Long Rod Motor/Indy Dan

RKT · Aug 3, 2013

LoudHandle said:
They are not stories, they are fact from sources I trust. They may well be the exception, but I will leave that decision to the customer.

We remember your last Factual story of how one of my sponsored riders lost a whole season due to my kit.. This was later PROVED (By you. no-less.) to be a complete fabrication and mis-representation on your part...

This latest group of "facts" .. well...???

Think about it.. If you buy a TV and it does not work.. Do you call "Loudhandle" OR do you call the place you bougt it from???

I think the answer is clear..

I have not said one thing in any negative light about the long rod in this thread.. Just posted some request facts...

There is no doubt it will reduce side loading.. BUT this reduction in side loading WILL come at an expense and that expense is POWER!! And the side loading is not an issue.. IMO.

AndrettiDog · Aug 3, 2013

Curious where this goes next. For those of us who would rather ride than rebuild our motors...I'm very curious if this is a long rod issue or a piston issue. It's very obvious that two guys who know their motors don't agree. Hopefully IndyDan will chime in and maybe explain what he thinks. Strange......

RKT · Aug 3, 2013

BugIto said:
Curious where this goes next. For those of us who would rather ride than rebuild our motors...I'm very curious if this is a long rod issue or a piston issue. It's very obvious that two guys who know their motors don't agree. Hopefully IndyDan will chime in and maybe explain what he thinks. Strange......

Indy Dan is recommending a long rod kit.. I am recommending a piston kit..

While I do not know if the LR kit fixes anything.. It has been PROVEN that the piston kits (we have 2) we offer DOES solve the problems associated with the piston failures and cylinder failures and is MUCH less money....

so, the choice is on the consumer... But the facts are the facts...

1)Spend a considerable amount of money for something that uses the same piston (that we have proven is the issue) ..that may solve the issues (too early to tell due to the low number of these kits out there and running).
or
2)Spend much less $$$ on something that has been shown to rid your engine of the failures ->>smooth it out and add power in the process AND has been on the market for several years with no reported failures ie PROVEN.

If the piston was never the problem it is very odd that the problem disappears with a correct piston and there is plenty of data to support this...

Again, the choice is on the consumer..

Having CORRECT facts is always a good thing..

All this talk about this rod ratio problem and there is absolutely NO data to support it...The rod ratio is the best of all 3 makers... I have asked for data to support the need for a Long Rod conversion and have yet to get a answer (any answer) that supports the need for a longer rod.

I have always encouraged everybody to ask the pertinent questions to the manufacturer before proceeeding with ANY modifications.. Be informed.. get the data that supports anybody's claims.... just sayin'..

Hondaracer315 · Aug 3, 2013

So if what you are saying rkt is true then I should be okay doing a PMS "fix kit"? And I don't mean any disrespect when I ask you this I have made my mind up between companies about which kit I would put in if I did a drop in kit. Also I am not expecting you to talk negatively about PMS, I am just gathering facts that is all!!!!!! Thanks.

RKT · Aug 3, 2013

Hondaracer315 said:
So if what you are saying rkt is true then I should be okay doing a PMS "fix kit"? And I don't mean any disrespect when I ask you this I have made my mind up between companies about which kit I would put in if I did a drop in kit. Also I am not expecting you to talk negatively about PMS, I am just gathering facts that is all!!!!!! Thanks.

I will be happy to answer your questions... and present some facts (as you requested)

1st off. let's clarify a few things...The PMS fix kit is VERY different from what we offer.. It uses a Wiseco piston and a shim plate. We do not use a Wiseco Piston nor a Shim plate

The FACTS, based on my experience is that the Wiseco Piston has a difficult time keeping its shape/form and the skirts begin collapsing after about 100 miles and will contine to collapse.

We had Wiseco build a piston for us to the exact same spec that we have made (working).. We sent them out to 5 testers across the country.. had them sent back at various mileages for inspection. ALL 10 pistons suffered the same fate. So, those results and past experience, has convinced us to not use them in any bore over 70mm.

We did this experiment to determine if the reason behind the collapsing Wiseco skirts was in the design or the piston manufacturing process.

I have spoken at length with Wiseco Engineers about this as well..

Having said that, using a taller piston like PMS does will allow for less rock in the bore at BDC but the piston skirt is the same length as OEM so, due to the shim, the piston skirt will have even less cylinder support when thrusting and stopping at BDC. This I do not like..

Does it fix anything?? Not sure...But one thing is for sure, a forged piston (even heavily collapsed) will be stronger than a cast piston (especially collapsed) and will last longer before breaking off.. So, this is a positive..

volcano buster · Aug 3, 2013

How long is the warranty on the RKT piston kit?

Hondaracer315 · Aug 4, 2013

I have an 09 800 motor that is going to be torn down and rebuilt with the fix kit, but I am a little interested about the rkt kit. I don't want a salesmans pitch I am looking for truth and actual hard facts that will fix the 800 motor in an 09. I know I am not going to waste my time or money on Indy Dan. Not saying his stuff is not good, just dont have the money!!! Rkt if you want feel free to pm me so we don't bash any companies on here and people get there feelings hurt.

TRS · Aug 4, 2013

Kelsey why do you try and take command of every thread that is in opposition to your thinking? This thread was not started or intended for you to try and sell your wares. Start your own threads. You are really starting to annoy me.

rmscustom · Aug 4, 2013

volcano buster said:
How long is the warranty on the RKT piston kit?

How long is Indy Dans warranty if you buy his parts and assemble yourself?

Norway · Aug 4, 2013

Not many of any kits making the trek over seas, but I know of both RKT pistons and a long rod crank or two.

Pistons lasted 700km, unknown to me why.

Personally I have come to believe those in the know who claims the cylinder bore has poor clearance control. If pistons are the same size and bore varies, this leaves us with different clearance when matched with the different kits, all new parts.

For both economical and statistical reasons, I was set on a PMS kit (over 1000 sold). Then I came across new -13 takeoff pistons for $100 and have sent those to FTX. They will get my cylinder and maybe re-nicasil to a "perfect" fit.

LR later when money finds me.

snowmobiler · Aug 4, 2013

my skidoo keeps going and going like the energizer bunny.

Hondaracer315 · Aug 4, 2013

So Norway are you saying you ran the pms kit? Or did u just use 2013 pro pistons with your stock jugs? Thanks. One other thing I mean I know I am new to this site but what is wrong with rkt, is there something nobody is telling me? Like I say money is tight I need a sled to ride here in AK before I pcs with the military next year and cannot afford a lr motor. So now I have two choices pms or rkt what's everyone's opinion? Sorry for hijacking this thread but no where else have I found a good convo about these kits and LR motors!

tdblakes · Aug 4, 2013

Hondaracer, you have an 09 800 correct? If I were you, I'd go with the PMS fix kit because it was designed for that motor and has been around and used in quite a few CFI-4s since its release. The RKT drop in was designed and tested in the CFI-2 motors of the Pro RMK... Even though it probably would work fine, I'd still go with the PMS kit for that reason. My .02

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2972358&postcount=28

.

m8magicandmystery · Aug 4, 2013

Hondaracer315 said:
Prove it to me why I shouldn't just go the fix kit route?

actually in all fairness RKT was kind of involuntarily invited into this thread by Hondaracer..
im not taking sides, just stating an observation to RKTs right to state his technical views to back up his suggestions based on the thread highjack that was already happening....

Norway · Aug 4, 2013

Hondaracer315 said:
So Norway are you saying you ran the pms kit? Or did u just use 2013 pro pistons with your stock jugs?

Was decided on pms, then found the add with the takeoff 2013 pistons. Changed my mind, bought the 2013 pistons and will do monobloc prep through FTX paired with those pistons instead.

Rune

jwentzer · Aug 4, 2013

m8magicandmystery said:
actually in all fairness RKT was kind of involuntarily invited into this thread by Hondaracer..
im not taking sides, just stating an observation to RKTs right to state his technical views to back up his suggestions based on the thread highjack that was already happening....

You are correct, but in my mind a professional business owner would have done it through PM's, especially when the title is very specific. But, apparently since the thread is all highjacked up....the title being specific isn't relevant anymore.

geo · Aug 5, 2013

TRS said:
Decided to test a long rod motor in a 2012 800 Pro 163.
Indy Dan built the crank and shim/spacer. I used the stock Polaris pistons and monoblock. I am here to tell you, LONG ROD your motor. For the money it's the best bang for the buck. The vibration is gone. Throttle response is amazing and NO fuel controller. Send your cranks to Dan and get this done ,you will be impressed. If not Dan, send them to Brad at PAR.
Finally had some good snow in Cooke today for a real test. Played near Mutt and Jeff. Snow level this morning was in the 2'-3' range. This thing is amazing. The e-tec boys that rode it today said "WOW".
Here is the set up running in the sled:
base TPS .698
idle TPS .924
Stock primary and secondary springs
63.3 gram lightning weights
46-34F Team 04 Helix
2.25 gearing
green/white ex. springs

Thanks Indy Dan

Hey TRS,

'Bin waiting for your usual in depth analysis on the long rod motor. Thanx for starting the thread.

Noticed CMX is doing the same on their builds (and they have been chugging along in the snowmobiling aftermarket business quite well without the drama over the years).

Any measurable updates? Did you ever dyno the package at a place you are familiar with? How many miles did you put on the package? Have you done a leakdown test or peeked at the rings since the end of the season?
I did the springs after the thermostat mod on my '13 with head and pipe and really liked the added torque and consistency for my elevation. My pistons are just beyond service limit and rings look good but worn out end gap wise after a great season.

And you?

indydan · Aug 5, 2013

TRS said:
Kelsey why do you try and take command of every thread that is in opposition to your thinking? This thread was not started or intended for you to try and sell your wares. Start your own threads. You are really starting to annoy me.

Great question TRS.

I would guess he lives on here because he has little to no shop work and is always begging on here trying to prove he is the almighty snow God of snowmobile engines.

Or he has little peep syndrome.......heck maybe both.

My guess is both.

His mouth rakes right up there with his paper edge finder.

The business weakness he shows by living on almost every thread that that has my name is amusing.

Today I get a phone call that says..........Don't go on SW Kelsey is at it again.

LOL!!! Knock yourself out Kelsey I am far to far behind building motors with pistons that don't stick at OEM Clearance.

Bye

Dan

ostnor · Aug 5, 2013

indydan said:
Great question TRS.

I would guess he lives on here because he has little to no shop work and is always begging on here trying to prove he is the almighty snow God of snowmobile engines.

Or he has little peep syndrome.......heck maybe both.

My guess is both.

His mouth rakes right up there with his paper edge finder.

The business weakness he shows by living on almost every thread that that has my name is amusing.

Today I get a phone call that says..........Don't go on SW Kelsey is at it again.

LOL!!! Knock yourself out Kelsey I am far to far behind building motors with pistons that don't stick at OEM Clearance.

Bye

Dan

He, he, I know many people going for RK Tek kit here in Sweden and are happy with how good the sled runs.. I have never heard of any long rod kit.

Laundryboy · Aug 5, 2013

jwentzer said:
You are correct, but in my mind a professional business owner would have done it through PM's, especially when the title is very specific. But, apparently since the thread is all highjacked up....the title being specific isn't relevant anymore.

I think post #98 just hit new lows.

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