I will assign you a more respectful name that you can use..it would be Mr Richard Head. I will just call you "Dick" for short.
I will do what I can both conventionally and unconventionally to stop the likes of you. I am so glad that you are not afraid of anything or anybody, (just like Rondondee again...hmmmmmm) you remind me of the late Gen Custer! he thought he was tough as well.
Now money I was putting to some more charitable causes will be focused to WASSA thanks to the likes of you.
The part I dont get is that you want to stop individual snowmobiles from getting near a lot of different areas..way more than just a buffer to a wilderness area. Then you say in your own statements that you want to have snowmobile road tours? Are you for real?
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Initial Action -- The Thousand Skiers Project: One thousand skiers/snowshoers/Forest users will write (email) the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Supervisor and request designation of new non-motorized areas on the Wenatchee Mountains. The ‘significant’ area we are targeting is the unroaded Wenatchee Mountains ridge crest from Van Epps Pass to Three Brothers (mountain). This encompasses Ingalls Peak, Fortune Peak, Iron Peak, peaks surrounding Bean Creek, Earl Peak, Navaho Peak, Three Brothers and the Wenatchee Mountains Crest from Rd 9716 to the west of Diamond Head across Tronsen Head, Mt. Lillian including down to the Old Ellensburg trail to Mission Peak and on to the Mission Ridge Road including Lake Clara, Mission Peak, and surrounding areas. This area would offer many short day-tours, long day tours, overnight self-powered ski tours, and snowmobile road-assist tours. We hope to generate a thousand comments by August 15, 2010.
SIZE="6"]Now if you look in the mirror long enough you will see why I and many others dont and will not be respectful of you or your ideas. You could care less about anybody other than those in your own interest group and you know it. Respect is earned and not given..you dont have it and I consider you a direct threat to society. I have been on snow shoes and skins in the same areas you speak of and I was hard pressed to come across a snowmobile. You have to try real hard and go to specific few places to see any thing that would bother you. If you cant find a line to ski on that isnt tracked you havnt tried very hard..I can do it all day long. The visability of a track doesnt affect the snow you are on.[/[/SIZE]COLOR]
Rondondee or you, who I believe are two in the same. Since you dont want to identify yourself then you will remain the same as far as I am concerned.
WMC: now to the "meat" of your stuff. You and others like you, continuously want more and more closed land areas for your personal use to limit others so you and your friends can have a "better" world to play in.
My analogy would be of a couple of boys that go out onto the public school playground where we all pay taxes to support and then tell all the other children that we dont want you in the sandbox. IF you want to play in our sandbox you have to dress like us and use the same toys or we dont want you around. WE will go to the principal and show photos of you peeing in the sandbox so they will kick you out.
Now you want a filtered access area for some trumped up reason...again you are being discriminatory to all disabled americans wether directly or indirectly by attempting to limit or restrict motorized use... still is what it is! The amount of already existing closed land per capita in this state is already in your favor. Now recently a good sized wilderness area has been added that goes right to the edge of the town of Index, WA. You have great access there. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2008088723_onlywa03wildintro.html now there is another 100,000plus acres that you have closed to many people by having limited their access. Next ill bet you say that the snow is not the type you want there so you want different areas closed so you can have your private sandbox at the cost of my dime as I am a tax payer that pays a nice chunk.
The wilderness areas should be left alone but you should try to get the horsemen out of there also as the horses do more damage to any trail than a mountain bike does. IF you can remove the horses then and only then can you start with your buffer zone project!
There are so many better ways to spend your extra time than by your very greedy self centered personal agandas. May be you couild gather some funds and help some children in an orphanage. Nope you would rather be greedy and focus on land grabs. Most hardcore bikers are less greedy and do more for a community in a non selfish way, than what I see from the likes of you.
WMC..you spout off like Rondondee also..if you are not the same you lie in the same crap. I spelled lie like that to show a multiuse of the meaning as related to you and your decietful, greedy, self centered and arrogant ways. IF you dont want to be Rondondee I will assign you a more respectful name that you can use..it would be Mr Richard Head. I will just call you "Dick" for short.
I will do what I can both conventionally and unconventionally to stop the likes of you. I am so glad that you are not afraid of anything or anybody, (just like Rondondee again...hmmmmmm) you remind me of the late Gen Custer! he thought he was tough as well.
Now money I was putting to some more charitable causes will be focused to WASSA thanks to the likes of you.
The part I dont get is that you want to stop individual snowmobiles from getting near a lot of different areas..way more than just a buffer to a wilderness area. Then you say in your own statements that you want to have snowmobile road tours? Are you for real?
About the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition
Purpose: Advocacy for non-motorized winter recreation on Forest Lands.
Goal: Designation of USFS Non-Motorized areas for winter recreation. Specifically, we seek non-motorized status for the pristine unroaded crest of the Wenatchee Mountains.
Initial Action -- The Thousand Skiers Project: One thousand skiers/snowshoers/Forest users will write (email) the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Supervisor and request designation of new non-motorized areas on the Wenatchee Mountains. The ‘significant’ area we are targeting is the unroaded Wenatchee Mountains ridge crest from Van Epps Pass to Three Brothers (mountain). This encompasses Ingalls Peak, Fortune Peak, Iron Peak, peaks surrounding Bean Creek, Earl Peak, Navaho Peak, Three Brothers and the Wenatchee Mountains Crest from Rd 9716 to the west of Diamond Head across Tronsen Head, Mt. Lillian including down to the Old Ellensburg trail to Mission Peak and on to the Mission Ridge Road including Lake Clara, Mission Peak, and surrounding areas. This area would offer many short day-tours, long day tours, overnight self-powered ski tours, and snowmobile road-assist tours. We hope to generate a thousand comments by August 15, 2010.
SIZE="6"]Now if you look in the mirror long enough you will see why I and many others dont and will not be respectful of you or your ideas. You could care less about anybody other than those in your own interest group and you know it. Respect is earned and not given..you dont have it and I consider you a direct threat to society. I have been on snow shoes and skins in the same areas you speak of and I was hard pressed to come across a snowmobile. You have to try real hard and go to specific few places to see any thing that would bother you. If you cant find a line to ski on that isnt tracked you havnt tried very hard..I can do it all day long. The visability of a track doesnt affect the snow you are on.[/[/SIZE]COLOR]
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DD... I think the Horses days are numbered anyway... the new catch phrase in the Wilderness is "Human Powered".
Recently, kiteboarding/kiteskiing has been oulawed in some Wilderness areas.. as has mountainbiking... It is still "human powered"... but is "mechanized". Kind of splitting hairs as ski touring is mechanized as well even though the mechanism (skis) are human powered...
Human powerd ski mechanisms... Human powered bike mechanisms.... I have bindings on my bike and bindings on my Skis....Hmmmmmm????
Recently, kiteboarding/kiteskiing has been oulawed in some Wilderness areas.. as has mountainbiking... It is still "human powered"... but is "mechanized". Kind of splitting hairs as ski touring is mechanized as well even though the mechanism (skis) are human powered...
Human powerd ski mechanisms... Human powered bike mechanisms.... I have bindings on my bike and bindings on my Skis....Hmmmmmm????
Maybe that would be a good thing... if the folks in charge of the wilderness keep trying to lock it up tighter and tighter, they may just pi$$-off enough people that there will be a united movement to have the whole wilderness program and its limitations brought under scrutiny and eased off.
I can understand not logging, mining, or building new roads in a wilderness area, but whats wrong with maintaining open recreational access to all the people of this nation?
I guess that would just be too 'nice'...
C
We have been fighting much the same fight here in Bend OR too.
It seems that when They were kids they never learn to share so they take and they take until
We have no more place to play. In addition when they take more land it makes more people more apt to go were they don’t belong.
We need to fight this and also help any other area fight it too.
Remember we all like the same sport so if you see that another area needs input, HELP them too someday you may want to ride there and it is gone so help. The more letters to your congressmen the better. Put up the email addresses for where to write to and we will do it too.
Join SAWS.
D
Yes wild sky..... the one we fought off for years until Obamanation overwhelmed us and we lost. That is where I met Dave and Framus as we went to the W/S protest in '03 I think it was...... in Index where Larsen was brought in through Reiter road so he wouldn't have to see us as (And there were Many)as he crossed the bridge into town . I believe it (Wild Lie) was the reason I joined snowest in the first place.
My question is this.......
WHO (with what agenda) exactly is watching this at USFS?
Dave ..your the man!!
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My proposal:
1/3 of WNF would become non-motorized only. I think we all know what that means. And yes, this includes non-motorized wilderness areas. Since wilderness IS a non-motorized use area, it would be insane to leave these areas out of the equation.
1/3 of WNF would become motorized only. This concept might be new to those folks that do not play well together. These areas would mean “no non-motorized recreation” is allowed. See how the “exclusive” agenda can work for both sides? If non-motorized users were not allowed in the motorized areas, which includes most of the nice groomed trails snowmobilers pay for, they couldn't complain about our presence where they want "quiet" recreation.
1/3 of WNF would be “shared use” for those that can get along..
Deal? I bet not.
I do not plan on monitoring this thread frequently so that I can respond to every little rant from WMC, because I already know what WMC’s answer will be. But at least now I hope the SAWS position is clear for all.
Carry on - excuse my little interruption
My question is this.......
WHO (with what agenda) exactly is watching this at USFS?
Dave ..your the man!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My proposal:
1/3 of WNF would become non-motorized only. I think we all know what that means. And yes, this includes non-motorized wilderness areas. Since wilderness IS a non-motorized use area, it would be insane to leave these areas out of the equation.
1/3 of WNF would become motorized only. This concept might be new to those folks that do not play well together. These areas would mean “no non-motorized recreation” is allowed. See how the “exclusive” agenda can work for both sides? If non-motorized users were not allowed in the motorized areas, which includes most of the nice groomed trails snowmobilers pay for, they couldn't complain about our presence where they want "quiet" recreation.
1/3 of WNF would be “shared use” for those that can get along..
Deal? I bet not.
I do not plan on monitoring this thread frequently so that I can respond to every little rant from WMC, because I already know what WMC’s answer will be. But at least now I hope the SAWS position is clear for all.
Carry on - excuse my little interruption
H
"The other issue revolves around areas that are legal for snowmobiling that we have skied for decades, where snowmobiles not long ago did not go. Now with the fantastic new machines, snowmobiles can eat up the areas that we could ski not long ago because snowmobiles could not go there in the past. We understand how offensive it is for snowmobile riders to consider losing terrain, please imagine how it is now with the rutting, and the usual other issues, for skiers who until just 2-3 years ago saw a lot more untracked Forest areas to ski, between the snowmobile tracked areas."
This is BS! People have been riding snowmobiles into these areas since 1985. The cry that snomo trenches ruin your ski terrain is weak at best. The majority of snowmobiling occurs on intermediate slopes by a skiing standard. Sell your sled, head back to Stevens, learn some skills, and then go back to snowmobile assisted skiing. I just don't see how snowmobile tracks ruin any decent skiers experience. The two actually go hand-in-hand quite nicely!
I snowmobile and BC ski/snowboard, frequent the areas under scrutiny (particularly Scotty Creek) and do believe riding in the wilderness is a genuine concern, if for no other reason than maintaining our current access.
In Scotty:
I haven't noticed a huge increase in poaching. (although there is a group that can't seem to resist dropping into Hardscrabble, which sucks, and the 50 yards over the boundary down Falls Creek, which I find extremely difficult to get worked up about...) There are orange wilderness signs as of April this year in at least a few spots along the boundary between Three Brothers and Earl, which I might add mysteriously moved a ridge line East about 7-8 years ago...reducing our riding area...WTF? I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee
!
This is BS! People have been riding snowmobiles into these areas since 1985. The cry that snomo trenches ruin your ski terrain is weak at best. The majority of snowmobiling occurs on intermediate slopes by a skiing standard. Sell your sled, head back to Stevens, learn some skills, and then go back to snowmobile assisted skiing. I just don't see how snowmobile tracks ruin any decent skiers experience. The two actually go hand-in-hand quite nicely!
I snowmobile and BC ski/snowboard, frequent the areas under scrutiny (particularly Scotty Creek) and do believe riding in the wilderness is a genuine concern, if for no other reason than maintaining our current access.
In Scotty:
I haven't noticed a huge increase in poaching. (although there is a group that can't seem to resist dropping into Hardscrabble, which sucks, and the 50 yards over the boundary down Falls Creek, which I find extremely difficult to get worked up about...) There are orange wilderness signs as of April this year in at least a few spots along the boundary between Three Brothers and Earl, which I might add mysteriously moved a ridge line East about 7-8 years ago...reducing our riding area...WTF? I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee
!
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M
huFfer, you bring up an interesting side effect that these people/groups (WMC,,randondee...et al) dont consider...they have now brought a lot of attention to an area that most didn't even know existed before now...but you can bet that there will be many more wanting to explore this area now that they know about it.
D
Good points hufer. I have looked at the snowboarders in the Bear Paw area and they for the most part are riding(boarders term for skiing with one board) on terrain that my turbo dragon wouldnt get more than 100 feet up in decent snow. Actually they are slopes that are steep enough that I wouldnt even waste my time as it will only get one thing and that is "stuck"!
Now the boarders all seemed to get along pretty good with other snowmobilers in that area. I met a few and they all seemed like pretty ok guys.
I concur that WMC and the boys need to stay on the slopes of a real ski area. It is much safer for them there and if they get lost they dont have to have the snowmobile rescue team come looking for them....WMC wants free skiing at the cost of others. I still cant believe that on a different skiier web site he was calling for snowmobile tours into the off limits proposed areas. Talk about one hypocritical loser.
Also in addition to the Scotty Creek entrance into the Nav..there is also the back way in from the parking lot on the west side of the Blewett snopark.
Maybe we should have a saftey law that states that long objects like Skis can not be carried on a snowmobile. Unless you have a 4stroke and need the sno jack you get a waiver (ruffy in mind)
Now the boarders all seemed to get along pretty good with other snowmobilers in that area. I met a few and they all seemed like pretty ok guys.
I concur that WMC and the boys need to stay on the slopes of a real ski area. It is much safer for them there and if they get lost they dont have to have the snowmobile rescue team come looking for them....WMC wants free skiing at the cost of others. I still cant believe that on a different skiier web site he was calling for snowmobile tours into the off limits proposed areas. Talk about one hypocritical loser.
Also in addition to the Scotty Creek entrance into the Nav..there is also the back way in from the parking lot on the west side of the Blewett snopark.
Maybe we should have a saftey law that states that long objects like Skis can not be carried on a snowmobile. Unless you have a 4stroke and need the sno jack you get a waiver (ruffy in mind)
W
"The other issue revolves around areas that are legal for snowmobiling that we have skied for decades, where snowmobiles not long ago did not go. Now with the fantastic new machines, snowmobiles can eat up the areas that we could ski not long ago because snowmobiles could not go there in the past. We understand how offensive it is for snowmobile riders to consider losing terrain, please imagine how it is now with the rutting, and the usual other issues, for skiers who until just 2-3 years ago saw a lot more untracked Forest areas to ski, between the snowmobile tracked areas."
This is BS! People have been riding snowmobiles into these areas since 1985. The cry that snomo trenches ruin your ski terrain is weak at best. The majority of snowmobiling occurs on intermediate slopes by a skiing standard. Sell your sled, head back to Stevens, learn some skills, and then go back to snowmobile assisted skiing. I just don't see how snowmobile tracks ruin any decent skiers experience. The two actually go hand-in-hand quite nicely!
I snowmobile and BC ski/snowboard, frequent the areas under scrutiny (particularly Scotty Creek) and do believe riding in the wilderness is a genuine concern, if for no other reason than maintaining our current access.
In Scotty:
I haven't noticed a huge increase in poaching. (although there is a group that can't seem to resist dropping into Hardscrabble, which sucks, and the 50 yards over the boundary down Falls Creek, which I find extremely difficult to get worked up about...) There are orange wilderness signs as of April this year in at least a few spots along the boundary between Three Brothers and Earl, which I might add mysteriously moved a ridge line East about 7-8 years ago...reducing our riding area...WTF? I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee
My friend from Pine St, in the late 80's I and some friends skied many days through the winter in Stafford and Brothers/ Navaho, and at Longs less. We never encountered tracks or snowmobiles in Stafford and Brothers. We do go in there now every year, not as much as before there was so much snowmobile traffic. Of course you may not see us, we make few tracks and no noise and it is not like we are going to ski out in front of you!
In our discussions at USFS it is pretty clear that significant Wilderness poaching in the area occurs, it is not just a few who see that.
It looked like a different wind pattern from el nino last year allowed easier access since the Iron Mtn Rd behind Miller did not drift in so much. On our tour we saw probably 20 machines below Navaho and Brothers in Etienne Cr, all having fun on a great day. And tracks in Wilderness when we skied off of Navaho into Falls Cr.
Because of increased area of snowmobile use in recent years, more terrain is taken from skiers and snowshoers, and winter campers. We are asking for some areas without snowmobiles that are good for our uses. That is the total agenda.
Thank you.
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W
The Wilderness prohibitions include wheels, motors, landing aircraft like parasails, and etc..
Quote- - "but whats wrong with maintaining open recreational access to all the people of this nation?." Yes, sir, this is the point! Bravo!
Wilderness is not accessible for most of the non-motorized winter Forest users. Therefore, these folks ski, snowshoe, and camp often closer to the car. Yes, some of us use snowmobiles or go overnight to Wilderness. It is a flaw in the design that the closest Forest to cars is mostly used by snowmobiles, and the Wilderness except in a few places is hours away when walking on skis or snowshoes.
The other part of the issue is increasing areas used by snowmobiles in non-Wilderness Forest. Back in the day 15 to 20 years ago, and 1 or 2 years ago in some places, we parked our sleds and had most of the off-road snow for skiing. With new technology, snowmobiles routinely climb 30 degrees and steeper I have seen tracks commonly on 38 degree slopes all of the time and tracks on nearly all of the available snow in some areas. So now we 'share' rutted snow. The last two years I observed that snowmobile riders follow my ski track from a stash up above the trees, the snowmobile climbs the cut bank off of the road, follows my ski track up through the trees and finds a new play area. Then it is a snowmobile area, rutted and not good skiing, not to mention other safety conflicts between skiers and snowmobiles on the same slope.
We are asking to get some terrain given back for winter non-motorized areas. WMC states over and over we are not anti-snowmobile, we just do not want to be on the same slopes as snowmobiles, so we ask for some designated winter non-motorized areas.
Thank you very much for the discussion.
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C
N
I have never seen WMC or Randonee (I am familiar w/who he is...) or anyone else skiing in the area over the last 10 years, although I know people do, and we go there a decent amount. I did notice an increase of snowmobilers using the area after the "publicity" on Snowest this past winter, thanks Randonee
I was afraid that might be the most noticeable outcome from all this.......
Congratulations WMC (and Randonee), you've brought more attention to this area, and singlehandedly brought more new sleds into 'your' area than we've done in the past 10 years. By 'we', I mean the small handful of sledders that know and ride this area on a regular basis.
I've tried to take part in a civil and constructive conversation here. It's disappointing to see WMC take quotes from these threads to other message boards and portray them as the 'voice of the snowmobiler'. I see the same quote about the one day when they saw 7 sleds in Wilderness; and the same letter from Mr. Foss addressing the problem. The same addresses posted to encourage anyone and everyone to write the USFS. Obviously WMC is aware that 90% of these letters will be from people who never have and never will ski this area. The letters will come from people who view sledders as the stinky, redneck, bad guys. This same info is now posted on any message board where WMC thinks he can get support.
The same rhetoric is getting old. 'Incompatible', 'give back', 'rutted', 'chopped up'. I will gladly accompany WMC and any of his companions any day of their choice next winter. I guarantee that we can find more lines than we can ski in a day, untracked by snowmobile. This fabricated user conflict is starting to tire me out.
Wilderness violations are a different issue. As I've said a dozen times, I fully support any effort to curb this problem. A group of us are already working together to get more signage in problem areas. There is a significant group of us who will no longer look the other way when we see evidence of sleds in Wilderness. Hopefully poachers will start to think twice. This is the only 'real' problem that exists in the Teanaway.
Well said.
H
Couldn't have said it better!
-I would also gladly go any day next year to any of these areas and help Rando/WMC find endless untracked lines. I'll do one better and accompany him far closer to Leavenworth and we won't even take sleds. Although I'm certain he knows many places that fulfill his "agenda"... they're everywhere.
I don't live on Pine street.
Not that it is relevant, but whether you saw sleds or not, they went in there in the mid-late 80's.
Washington skiers and snowshoers have over 4.5 million acres of designated non motorized land to use, it's hard to imagine it being "difficult" to find a place to go. No one I know ever has. How many acres are available to snowmobiles in Washington?
How is closing Scotty good for users without snowmobiles? It's 6+ tedious road miles just to get to the pass, the first place any decent skiing can be found and it's another 3 to the end of the road where the real good skiing begins, hardly fulfilling your "easy access for non motorized agenda". Or the Teanaway being much better? Or Van Epps? And your cry for limited road-only sled access is a joke at best.
Thankfully enough most years the road does drift and slide keeping anyone without sled skills out. Sure, you can skin in but it makes it a much longer and questionably worth it day.
Etienne Creek? Barf! The name was already changed once to a more pc version; Negro Creek. I'm starting to think being called a redneck would be a compliment.
Bottom line is your "agenda" is crap and completely self-serving.
Y
It(the rhetoric) does get quite repetative, particularly if you follow WMC around on the sites to counter his most outlandish personal point of view and posts.
2 things need to be thought about from our side, without a doubt the wilderness violations don't do us any positive what so ever, the second is making sure the message is out about sharing space with non-motorized folks in shared use areas. For every positive we can show about our sport there are going to be those in the opposition that counter and being courteous can only help our position.
At this point I don't think further conversation with WMC can move forward or be positive until he produces the data he's been asked to generate to finish outlining his proposal. All of the topics he's bringing is simply to get some of you worked up to collect comments to use against us at some point in the future. Unless he can show why we should trust his statement of "not being anti-snowmobile", then we can't give him the quotes. This conversation has gone round and round on the TAY board and even here on SW, if you really want to understand his position or get a better sense of his proposal then look back on the threads, let's not give him more dialogue until he comes up with the additional data.
Fact is, we(sledders) are doing actual activities that will make a difference in this debate and I don't think doing a bunch of repetative talking is going to make any difference. Besides it's the middle of the summer and not much of anything is going to get done about winter by the majority until this fall when folks are interested in the topic.
WMC, produce the maps and/or engage in new information and ideas, otherwise it's just chanting coming from you that folks will eventually drown out as white noise.
S
"Because of increased area of snowmobile use in recent years, more terrain is taken from skiers and snowshoers"
BS.wheres my waders.its getting deep in here.
BS.wheres my waders.its getting deep in here.
D
most of the areas WMC(Want More Control) or (Whiney Malicious Communist) wants to have all to his fat arse self have very limited snowmobile access. I drove by Scotty Creek access many times last winter and most of the time there were absolutly NO vehicles parked there. It isnt a "popular area"..I have been in there before a few times and didnt see many tracks of snowmobilers..the ones that were there were limited to a couple of hills and they were not all over the place. I could have skiied many lines untouched right next to them. I would guess that WMC's skiing ability is lacking or piss poor and he needs to snowplow more areas without distractions.
WMC..think rope tow at mission Ridge..thats were you need to stay. You will get along well with the other childish mentalities there...Children that is!
Now WMC wants to use the I was there first scenerio. Well that just doesnt fly....any Native American will tell you that. If WMC's reasoning was even close to valid then the Trappers(animal) should be able to have there trap lines allowed in there again..unfortunatly that shows that rights by who was there first doesnt hold water to this litmus test.
WMC..think rope tow at mission Ridge..thats were you need to stay. You will get along well with the other childish mentalities there...Children that is!
Now WMC wants to use the I was there first scenerio. Well that just doesnt fly....any Native American will tell you that. If WMC's reasoning was even close to valid then the Trappers(animal) should be able to have there trap lines allowed in there again..unfortunatly that shows that rights by who was there first doesnt hold water to this litmus test.
S
maybe they just want a closed safe area to smoke wacky weed?.
D
That my friend had me laughing my arse off:face-icon-small-hap I think you may be on to something. Somebody that wants to have his privacy..hmmmm Perhaps WMC is bringing in his farming supplies in the Winter so he can start his growing operation.
If it was so he could smoke his weed he should have just said so..it would have been a more valid point than his other BS self centered, greedy, oportunistic ideas.
The more I think about it the more I think you hit the nail on the head. You missed the point that after he gets stoned with his boyfriend they want to have their romantic privacy. WMC and Rondondee together on their little skis behind a tree in a romantic entaglement..just hope they dont stain the untracked snow with their DNA.
Im still busting a gut on that one..why did no one see this before??????:smokin::smokin::smokin::smokin::
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