Oil Injection Delete Experience

ScubaSteveSK · Dec 23, 2013

First off, this is just my experience with the delete. I know there are thousands of trouble-free installs, including one in our riding group w/ lots of miles, but this is intended to be additional information for anyone looking to install it.

After debating and researching as to whether or not to install my BDX injection delete in my stock 2010 M8 with ~1,500 miles I put it in during summer and decided to go with the grease zerk method to provide lubrication to the water pump gear. Installed everything as per instructions - greased bushing, checked washer, added oil etc.

Made it about 200 meters up the trail in Revy last weekend and got a temp light. Zero coolant cycling through to the back cooler - ice cold. Pulled the motor (thanks Kertis @ Inifinite Powersports you guys rule) and the bottom end was full of brass shavings from the shredded water pump gear.

I don't know if the gear was on its way out already and this just accelerated it or what, but bottom line is the delete is the only thing that changed on that motor and it shredded the gear in less than a mile.

TLDR - If I were to do it all over again I would have added the small drip bottle to keep that gear assembly in a 'bath' of oil, or jumped a tapped injection line with a banjo fitting in the bottom of the case like guys do on turbo applications.

kidwoo · Dec 23, 2013

When I pulled my oil pump there were gold shavings on the banjo bolt. That had nothing to do with the delete but it's obvious the teeth were seeing some wear. It still hasn't really snowed enough to get after it where I live but I've put about 40 road miles on mine and it seems to be fine. Since yours happened immediately, it seems like there might be something wrong with the parts you put in like the zerk is maybe too long and hitting the pump shaft or your spacing is off with the blockoff plate and it's causing some binding on the shaft end?

If you think about what you do with this process, I have a hard time believing that pumping grease into the pump shaft isn't a BETTER lube system than the stock oiler setup.........especially right after you do it.

What grease did you use? Any chance it's gummed up when cold?

ScubaSteveSK · Dec 23, 2013

kidwoo said:
When I pulled my oil pump there were gold shavings on banjo bolt. That had nothing to do with the delete but it's obvious the teeth were seeing some wear. It still hasn't really snowed enough to get after it where I live but I've put about 40 road miles on mine and it seems to be fine. Since yours happened immediately, it seems like there might be something wrong with the parts you put in like the zerk is maybe too long and hitting the pump shaft or your spacing is off with the blockoff plate and it's causing some binding on the shaft end?

If you think about what you do with this process, I have a hard time believing that pumping grease into the pump shaft isn't a BETTER lube system than the stock oiler setup.........especially right after you do it.

What grease did you use? Any chance it's gummed up when cold?

I inspected the BDX blockoff plate closely and it shows no wear that would indicate binding, including the clearance at the end. The zerk I used is the same one recommended by BCIL. The grease was low temp so it shouldn't have been an issue.

I know what you mean though, the grease should be enough to lubricate that assembly. The mechanic was adamant that that gear needs to sit in oil constantly and has seen a lot of similar failures. I can see his point as grease could have the tendency to cavitate, whereas the oil will get pulled around the gear repeatedly.

kidwoo · Dec 23, 2013

I kinda went nuts with the grease gun when I did mine. I also let it sit with some oil in the case when I did a top end at the same time. But yeah the cavitation potential certainly seems possible.....and kind of the only explanation if you know you weren't getting any mechanical binding.

Are you going to pull the case and get a look at what happened? Definitely share some pics if you do.

But that sucks.

backcountryislife · Dec 23, 2013

Did you possibly double stack the washers? That's the one thing I could see doing that SO quickly.

It happening that fast had nothing to do with what was in there lube wise, something physically caused binding to take it out so quick.

How did the delete feel when it went on? was it really tight or did it feel like it "scraped" on there? Trying to understand why this would have failed so fast.

If you leave the old washer in, and add the new washer, you would fail very quickly, but it should be noticeable when trying to tighten the delete itself.

The grease isn't the problem... that would take MUCH longer to cause an issue if it were to be less than ideal.

ScubaSteveSK · Dec 23, 2013

Ya I made sure to check that there was only 1 washer in there on install. It went in easy, but after the gear went getting it back out was a challenge - had to use a flat screwdriver and a hammer, likely due to the pump gear alignment being pooched.

Including running the sled on the stand, up and down the lane, loading, and riding the trail it probably ran for a half hour total before it went.

I left the sled in Revelstoke to have it fixed - I'll see if Infinite can take some pictures of the gear assembly and BDX bushing for me.

Thunder101 · Dec 23, 2013

Weird
I'm one of the believers in fuel/oil is going to get to the gear to lube it. I put about an once of 2S oil in there and been riding it since.
Some how you got some binding on that gear ?? And don't know why the mechanic would say he's seen a lot of failures due to the oil deletes, wouldn't
We be hearing about them? Something was weird with yours half hour running and the gear is done.

ScubaSteveSK · Dec 24, 2013

I think his comment about water pump gear failures he's seen was more generic than just the AC sleds w/ deletes - basically saying that he feels the gear assembly needs to be consistently oiled in some capacity.

Given the short lifespan of mine after the delete was installed I don't think it was due to lubrication - those gears would have been saturated w/ enough oil for it to run for awhile and it was greased as well. It is more than likely some kind of unfortunate alignment/binding issue that caused it, or the bearing that runs the shaft piled up.

backcountryislife · Dec 24, 2013

Really sucks man... if you're positive you didn't double stack, I'm just straining to think of what would have caused this... that's really odd. I find it hard to believe that it was on the way out or I'd think you would have seen shavings on the pump end that goes where the delete does, and have aborted at that point.

Something happened when you installed... but what???

kidwoo · Jan 12, 2014

You ever figure out what was up?

Rixster · Jan 12, 2014

Where was the grease zerk installed? on the block off plate or on the bottom of the case where the banjo fitting was that oiled the shaft? My understanding is the a zerk in the block off plate is worthless. The grease can't get past the seal and into the gear. It needs to be installed in the bottom of the case where the oil went in originally.
I have zero experience with the bdx kit, I bought a block off plate from CPC and a zerk from the hardware store and installed it in the cases. I have many miles on mine with zero issues. I give it 2-4 shos of grease every 4-5 rides.

m8magicandmystery · Jan 12, 2014

I have the tube secured to the banjo that I add oil every once in a while through a female threaded barb with a male plug...BUT I think I may just put a zerk on the end of the tube into the threaded barb.

The reason is,( although im on my 4th year of the delete..haha) that the oil does get ingested as well as the engine suppying the lube is fine, but for piece of mind the grease will hang for 100 percent between the odd shot.

The grease to use is LUBRIPLATE ENGINE REBUILD GREASE imo..
The grease should never cavitate because as it warms it will liquefy and pool and coat the needed surfaces,then cool, then recoat etc etc and with the natural lubrication should be lots .

The mechanic indicating that he feels he assembly should be bathed in oil may be correct BUT remember that the stock Cat lubrication does not provide that and never did and because of the vacuum never could.

I think the stock BDX DELETE is fine installed as per directions and gets enough lube from the premix easily and that it is just a piece of mind adding what we feel are safeguards as long as we do not introduce an issue with the safe guards.

meaning throwing out the baby with the bathwater..

ScubaSteveSK · Jan 13, 2014

The zerk was installed in the bottom of the case where the old banjo fitting was. Everything was installed as per BDX instructions, and I have previously installed one on a different sled that has over 1,000 miles on it now.

When the case was opened up the worm gear on the crank was shredded, and the water pump shaft was bent.

As stated before I just want this to be more information for people considering a delete, and I know there are tons of guys running then with no issues. Chalk this one up to not so much. Personally, I'll be going back to oil injection on this sled.

On a different note - I cannot understand why Cat would make the worm gear on the crank out of brass and not steel. The gear on the water pump shaft should be sacrificial - on the Doos the drive gear is steel and the water pump gear is plastic. So if the drive gear goes (like mine) you either have to press the crank apart for the new gear, or get a complete refurb crank.

backcountryislife · Jan 13, 2014

Absolutely HATE stuff like this.

Obviously we've seen tons of positive results from this, and then we get something like this... and no real answer on WHY this happened. This just bugs the heck out of me. I hate anomalies without explanation. Btw, don't at all mean that "toward" you Scuba... just toward the situation, as being the guy with the issue, I'm sure you're in the same boat.

sunbather1969 · Jan 13, 2014

49 miles on my delete

way more responsive way crisper/cleaner , I was always saying damn I hate the smell of that redline rode 49 miles and I didn't get burning eyes or my gal saying you stink like 2 stroke cold smoke.

m8magicandmystery · Jan 13, 2014

ScubaSteveSK said:
When the case was opened up the worm gear on the crank was shredded, and the water pump shaft was bent.

I cannot understand why Cat would make the worm gear on the crank out of brass and not steel. The gear on the water pump shaft should be sacrificial - on the Doos the drive gear is steel and the water pump gear is plastic. So if the drive gear goes (like mine) you either have to press the crank apart for the new gear, or get a complete refurb crank.

well the brass gear shredding created the material to bind and bend the pump shaft OR something foreign got between the gears to cause the failure.We will never know unless you come across grindings that are neither gear.

I agree with ya one hundred percent on cats failure of durability overall,and I go one further, WTF to have to remove engine to fix/service..

Vertical-Extreme · Jan 21, 2016

Hey guys I know this is an old thread, but I have 2 questions.
1 how would you end up with 2 thrust washers in the engine? ( theres only one in the motor and the kit doesn't come with another,
And 2 has anyone just left the bango in the bottom of the motor and extended that line to somewhere accessible and put a zerk in it to pump a few squirts in once in a while? That seams easier to me than drilling all the rivets on the skid plate.

Hardass · Jan 22, 2016

I have done this on my turbo m8 and my mod 1000 with over 2000 miles on each i dont even put grease in any more. I hooked a tube to the banjo fitting and a zirk on the end of that up by the shock tower. Failure s of this kind are very uncommon.

Vertical-Extreme · Jan 22, 2016

Hardass said:
I have done this on my turbo m8 and my mod 1000 with over 2000 miles on each i dont even put grease in any more. I hooked a tube to the banjo fitting and a zirk on the end of that up by the shock tower. Failure s of this kind are very uncommon.

So you just left the existing banjo in place and hooked a zerk up? I ran my turbo with the oil delete for thousands of miles too but on that one I drilled and tapped the bottom of the case to allow premix in, but it doesn't look like anyone does it that way anymore.

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