Skidoo 850 belt issues - alignment out of spec

bcpowder · Mar 8, 2017

I have a new 850, and i have blown 3 belts in 400 km. I am very diligent in keeping my clutch compartment clean, heat cycling belts for break in, and generally keeping a close eye on the health of my clutches and belts. BRP has told me that there is nothing they can find wrong with my sled, so i took it upon myself to get a hold of the service manual do so simple checks my self.

As it turns out, my offset is out of spec (secondary is too far out by 2.1mm, My x dim = 43.2mm, spec = 41.1, +/- 1.8mm), and the parallelism is only +1.4mm across the primary (skidoo specs the parallelism at 0 load to be at +3mm +/- .93mm across the primary to account for twist under full load). Currently I am unaware of a way to adjust the offset by shifting the secondary further in on the jackshaft as mine requires; however, I have seen shim kits to bring it out. BRP needs to address this issue and the only way to force them to do that is to put the spot light on it. I encourage all of you that are having issues as described above to check this spec on your own. Please add to this thread if you find out that your sled is also out of spec.

Check this link out for some pictures of the manual

http://www.snowandmud.com/ski-doo-rev-gen-4-a/111674-skidoo-850-etec-offset-exploding-belts.html

For a simple video on how to measure this spec check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAHiyqZ1J98

Blown Belt Problems clutch Issues Ski doo 850 E-tec etec E tec Skidoo Ski-doo clutchi

Bobbysky · Mar 9, 2017

Interesting. Hopefully it's something easy to fix these belts because right now my dealer and BRP is saying there isn't a problem, but forum posts contradicts that pretty heavily. Personally I think the secondary should be floated, but I'm no clutch guru. I think everyone needs to call the BRP phone number and complain about these belt issues so we can get a true fix, not a new belt or fan blades on the back of the primary.

salmonbum · Mar 9, 2017

I have plans to look into a kit for the 850. Is the secondary the same as XM? The xp calls for 36.5mm but magic number is 40-41mm and my shim kit brings it right in. In 2012 Doo lengthened the shaft 3mm on summits and free rides that's why blown belts stopped. I think the reason the 850 has the secondary too far out is because they actually moved the motor inboard. Slotting motor mounts on XP and moving motor in 3mm did the same as shimming secondary out.

boondocker99 · Mar 9, 2017

bcpowder said:
I have a new 850, and i have blown 3 belts in 400 km. I am very diligent in keeping my clutch compartment clean, heat cycling belts for break in, and generally keeping a close eye on the health of my clutches and belts. BRP has told me that there is nothing they can find wrong with my sled, so i took it upon myself to get a hold of the service manual do so simple checks my self.

As it turns out, my offset is out of spec (secondary is too far out by 2.1mm, My x dim = 43.2mm, spec = 41.1, +/- 1.8mm), and the parallelism is only +1.4mm across the primary (skidoo specs the parallelism at 0 load to be at +3mm +/- .93mm across the primary to account for twist under full load). Currently I am unaware of a way to adjust the offset by shifting the secondary further in on the jackshaft as mine requires; however, I have seen shim kits to bring it out. BRP needs to address this issue and the only way to force them to do that is to put the spot light on it. I encourage all of you that are having issues as described above to check this spec on your own. Please add to this thread if you find out that your sled is also out of spec.

Check this link out for some pictures of the manual

http://www.snowandmud.com/ski-doo-rev-gen-4-a/111674-skidoo-850-etec-offset-exploding-belts.html

For a simple video on how to measure this spec check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAHiyqZ1J98

Blown Belt Problems clutch Issues Ski doo 850 E-tec etec E tec Skidoo Ski-doo clutchi

Have you provided this info to your dealer ande Skidoo asking them how they can claim it's within spec when it clearly is not within the documented specifications? Is your dealer service dept trustworthy? Seems like they never actually checked it or lied to Skidoo about the results...

Devilmanak · Mar 9, 2017

It is a huge cover up on BRP's part. They have a problem and they do not want to pay to fix it. (Or do not know how to fix it.) I have been babying my sleds this year, I have stretched 3 Doo belts beyond deflection adjustment and blown a Gates, all in less than 1000 miles between 2 sleds. (And I ran the stretched belts for 100 miles each, out of adjustment, just so I wouldn't have to pay for new ones. The performance was horrible, my Cat buddy rode it and asked why it ran like crap.) So less than 200 miles per belt until they are shot. I sold my 16 154 with the original belt, still good, at 1400 miles and I didn't stop to cool that sled down once.
I ride with a couple of Poo guys regularly, when we stop I boil snow off my clutches, they can touch theirs with bare hands.
I have heard from people that know, that BRP is asking BRP employees and BRP Pro riders to DENY that they are blowing DOZENS of belts.
Seeing as how the 2018 models have different primary and secondary part numbers, they know there is a major problem. Updates are one thing, major issues are another, Doo needs to take care of us here. I have told my dealer that I will not be buying another Doo unless BRP takes care of all of our 2017 turds that we paid good money for. I have purchased 12 new 800 Doos since 2013, if BRP cares so little for it's loyal customers then I have no problem sending my money to the Kitty factory. (After riding the 2018 Meowmachine, it is good.)
Rant over. Hashtag I paid good money for a 2017 Skidoo Gen 4 850 Lemon.

s.e.xtreme · Mar 9, 2017

bcpowder said:
I have a new 850, and i have blown 3 belts in 400 km. I am very diligent in keeping my clutch compartment clean, heat cycling belts for break in, and generally keeping a close eye on the health of my clutches and belts. BRP has told me that there is nothing they can find wrong with my sled, so i took it upon myself to get a hold of the service manual do so simple checks my self.

As it turns out, my offset is out of spec (secondary is too far out by 2.1mm, My x dim = 43.2mm, spec = 41.1, +/- 1.8mm), and the parallelism is only +1.4mm across the primary (skidoo specs the parallelism at 0 load to be at +3mm +/- .93mm across the primary to account for twist under full load). Currently I am unaware of a way to adjust the offset by shifting the secondary further in on the jackshaft as mine requires; however, I have seen shim kits to bring it out. BRP needs to address this issue and the only way to force them to do that is to put the spot light on it. I encourage all of you that are having issues as described above to check this spec on your own. Please add to this thread if you find out that your sled is also out of spec.

Check this link out for some pictures of the manual

http://www.snowandmud.com/ski-doo-rev-gen-4-a/111674-skidoo-850-etec-offset-exploding-belts.html

For a simple video on how to measure this spec check this video out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAHiyqZ1J98

Blown Belt Problems clutch Issues Ski doo 850 E-tec etec E tec Skidoo Ski-doo clutchi

What manual is this and what page?

Wapow · Mar 9, 2017

Devilmanak said:
It is a huge cover up on BRP's part. They have a problem and they do not want to pay to fix it. (Or do not know how to fix it.) I have been babying my sleds this year, I have stretched 3 Doo belts beyond deflection adjustment and blown a Gates, all in less than 1000 miles between 2 sleds. (And I ran the stretched belts for 100 miles each, out of adjustment, just so I wouldn't have to pay for new ones. The performance was horrible, my Cat buddy rode it and asked why it ran like crap.) So less than 200 miles per belt until they are shot. I sold my 16 154 with the original belt, still good, at 1400 miles and I didn't stop to cool that sled down once.
I ride with a couple of Poo guys regularly, when we stop I boil snow off my clutches, they can touch theirs with bare hands.
I have heard from people that know, that BRP is asking BRP employees and BRP Pro riders to DENY that they are blowing DOZENS of belts.
Seeing as how the 2018 models have different primary and secondary part numbers, they know there is a major problem. Updates are one thing, major issues are another, Doo needs to take care of us here. I have told my dealer that I will not be buying another Doo unless BRP takes care of all of our 2017 turds that we paid good money for. I have purchased 12 new 800 Doos since 2013, if BRP cares so little for it's loyal customers then I have no problem sending my money to the Kitty factory. (After riding the 2018 Meowmachine, it is good.)
Rant over. Hashtag I paid good money for a 2017 Skidoo Gen 4 850 Lemon.

Agreed that's totally unacceptable. Seems like some guys who ride really hard aren't having problems and others are, so it's probably sled specific. Has your dealer stopped trying to fix it?

Bobbysky · Mar 9, 2017

My dealer has warrantied three belts for me as of now, I'm at 785 miles. But according to friends that bought at other dealers BRP is denying belts as of now. Also CodyMcnolty's instagram live feed, as of tonight, says that they are having heat and belt issues and shows how he pulled a cord and then runs them backwards to get some more miles out of them. I absolutely love this sled but BRP denying that there is a problem is pretty shady, everyone knows it's happening and people that are not having a problem are not riding them hard enough. PLEASE STEP UP BRP

Sharp · Mar 10, 2017

Some people don't think there's a problem and blame forums for blowing up the issue. I've seen three belts blown and a cracked bulkhead out of the three guys that I ride with that bought new 850s. I would be surprised if skidoo or any manufacturer viewed forum site and took them serious. You would need to get people to call there dealers a complain to them or stop buying a product that doesn't fit your needs or likes.

salmonbum · Mar 10, 2017

The dealers hands are tied with doing anything about alignment. Doo covers their *** by giving themselves a TON of tolerance. If the sled falls into the unrealistic numbers Doo puts in service manual, then there is nothing they can do if they wanna get paid. This is teh XP all over again.

I did some thinking on this last night. I didn't buy a Gen for this season because I didn't wanna get kicked in the balls like I did when I bought the early XP. With that, I do not have a sled to tear apart or re-engineer for them. So the problem with XP was the secondary was IN too far by 3mm. My shim kit fixes that. Pretty easy. As stated above, the 2012 Summit's shaft grew by 3mm (kinda like my kits are 3mm since 2009) and belt issues almost went away. HOWEVER, all short tracks XP\XS still run the shorter shaft. This Gen 4 sounds to have the secondary OUT too far, possibly by 1.5mm. Doo moved the motor IN on the 4 to centralize mass. If they still use a QRS and its the same from last XM's, then if you could find a secondary from a XP or XS this would move the secondary in 3mm. Get a 1.5mm shim kit and you will be right where you need to be. I will dig into part numbers and see what I can find out later when I have a free minute fropm saving an Automotive's comany's *** today.

nickbeann · Mar 10, 2017

4 belts , 800 miles
Belts are getting taken out on the 850's PERIOD
Does not matter if its a summit or a trail machine!
Anyone who is getting miles on their belts is babying their sled or riding straight trail.
Email brp and maybe something will happen!
Dealers hands are tied.

boondocker99 · Mar 10, 2017

There is clearly and issue on *some* sleds but there are a lot without issues so the question is what is different? With the OPs info it's starting to sounds like quality control/consistency issues with the E mod or engine mounts causing the alignment to be off. Fix the alignment and the problem will likely be fixed.

All sleds could use better venting and calibration but not all are blowing belts in 50-200 miles of hard riding. Feel bad for those that got problem sleds!

boondocker99 · Mar 10, 2017

salmonbum said:
The dealers hands are tied with doing anything about alignment. Doo covers their *** by giving themselves a TON of tolerance. If the sled falls into the unrealistic numbers Doo puts in service manual, then there is nothing they can do if they wanna get paid. This is teh XP all over again.

I did some thinking on this last night. I didn't buy a Gen for this season because I didn't wanna get kicked in the balls like I did when I bought the early XP. With that, I do not have a sled to tear apart or re-engineer for them. So the problem with XP was the secondary was IN too far by 3mm. My shim kit fixes that. Pretty easy. As stated above, the 2012 Summit's shaft grew by 3mm (kinda like my kits are 3mm since 2009) and belt issues almost went away. HOWEVER, all short tracks XP\XS still run the shorter shaft. This Gen 4 sounds to have the secondary OUT too far, possibly by 1.5mm. Doo moved the motor IN on the 4 to centralize mass. If they still use a QRS and its the same from last XM's, then if you could find a secondary from a XP or XS this would move the secondary in 3mm. Get a 1.5mm shim kit and you will be right where you need to be. I will dig into part numbers and see what I can find out later when I have a free minute fropm saving an Automotive's comany's *** today.

Good post but the thing I don't get is that the OP found his to be "out of spec" per the manual so how can the dealer or BRP say that is fine. It's there own service manual, it's clearly out of spec, and blowing belts! I'd be contacting a lawyer and staring a lemon law process if I had one of these machines and BRP was not doing anything about it. keep those belt recipients and take pictures with odometer readings...

Chadly · Mar 10, 2017

boondocker99 said:
There is clearly and issue on *some* sleds but there are a lot without issues so the question is what is different? With the OPs info it's starting to sounds like quality control/consistency issues with the E mod or engine mounts causing the alignment to be off. Fix the alignment and the problem will likely be fixed.

All sleds could use better venting and calibration but not all are blowing belts in 50-200 miles of hard riding. Feel bad for those that got problem sleds!

I don't think there are problematic sleds. I think it's all how you ride and the conditions you are riding in.

Chadly · Mar 10, 2017

boondocker99 said:
Good post but the thing I don't get is that the OP found his to be "out of spec" per the manual so how can the dealer or BRP say that is fine. It's there own service manual, it's clearly out of spec, and blowing belts! I'd be contacting a lawyer and staring a lemon law process if I had one of these machines and BRP was not doing anything about it. keep those belt recipients and take pictures with odometer readings...

The American Dream... Threaten with lawyers. Could I possibly convince you to move to Canada and ride Arctic Cat?

Wapow · Mar 10, 2017

boondocker99 said:
Good post but the thing I don't get is that the OP found his to be "out of spec" per the manual so how can the dealer or BRP say that is fine. It's there own service manual, it's clearly out of spec, and blowing belts! I'd be contacting a lawyer and staring a lemon law process if I had one of these machines and BRP was not doing anything about it. keep those belt recipients and take pictures with odometer readings...

I'd start by taking it to another dealer. They need to confirm your clutches are working perfectly and then go from there. It's fairly easy too, because they should be able to swap a Pdrive from a good running machine to yours, to see if that makes a difference. If not, swap the secondary, and then keep eliminating likely issues until it's solved. It's not rocket science, but there are a lot of crappy dealers out there.

salmonbum · Mar 10, 2017

BRP is setting their own tolerances on what THEY think is acceptable. To me, +/-1.8mm is a mile!!! I am an automotive engineer and I deal with tolerances of +/-.005" all day long. With a wide open variable they give themselves, the sled will always be to print, even if its eating belts or not. When you atke your sled to dealer for blowing belts, they will check alignment and if it falls into the BRP Spec (that they gave themselves), there is no warranty work the dealer can do to get paid if it involves making an alignment adjustment. As for as BRP is concerned, its good.

I can tolerance a part to work as intended, and if someone I contract to build it doesn't hold to the print, then that part is no good. On the other hand, I can give myself a wide open tolerance that could be out of the acceptable limit of the part functioning . But if the customer signs off that the print\tolerance is good I am covered from your nasty Lawyer even if the part doesn't work. I build the part to print.... part is good. But for clarification, I do not operate like that

But from what I saw from the XP and now the Gen 4, BRP does.

cortez · Mar 11, 2017

Surprised you bought a '17 850 when you knew so many people were having this problem phippsy.. ****ty deal you're now having this problem too but I'm curious why some have these issues and others are nearly twice your mileage on the original belt - I've ridden with both groups and don't see that it comes down to riding style.

Either way I think I'll wait to see if '18 is any better.

White Rad · Mar 11, 2017

Wish I could of checked my alignment specs before my motor got pulled. I'm at 10 belts all out of pocket. Tried to get my dealer to check alignment early on and they said they didn't have the new alignment bar yet and that it didn't matter because nothing is adjustable. This is a great post everyone with belt issues should carefully check their sled against the specs and if it's truly out BRP needs to do something other than make more $ of us by selling more belts. I got so paranoid I started carrying 6 belts for an epic deep day ...

rulonjj · Mar 11, 2017

I have to wonder how damn hard would it be for doo to go to a secondary that floats 3mm. The alignment issues would go away and it'd be a lot easier to make changes to the clutch.

Skidoo 850 belt issues - alignment out of spec

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