Why I started riding Yamaha again

Turblue · Nov 15, 2018

fc8464 said:
First off I have never owned or ridden a Sidewinder. My only experience is my Turbo Viper. The biggest problem I see is the bulk of the weight is in the front. Even with loosing weight from mods the front is always going to be heavy and be out of balance. This is just my experience on my sled.

Forsure , rest of chassis weighs same as cat. I’ve never rode a viper but from the guys that have the Sidewinder and viper aren’t even in the same class on how they handle.

Too bad Yamaha doesn’t do the demo rides in your areas, be great to see your opinions after riding one.

Dogmeat · Nov 15, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oor...jbc3EPgvfOoC9CR9QLEjiOwO_yRC3vxbFV-91FPVpjpmM

I still just can't get over the weight.

That is literally 100-lb heavier than the comparable Cat, Ski Doo and Polaris sleds.

Big10inch · Nov 15, 2018

Actually the Sidewinder is pretty well balanced front to rear. There is a post in the Yammi section where a member put his on scales and it was nearly 50/50 front to rear.

I think the reason the SW handles so much better than the Viper is the dropped chaincase that came in 2018. It is IMO what makes the Polaris such a great riding sled and was a HUGE improvement for the Cat chassis starting with the 17 Mtn Cats.

Dogmeat · Nov 15, 2018

Big10inch said:
Actually the Sidewinder is pretty well balanced front to rear. There is a post in the Yammi section where a member put his on scales and it was nearly 50/50 front to rear.

I think the reason the SW handles so much better than the Viper is the dropped chaincase that came in 2018. It is IMO what makes the Polaris such a great riding sled and was a HUGE improvement for the Cat chassis starting with the 17 Mtn Cats.

Thats cool. So that extra 120-lbs is at least "balanced well".

Tell ya what, why don't you take a Skidoo, Polaris or Cat.... Get used to riding it .... Then strap 12 10-lb weights evenly distributed front to rear, and tell me how it feels

There is no way I'm buying a sled that is 120-lbs heavier than every other sled on the market, I don't care how "well its balanced".

Big10inch · Nov 16, 2018

Dogmeat said:
Thats cool. So that extra 120-lbs is at least "balanced well".

Tell ya what, why don't you take a Skidoo, Polaris or Cat.... Get used to riding it .... Then strap 12 10-lb weights evenly distributed front to rear, and tell me how it feels

There is no way I'm buying a sled that is 120-lbs heavier than every other sled on the market, I don't care how "well its balanced".

I have no idea why you are trying to argue with me. Have you been following the thread? I am the guy who has been talking about the stupid amount of excess weight the whole way through. Just stating that I read about a guy who put his on scales and reporting what he found.

I wouldn't buy one either. They are thousands more expensive and probably ride just like my Cat but with my 110 lb wife sitting on the hood. Maybe I will figure out how to do that but she is likely to protest that experiment.

Yamaha could do better if they tried. Losing customers and dealer support because they are not remaining competitive could spur a revolution or cause them to bail out completely, who really knows? I am just like you though, Yammi sleds are not even on my list to consider due to the excessive weight over the competition. The power no where near makes up for it when it comes to technical mtn riding.

Turblue · Nov 16, 2018

I did have to chuckle on you guys posting against each other, when your on the same side of the fence. Lol.

Yes the Sidewinder is very well balance and handles exceptionally well.

Turblue · Nov 16, 2018

Dogmeat said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oor...jbc3EPgvfOoC9CR9QLEjiOwO_yRC3vxbFV-91FPVpjpmM

I still just can't get over the weight.

That is literally 100-lb heavier than the comparable Cat, Ski Doo and Polaris sleds.

In all fairness they should be weighed with a turbo installed on the 2 stroke to be in the same class.

Big10inch · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
In all fairness they should be weighed with a turbo installed on the 2 stroke to be in the same class.

That's fine but would not address the weight issue. 2 stroke turbo kits only ad a few lbs to the sled, usually less than 5 lbs. Makes the costs similar but the Yammi is still pig heavy even when compared to a 2 stroke turbo. We already covered this several pages back. You can make sure the 2 stroke has electric start too, you already suggested that as well but the penalty barely drops below triple digits even then.

Big10inch · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
I did have to chuckle on you guys posting against each other, when your on the same side of the fence. Lol.

Yes the Sidewinder is very well balance and handles exceptionally well.

Dogfood is still mad at me for not jumping on the notion that carrying a ton of avy gear on your back is the only way to ride... Clearly it clouds his abity to read and comprehend what has transpired in this thread...

Turblue · Nov 16, 2018

Big10inch said:
That's fine but would not address the weight issue. 2 stroke turbo kits only ad a few lbs to the sled, usually less than 5 lbs. Makes the costs similar but the Yammi is still pig heavy even when compared to a 2 stroke turbo. We already covered this several pages back. You can make sure the 2 stroke has electric start too, you already suggested that as well but the penalty barely drops below triple digits even then.

Sorry should of been more clear. A comparable turbo kit with intercooler / water to air. Pump gas 6# of boost isn’t comparable.

So let safely say 15-20# more turbo and Yes and I did say electric start at 20#

The Sidewinder looses 15# with the exhaust

Sidewinder 643 -15 = 628
Alpha 165 553+35/40= 588/593

I know I know serious sledders don’t use electric start, but there are more and more using electric start than 5 years ago.

My point is there pretty close if you set them up with comparable performance and equipment. Motor for motor there probably isn’t that big of difference

revrider07 · Nov 16, 2018

Yamaha is done with mtn segment to much rd for such a small market. We need lots of snow across the us to energize the market sell lots of sleds expand market maybe get there attention. Also there has to be some crazy staff in the yamaha corps to push for making of sleds. Yamaha only partnered cat for getting there side by side in to the usa.

Dogmeat · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
In all fairness they should be weighed with a turbo installed on the 2 stroke to be in the same class.

Add 20-lb then. So now the Yamaha is only 100-lb heavier, and the power-to-weight ratio of the 2 strokes overtakes that of the Yamaha, and you don't have the extra 100-lbs to try and pull over.

If all you want to do is climb big ass open hills and chutes, sure, buy a Yamaha, but if you actually want to ride, why bother?

Turblue · Nov 16, 2018

Dogmeat said:
If all you want to do is climb big ass open hills and chutes, sure, buy a Yamaha, but if you actually want to ride, why bother?

Why bother? Well Idk, because I really like riding the sled. Why do people drive Chevy, Ram, or Ford?

That’s the beauty of sledding we have great sled choices from all the manufacturers...everyone can ride what they want, and fill their personal need/wants in a sled. Do I want to ride the same sled as everyone in our group? Not really.

I’ve been riding for a lot of years, I’ve see the industry go from a comfort sled, to all out horsepower race, to now the lightest most nimble sled on the market for tight trees. Funny thing is I’ve always rode the trees, because that just the area we have. I’m not the best or fastest on the hill, but I have a hell of a lot of fun. Yes with a Yamaha!!!!!

I typically don’t replace my sleds that often, and knowing that the sled will last is key.

Big10inch · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
Sorry should of been more clear. A comparable turbo kit with intercooler / water to air. Pump gas 6# of boost isn’t comparable.

So let safely say 15-20# more turbo and Yes and I did say electric start at 20#

The Sidewinder looses 15# with the exhaust

Sidewinder 643 -15 = 628
Alpha 165 553+35/40= 588/593

I know I know serious sledders don’t use electric start, but there are more and more using electric start than 5 years ago.

My point is there pretty close if you set them up with comparable performance and equipment. Motor for motor there probably isn’t that big of difference

How do you figure a pump gas 2 stroke at 6 psi making 200-220 hp isn’t comparable to a pump gas 4 stroke making 190 hp? Even wth your flawed numbers it is still 40 lbs. That is still pretty substantial IMO. I can feel a huge difference between an Axys and my Cat and that is only a 25-30 lb difference.

Turblue · Nov 16, 2018

Big10inch said:
How do you figure a pump gas 2 stroke at 6 psi making 200-220 hp isn’t comparable to a pump gas 4 stroke making 190 hp? Even wth your flawed numbers it is still 40 lbs. That is still pretty substantial IMO. I can feel a huge difference between an Axys and my Cat and that is only a 25-30 lb difference.

Well I’ve seen a few line up and it’s no comparison regardless what the paper says. Have you? They need to be more around 10# of boost and the Sidewinder still edges away.

Not that I really care anyway

89sandman · Nov 16, 2018

What I find funniest about this thread is everyone keeps saying Yami could build a great lightweight fourstroke mountain sled if they wanted to. Cannot remember Yami having a Mountain sled chassis that was even in the ballpark this century. Rx1, Apex, Nytro, all chassis that were horrible. Not just because they were fourstrokes, although that didn't help, but because they were a terrible chassis even without the 4 stroke weight penalty. It took a Cat chassis to make them even somewhat competitive...

tomx · Nov 16, 2018

2008 Nytro was first sled I owned. I came from world of Yamaha 4-stroke dirtbikes loved the reliability so I thought Nytro was logical choice. I didn't have any friends at the time who sledded so I had no knowledge base to go from. That and my intention for buying a sled was to do backcountry snowboarding which I thought was going to be pretty much riding forest roads and snowboarding down between roads. That couldn't have been farther from the truth.

I pumped a lot of money into that sled, trying to make it lighter, ride better. Anything to give me an advantage. But it was an effin tree magnet with an anchor and I was just putting on Band-Aids cause I didn't want to swallow the pain of how much I was into the sled. When it got stuck, it got really really stuck. Being a new rider didn't help either. It made me scared, afraid to try new skills on the sled and stifled me as a rider.

There was one place the Nytro really shined that was going straight up and doubling (sometimes tripling) snowboarders to top of straight pull. Unfortunately in the PacNW, nothing is straight up, you almost always are navigating a ton of trees. Eventually my frustration peaked as my skill went up and I got a bunch of new sled friends that let me ride their sleds and I saw what I was missing when it came to handling. I found by halfway through the day I was cooked. I would just sit in the bottom of a bowl for an hour while my friends mobbed around cause I was too tired to move.

In 2013 I bought a Pro-Rmk and haven't looked back. I could see if I lived in Alaska or something a Yamaha still might be a good choice, but out here in the land of trees I need every advantage I can get, light and maneuverability are key.

If Yamaha just put some engineering muscle into a sled I bet they could come up with something great, but I get that they just don't care. Competition between the big three is too great, there's just not room for another player unless they can completely game change the market.

Big10inch · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
Well I’ve seen a few line up and it’s no comparison regardless what the paper says. Have you? They need to be more around 10# of boost and the Sidewinder still edges away.

Not that I really care anyway

Well I am running out of ways to say that I haven't seen or ridden a sidewinder. The dealers here can not sell them. One dealer I know of for sure stopped even trying and refused to carry the new ones. So there are none on the snow to compare too.

I have also already stated that extra power really doesn't even appeal to me, I honestly do not need it, my stock Cat takes me more places than I probably should go. My buddy has a turbo Assault with the comp track. My stock Cat already out climbs it in any kind of soft snow. I have ridden turbo Poo's Doo's Cats and way back a SC Apex. Not one of them has appealed to me. Seems like a "to each his own" thing. Bottom line for me is that the Yammi simply isn't competitive in the market today, too expensive, too heavy. They simply do not compare IMO.

Dogmeat · Nov 16, 2018

Turblue said:
Well I’ve seen a few line up and it’s no comparison regardless what the paper says. Have you? They need to be more around 10# of boost and the Sidewinder still edges away.

Not that I really care anyway

6# of boost, 8# of boost, 10# or even 20# of boost is completely totally 100% irrelevant unless ALL you are doing is shooting the sled up a wide open hill as fast as you possibly can.

I don't care if you're running 10# of boost or 100# of boost on your Yamaha, its still 100+ lbs to try and muscle around that you don't have on ANY of the competitor sleds.

The only thing those sleds are good for is stupid huge hill climbs, and the portion of the mountain rider segment that makes up the stupid huge hill climb folks is probably 1% at best.

I'm not trying to be a d*ck here, but I just don't understand why Yamaha insists on making ONLY 4-stroke sleds. Its just stupid from a marketing perspective.

Its the same thing with their dirt bikes. If they made a WR300 or (god forbid) WR400 2-stroke, KTM would have never bought Husqvarna.

I don't understand what their logic is. Unless they are literally producing these sleds for 1/2 the cost their competitors are, I don't see how they're making any money on them.

*shrug*

Mainly what I'm saying here is that I wish Yamaha would start making 2-stroke sleds and bikes again

Turblue · Nov 17, 2018

I agree that it was a pretty bold direction to go all 4 stroke. I think a big part of this was all around emission control...which seem to have gone quiet for now.

I also agree that Yamaha hasn’t had a decent mountain machine since 2003(rx1), but the Sidewinder definitely is a game changer if your a 4 stroke fan.

Honestly when I heard they formed a alliance with cat and started using their chassis, I was totally turned off. I’ve never been a fan of cat sleds. I’ve modded chassis for years....the fit and finish of the cat chassis over the years have been horrid. Today they are ok fit and finish, but I still scratch my head on their choice of plastics, fasteners, and overall fit. Polaris and skidoo definitely lead the pack in that department.

I suspect Yamaha, being huge global company, are still committed to the snowmobile industry. They definitely need to take a step back, and reduce their inventory... I firmly believe Yamaha will have a more competitive product in the years to come.

Hopefully we still have riding areas in the future, and our kids value the snowmobile experience... otherwise all the manufacturers will bail out of the snowmobile manufacturing business.

I make sure my kids get to experience snowmobiling and spend a great deal of time making the sleds work for them. Lol

Why I started riding Yamaha again

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