Axys Suspension Setup Thread

JJ_0909 · Dec 30, 2015

I know its been discussed in previous threads but I'd like to have one place where we can post our suspension setups.

Include track lug/length, suspension type and if you've done any custom work...

For me...

163" 2.6" Stocker

IFS: 36" Z-Broz setup set in "wide" position. 1/2" shorter front shocks. Revalved for stiffer compression tune. 2 turns of preload. Spindle slight positive camber. (less than 1/2 degree)

FTS: Factory Spec

RTS: Factory Spec

Sway bar attached.

Sled is pretty good in untracked soft snow but a bit of a handful in tracked out/off camber harder snow (as expected). Considering dual rate front springs. I often find myself "over riding" the sled.

Also due to ski lift, considering a firmer compression tune and additional preload on the rear track shock and removing preload from the FTS.

mountainhorse · Dec 30, 2015

Great Idea for a thread.

Would also be great if you could post up your exact shock adjustment... how many "clicks", what psi (float), what springs (type and rating), what is your front ride height measured from fixed point (say front lower pivot-shaft stud), Toe setting, and for those with adjustable ball joints... camber setting.

Also important, your weight, kind of snow you ride and things you like to ride for this setup (trees, climbing etc) .

As a side note JJ... firmer RTS compression valving will not change the overall amount of ski lift... just the rate at which it gets there. Ideally you want the shock to be valved to be compliant but not "soft" for your weight, riding style and terrain.

I've helped some readers that have overly stiffened the compression or stiffer RTS springs/float-pressure on their sleds in hopes of controlling ski lift... only to find that they got a rough ride and were often bucked off the machine when they hit an obstacle.

You are on the right path with playing with your "transfer" by adjusting FTS/RTS bias.

The other thing is that the factory WE mineral oil shock fluid wears out very quickly from hard use... from TRS's recommendation... a full synthetic, high quality shock oil... like Raptor RPS, or Amsoil Shock Therapy 5w can go a long way to giving more consistent performance through the season.

If you are a climber, and truly want control on your climbs with minimal ski lift... coupling the skid is your best option for a combination of control and compliance to remain in control on challenging terrain. You have great options with the KMOD, Timbersled, ZBroz KISS, SPG-ARC systems to have the control with compliance to terrain variation while climbing... but the ability to be more "playful" or maneuverable with the sled in technical situations or creek crossings where you want to be able to get the nose up with a simple adjustment.

If you are a "Hucker" then you fit into a very narrow percentage of riders and you will need to figure out what is best for you... in terms of control and keeping your sled from breaking... You will need to find a balance you can live with or have an adjustable setup that you know how to change in the field.

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JJ_0909 · Dec 30, 2015

mountainhorse said:
As a side note JJ... firmer RTS compression valving will not change the overall amount of ski lift... just the rate at which it gets there. Ideally you want the shock to be valved to be compliant but not "soft" for your weight, riding style and terrain.

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I should have been clearer. I really want to stiffen compression up to keep me from blowing through travel as quickly. Its a bit overly linear which compression won't alone fix but its a band-aide no?

Wonder how most guys are setting up their front suspension with respect to the narrower front end. I'm getting an incredible amount of dive in off camber situations making it very difficult to keep the sled pointed the right way when not on edge in harder conditions.

Also, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

mountainhorse · Dec 30, 2015

A compression adjustable shock, that has a 5/8" shaft.... which will displace more fluid in the shock and move it through the "clicker" mechanism... can give you on the fly adjustments.... The Raptors are great for that and the new Quick adjust on the fox as well.

A piggyback-clicker shock, with just the 1/2" shaft will have less adjustment range than the larger shaft shocks.

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JJ_0909 · Dec 30, 2015

mountainhorse said:
A compression adjustable shock, that has a 5/8" shaft.... which will displace more fluid in the shock and move it through the "clicker" mechanism... can give you on the fly adjustments.... The Raptors are great for that and the new Quick adjust on the fox as well.

A piggyback-clicker shock, with just the 1/2" shaft will have less adjustment range than the larger shaft shocks.

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True. Additional compression adjust would be good. Though I don't believe moving additional fluid is all that big of a deal in mountain riding. Fade isn't as much of an issue as it would be in say a snowcross setting.

I think the future of suspension may bring forth electromagnetics that can automatically adjust volume (if air sprung) and compression/rebound based on what the terrain is doing. It could be game changing for how we ride. Especially in situations like I described (off camber harder conditions...your inside shock could significantly soften, outside track significantly firm up all based off a data acquisition box on the sled that looks at pitch, snow condition direction, sled roll etc- could even have mutliple modes depending on what the snow was doing that day). /pipedream

I have an extensive background in mountain bike suspension. Different world though...

mountainhorse · Dec 30, 2015

The "game-changers" are coming fast in the Mtn. Bike shock world. There are bluetooth shocks... electronic controls, electro-viscous fluids etc etc... but I digress...

I agree... fade is generally not an issue in mountain shocks... and is not the reason I have for more fluid movement.

In order for the "clicker" to have an affect...it needs to have fluid moving past it in order to control that fluid... the more fluid moving... the more you are able to impart an affect on that fluid... and have better "resolution" with that compression adjustment.

For the life of me... I cant figure why Polaris goes to all the effort of making a piggyback option shock for the new sleds but does the WE Piggybacks with the 1/2" shafts....with the only exception the Assaults. The cost difference for the OEM for the two different shafts would be negligible at time of mass production... it not necessary to have the "needle" feature to get compression adjustment... that needle is a tuning device to limit end of travel bottom resistance. The Assault piggyback WE's are the only ones with the "Needle feature"

One other thing to consider with high end shocks if they have a rebound adjuster.... That "rebound" adjuster is in reality a piston valving bypass needle valve... it affects BOTH compression and rebound since there is no check valve in the circuit... at least not on any sled shock offering I've seen in recent years. SO... when you adjust the rebound.... you also affect the compression. Going softer on rebound will soften the compression... and vice/versa.

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mountainhorse · Dec 30, 2015

Compressing the uphill shock on a sidehill is also not great for overall control.

Heres a previous post that also applies to this discussion of Suspension setup. Most of the really good riders (better than me... I'm an average rider)... will already know this.

Here is my take on the subject. (copy/paste from other thread)

MY OPINION>>> there are others that ride without that prefer it... Which is OK too.

This is IMO...

Here are some things that I learned that worked for me and made for less effort riding for my style of riding. I was excited to to learn this and thought I would pass on an experience that made my riding better. There are many better riders out there than me... many of them have a different style all their own that works very well for them.

Keep it. On the Pro... definitely.

Here is an adaptation of a post I put up a while back.

Before you may get all riled up… I do believe that you can get good performance from the sleds without a swaybar… but your shocks will need to be re-sprung/valved. I've had a PRO with my dialed in $1500 Fox EVOL-X's on it and I did like it... but that is an expensive shock with a lot of time in the 5 different adjustments those shocks have.

This conversation is for the "Average Joe/Josephine" that does not have upgraded shocks or years of riding experience.

With the PRO Chassis ... With stock shocks/springs...with the sway bar out... for the most part…. you are really not getting the sled "on edge" even though it may feel like it...You are compressing the front shock and flexing the track. You are "squatting" the front end and removing available travel.

Many people have this misconception…. I Did too (until I worked with Dan Adams on my technique)

When the shock is collapsed, there is little travel remaining to deal with rough terrain or crusty snow. Even more evident on a steep side hill when the body panels are riding deep in the snow and want to push you back down the hill…much less evident on a PRO RMK than the Previous models.... usually resulting in a roll over or requiring that you turn down the hill and going, usually, where you don’t want to go.

Truly getting the sled "on edge" DOES require more effort (to learn) and balance... It takes a practice to get comfortable with it... but the efforts over a few days of riding will, IMO, transform your riding. Once you "get it"... there is not much effort to the tequnique and you don't get tired on long sidehills.

With the proper swaybar OR new shocks that are valved and sprung for no swaybar... the sled will get up on edge well and hold a line without the shock collapsing on a steep sidehill... and kept the travel in the shock to deal with terrain and not get bucked back down the hill...Nor buck you off when doing powder carves in a meadow.

Yes, you can throw it around easier without the swaybar out...BUT... this is a dead-giveaway that you need to work on your riding techniques...In most cases.

I had the same misunderstanding and needed to work on it. This is the key to better riding on a Mountain sled IMO.

Cranking up the preload on the spring or putting more air in the shock is not the answer either as you can get into coil bind or the air-shock does not want to compress fully and gets super stiff… especially in the standard floats. Plus… this throws off the engineered balance of the sled as it increases the ride heigh of the sled... though some people adapt to it.

In the end... it boils down to practice... get into a packed out field and spend the day getting and keeping your sled on edge in left and right turns. Throttle control is important here too. Sometimes, like for me, it took an hour of literally walking next to my sled with it on edge and controlling the throttle, skis and balance of the sled before I could ride it that way.

You should be able to ride on one ski indefinitely, with little effort, once you have perfected the technique.

My 2 cents.

Click to expand...

Have a look at this video...

Rasmussen at :50 and Whelpton at 1:39

You can see that the sled is on edge as compared to having the shock compressed on that side... This allows the shock to still have travel to do work if you hit irregularities in the snow.

It is more work to learn it... but worth it IMO.

Have a look at this one...

at :28 , :48 1:13, 1:18 ... you will see that on the extreme sidehill... the uphill front suspension is basically still fully extended... the sled is on Edge... not "squatted" on that side.

THEN, FINALLY HAVE A LOOK AT THIS ONE...

Bret, at 1:54 seconds... "bumps" the tree on an extreme sidehill... the shock/suspension absorb the impact and then extends agian... If the shock was "squatted" on that side.. there would have been effectively no travel left to deal with that obstacle and he would have been bucked down the hill.... Pretty amazing move!! :face-icon-small-sho

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Click to expand...

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zblink · Mar 15, 2016

mountainhorse said:
The "game-changers" are coming fast in the Mtn. Bike shock world. There are bluetooth shocks... electronic controls, electro-viscous fluids etc etc... but I digress...

I agree... fade is generally not an issue in mountain shocks... and is not the reason I have for more fluid movement.

In order for the "clicker" to have an affect...it needs to have fluid moving past it in order to control that fluid... the more fluid moving... the more you are able to impart an affect on that fluid... and have better "resolution" with that compression adjustment.

For the life of me... I cant figure why Polaris goes to all the effort of making a piggyback option shock for the new sleds but does the WE Piggybacks with the 1/2" shafts....with the only exception the Assaults. The cost difference for the OEM for the two different shafts would be negligible at time of mass production... it not necessary to have the "needle" feature to get compression adjustment... that needle is a tuning device to limit end of travel bottom resistance. The Assault piggyback WE's are the only ones with the "Needle feature"

One other thing to consider with high end shocks if they have a rebound adjuster.... That "rebound" adjuster is in reality a piston valving bypass needle valve... it affects BOTH compression and rebound since there is no check valve in the circuit... at least not on any sled shock offering I've seen in recent years. SO... when you adjust the rebound.... you also affect the compression. Going softer on rebound will soften the compression... and vice/versa.

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Yes you are right that you should be aware with compression or rebound settings effecting each other when the adjustment is made but if the damper is 'good' there should be no effect.
The 5 runs were ran back to back so take into account that the damper skin temp rose from 48 deg C to 58 deg C so there will be a bit of effect there due to the different viscosity.

The runs were rebound changes only (clicks out, rebound being taken away or sped up)

Run 1: 0 clicks out
Run 2: 5 clicks out
Run 3: 10 clicks out
Run 4: 15 clicks out
Run 5: 20 clicks out (stop)

You can see the minimal to no effect of compression change with the rebound adjustment and for the most part the click increments seem to be quite uniform until runs 4 and 5 where it went from 15 clicks out to the stop and not necessarily 20 clicks out

I also attached the damper at two different temperatures so you can see the effect and drift or shift due to the hotter oil and therefore viscosity change. The reason it is not in the usual line format is because i did not unscrew the air sleeve so there for there is some spring force present and the hysteresis between compression and rebound would increase slightly with temperature because the pressure would increase slightly

* air sleeves still screwed on and not a damper only test. the air pressures in both chambers were set to 0 psig or 1 atm. I did not connect anything to main and evol schrader valves and record pressures at the same time to then calculate those effects.

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Axys Suspension Setup Thread

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