2018/19 Snowy Range Snow Conditions
- Thread starter Himark
- Start date
Because "stay with the machines" (and wait for someone else to dig your sorry assets out of the bush) is not always a good plan.
If you have absolutely no clue where you are at, and your current location is of some safe regards, then maybe that IS a good plan. But what if your machines are in some deep dark hole that can't be seen from the air, and your tracks are long covered - or simply mixed with every other dumb sledder that's been out riding the last 2 weeks since the last snow - what good doo you see comin' from sitt'n tight?
Sure, how many times have S&R riders found sleds and the riders have walked off?
How many times have folks walked out and S&R was never alerted?
How many times has someone walked out to a trail and been found?
The times that I have heard it bad that someone left machines would have been if the machines were on a trail, and then they wondered downhill through the bush aimlessly. But if the sleds aint in some fairly obvious place ....
Blanket statements about "what to doo if" either should never be made/publicized, or at least be included with a disclaimer of "If'n y'all don't know which way is up, and your current location is survivable, then...."
It's not much different than all the talk on the weather channel scaring people from driving through 3" of water. They don't qualify it as "swift moving". My drive git's flooded on occasion (it's 1/2 mile long) and there have been times when folks are concerned that they might get carried away to the Mississippi Delta from 6" deep water standing in the middle of a field.
Blanket procedures have no place IM/HO.
... and in this case - apparently it took 3 days to find (4) 12' sleds and a fire - if they had a fire? I haven't seen anywhere saying that they had a fire?
[from the comfort of my office chair]
Options?
I would think that they could have stomped a sidehill up to the top. Let it sit overnight and tighten up, and with 4 guys, I sure would like to think that they could have gotten at least one sled topside the next day - even if they had to have 2 guys pulling ski's and one guy pushing from behind, and the last guy running the gas and keeping the sled up straight. Once that one is up, then re-asses and decide whether we fetch the next sled? Git 2 up and pool gas and send out? (if you have a clue which way to go...)
Quite possibly - if they took their time and stomped a very good / wide ramp out, and if it was cold - and I'm thinkin' that it was - that ramp would have likely gotten solid enough that they could have possibly just rode right up it? Shirley many of you have hit a hill one day, and came back to find that a 500 free-air could climb it the next day in those tracks?
The fact that they didn't just turn around tells me that they musta dropped off a cliff somewhere on the way that they figgered was not climbable from this side?
Could they have tied 4 spare starter ropes together and put 2 on each ski and pulled it up it?
4 guys sure seems like there should have been several options that 2 guys just doesn't have. That's 3 times more muscle to help pull or ???
A $15 compass would at least give you some idea which way to go, and keep you from walking in circles all day (rest of your life?) when no sun to guide by.
[/from the comfort of my office chair]
.
If you have absolutely no clue where you are at, and your current location is of some safe regards, then maybe that IS a good plan. But what if your machines are in some deep dark hole that can't be seen from the air, and your tracks are long covered - or simply mixed with every other dumb sledder that's been out riding the last 2 weeks since the last snow - what good doo you see comin' from sitt'n tight?
Sure, how many times have S&R riders found sleds and the riders have walked off?
How many times have folks walked out and S&R was never alerted?
How many times has someone walked out to a trail and been found?
The times that I have heard it bad that someone left machines would have been if the machines were on a trail, and then they wondered downhill through the bush aimlessly. But if the sleds aint in some fairly obvious place ....
Blanket statements about "what to doo if" either should never be made/publicized, or at least be included with a disclaimer of "If'n y'all don't know which way is up, and your current location is survivable, then...."
It's not much different than all the talk on the weather channel scaring people from driving through 3" of water. They don't qualify it as "swift moving". My drive git's flooded on occasion (it's 1/2 mile long) and there have been times when folks are concerned that they might get carried away to the Mississippi Delta from 6" deep water standing in the middle of a field.
Blanket procedures have no place IM/HO.
... and in this case - apparently it took 3 days to find (4) 12' sleds and a fire - if they had a fire? I haven't seen anywhere saying that they had a fire?
[from the comfort of my office chair]
Options?
I would think that they could have stomped a sidehill up to the top. Let it sit overnight and tighten up, and with 4 guys, I sure would like to think that they could have gotten at least one sled topside the next day - even if they had to have 2 guys pulling ski's and one guy pushing from behind, and the last guy running the gas and keeping the sled up straight. Once that one is up, then re-asses and decide whether we fetch the next sled? Git 2 up and pool gas and send out? (if you have a clue which way to go...)
Quite possibly - if they took their time and stomped a very good / wide ramp out, and if it was cold - and I'm thinkin' that it was - that ramp would have likely gotten solid enough that they could have possibly just rode right up it? Shirley many of you have hit a hill one day, and came back to find that a 500 free-air could climb it the next day in those tracks?
The fact that they didn't just turn around tells me that they musta dropped off a cliff somewhere on the way that they figgered was not climbable from this side?
Could they have tied 4 spare starter ropes together and put 2 on each ski and pulled it up it?
4 guys sure seems like there should have been several options that 2 guys just doesn't have. That's 3 times more muscle to help pull or ???
A $15 compass would at least give you some idea which way to go, and keep you from walking in circles all day (rest of your life?) when no sun to guide by.
[/from the comfort of my office chair]
.
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Seem like you have all the answers from your office chair. We have not heard a first hand story. Maybe the sleds are all damaged and not running. I've been in the snowies in a whiteout not fun. I've heard bottom less snow from s and r. Being stranded late in the day I will guess here and say they didn't have a lot of gas left in there tanks. That means energy also to pull and tug.
Just seen on facebook that some volunteers got 3 of the sleds out. Fourth sled stayed due to no tether. The snow has set up and allowed the sleds to be recovered. Ox you are making a lot of assumptions in your post. All that matters is that these guys were found safe. I am just as eager to hear the whole story just like everybody else following this story. I will try and post the story from Facebook.
Yes, I am.
So are about anyone else reading about it, and all we can doo is guess amongst ourselves with what info we have. They got out a week and a half ago.
But pretty sure that dooing something is usually better than dooing nothing.
I just posted what comes to my mind first. Giving some ideas if someone else finds themselves in a similar situation to think "what can I doo to help myself?".
The guy on The Weather Channel was mentioned earlier.
I have all of those eppisodes recorded on my DVR, and I'm pretty sure that the theme of his show is "What can I doo for myself, with what I have on hand?".
I don't recall him ever saying to sit on your assets and wait for someone else to find you. And if your lucky, it could happen in your lifetime even. Hey - bonus!
I am not trying to be an ass, but I understand that is how debating this comes off.
And let me tell yuh, when your in that predicament, and your sitting there .. waiting .. you go over this stuff time and aggin in your own head, and after about 20 times with your chum(s) and after that - it just gits quiet.
"What did we doo wrong to git here?"
"Did we... ?"
"Pretty sure that we ...."
"Call 911" gets the cops to the scene of the crime.
If you want to prevent the crime from happening - you need to act for yourself.
This isn't much different.
.
So are about anyone else reading about it, and all we can doo is guess amongst ourselves with what info we have. They got out a week and a half ago.
But pretty sure that dooing something is usually better than dooing nothing.
I just posted what comes to my mind first. Giving some ideas if someone else finds themselves in a similar situation to think "what can I doo to help myself?".
The guy on The Weather Channel was mentioned earlier.
I have all of those eppisodes recorded on my DVR, and I'm pretty sure that the theme of his show is "What can I doo for myself, with what I have on hand?".
I don't recall him ever saying to sit on your assets and wait for someone else to find you. And if your lucky, it could happen in your lifetime even. Hey - bonus!
I am not trying to be an ass, but I understand that is how debating this comes off.
And let me tell yuh, when your in that predicament, and your sitting there .. waiting .. you go over this stuff time and aggin in your own head, and after about 20 times with your chum(s) and after that - it just gits quiet.
"What did we doo wrong to git here?"
"Did we... ?"
"Pretty sure that we ...."
"Call 911" gets the cops to the scene of the crime.
If you want to prevent the crime from happening - you need to act for yourself.
This isn't much different.
.
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All four sleds were recovered Saturday afternoon, I rode one of them out. I cannot believe how far down this canyon they broke trail, unbelievable! They were actually on the hiking trail south and east of Crater Lake, seen where they dropped in!? Not sure on the decision making on any of it?
BTW OX- they had several fires, when the chopper spotted them Christmas day, the middle aged gentleman ran up the face of the mountain and lit a huge Spruce tree ablaze, survival mode kicked in for sure!
thank you all for your efforts in finding and helping the helpless at that time. im sure looking back there will be a lot of "what if" and "should have". that is the main reason I would like to hear the whole story and then evaluate and put into my notebook of education so I don't have to pay that tuition. thanks to all that helped in the rescue of people and sleds. again respect that mountain and its weather
Thank you, and your friends for getting the sleds out. Looks like some good planning and good weather made it possible. One question... Were the sleds out of fuel?
I can relate to what they did, and why they kept going. How many times have we been riding off trail, in some bad conditions, and made it through some nasty spots and just kept trying to work your way down and try to find a clearing or a way out. Most of the time it all works out... but sometimes it only gets worse! Ive been in that situation a few times, twice we made it out at 2:00am, once we spent 36 hours on the mountain and snow shoed out. Lots of things depend on the weather and snow conditions, how well you know the area, and the level of experience of the riders.
I learned a lot of those mistakes and dont take it to those extremes anymore.
Had similar experiences, not 36 hours by any means, but enough to teach me one basic...
If you don't know where you are, explore uphill, not downhill.
Yes the sleds were out of fuel, not ran dry but 0 bars on the display. We had enough to make it up to our group a half mile up where we fueled them up.
All four sleds were recovered Saturday afternoon, I rode one of them out. I cannot believe how far down this canyon they broke trail, unbelievable! They were actually on the hiking trail south and east of Crater Lake, seen where they dropped in!Not sure on the decision making on any of it?
Not sure on the decision making on any of it?
Did ya get to keep the sled?
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I'm glad to hear this story ended so well. Thinking about the scenario, I definitely couldn't argue with their decision to stay put. There are seldom any cut and dry answers, but the "move or stay put" decision is often what makes or breaks things. I love "Survivorman" from several years back: it's fun to watch and full of simple tips, survival anecdotes, and a running commentary on the thinking behind his decisions. Obviously there's only so much you can learn from a book or TV show, but especially combined with time in the wilderness, they help you build a survival mentality. In many cases, it's that mentality that's the difference between life and death, more so than the scenario or equipment on hand.
In this case, I think staying put made sense. In bad weather, things often lean that way. Your ability to successfully navigate is massively impaired, and your chances of getting lost or injured skyrocket. If you're completely exposed, or maybe in an avalanche zone, that might force things the other way. Generally though, I think at night in bad weather, I'm going to stay with my sled until daylight and better weather. But again, for every general recommendation in survival, you can probably find an exception. There are always coulda, shoulda, wouldas in survival scenarios (especially in cases where someone pushes into terrain they shouldn't), but if everyone comes out unscathed, it's probably because they started using their head at some point.
In this case, I think staying put made sense. In bad weather, things often lean that way. Your ability to successfully navigate is massively impaired, and your chances of getting lost or injured skyrocket. If you're completely exposed, or maybe in an avalanche zone, that might force things the other way. Generally though, I think at night in bad weather, I'm going to stay with my sled until daylight and better weather. But again, for every general recommendation in survival, you can probably find an exception. There are always coulda, shoulda, wouldas in survival scenarios (especially in cases where someone pushes into terrain they shouldn't), but if everyone comes out unscathed, it's probably because they started using their head at some point.
Not the first time or the last it will happen. Our group was in the Madres two years ago and ran across a group of out of staters that got separated, had no radios, did not know the terrain at all, and were riding in areas beyond their abilities. The oldest gentleman (60s) in their group had been missing almost the entire day and they had no idea where he was at. We split up and made some in their group return to their truck, so we weren't searching for more people, and luckily found the guy down in a steep drainage. Ended up having to ride his sled out for him in the dark. Last year we had to lead another group up in Rock Creek near Togwotee, they didn't have a GPS and were lost, stupid.
Sleds are way more capable of going places that you wouldn't even think of going 10 years ago, and quite frankly people aren't prepared with using basic common sense. I'm sure these guys will realize a good rule of thumb in the backcountry is to never explore downhill unless you damn well know you have a way to get out.
Sleds are way more capable of going places that you wouldn't even think of going 10 years ago, and quite frankly people aren't prepared with using basic common sense. I'm sure these guys will realize a good rule of thumb in the backcountry is to never explore downhill unless you damn well know you have a way to get out.
2 years ago we helped an IN-STATER get back to his group late in the day. He was in a drainage SW of seven fools, and had been split from his group for 3+ hours. We helped him back to the trail and to his group, ended up being like 7 miles to them. A few weeks later a group spent the night out and were found by SAR. Saw a picture of the group, same guy.
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