--Cavitation or a stalled compressor suggest no airflow movement.. The engine will always be drawing air through the compressor regardless of throttle position...With the compressor spooled up at lower throttle openings, the wheel speed will be better matched to the potential position of the throttle when opened....the engine will demand more airflow when throttle opened regardless of wheel speed or air pressure....With a relatively prematched wheel speed to potential throttle opening, throttle response should be incredible..... In a relatively pre-spooled condition, the compressor will not have to spool up with throttle opening, it just will need to build boost(driven by turbine) with now available increased air available.
I'm not a push turbo guy- but very cool
- Thread starter av8er
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B
come on Dave, we all know what Cavitation is, but i start to have fun here,
here is a new magic word "Thermodynamics"
here is a new magic word "Thermodynamics"
Yep, we had those occasionally when I was working on Gas Turbines in the Navy, can do lots of damage and cause fires:faint: You would not believe the sound it makes:becky:
M
Thanks Dave, very descriptive wiki
Lol I was trying to keep my description a little simpler and gentle on the shoulder mounted thinkin containers out there but they might be fried with the in-depth lesson provided lol.
Lol I was trying to keep my description a little simpler and gentle on the shoulder mounted thinkin containers out there but they might be fried with the in-depth lesson provided lol.
I
Well all this hootin and hollerin dont mean squat til they hit the snow. Sure sounds promising tho
Were just have a discussion, no hollering here:kev:
Hi I will try to answer your questions and clear some miss conceptions up but it appears a lot of you get it.
1= There is no cavitation. Cavitation occurs when a liquid is turned into a gas or a gas turning into a liquid. I can see how people think there would be if you were thinking in terms of a liquid and not a gas, thinking in those terms you must finish the equation, there is another pump behind the turbo (the engine) witch creates a vacuum behind the turbo thus making it imposable to cause cavitation!
2=The BOV on a turbo system is designed to let the volume of air that was just compress and no longer required, to be vented out of the charge tube. It is not a regulator. It prevents a high presser wave from going into the turbo. This may or may not cause compressor damage but certainly no good for performance. The wave is trying to turn the compressor backwards.
I hope this clarifies some of your thoughts. Now let’s talk about how this contraption works. By placing the throttle before the turbo you become about 99% efficient, in that you are only compressing the air the engine will take 100% of the time making it imposable to cause compressor surge. (NO BOV NEADED) When you only compress the amount of air being let in at a given throttle position and rpm, your boost presser and rpm become very consistent. This happens during acceleration and deceleration; this is a huge benefit. I will give you an example= Normal turbo system= your climbing a hill with technical areas and you go to wide open throttle. You come upon difficult terrain, let off throttle a 1/4 to 1/2; you hear the BOV then go back to WOT. What just happened is you went from (let’s say the sled was setup to run 10 psi) 10 psi to 0 back to 10psi of boost. Now on the TBBT system you do the same maneuver. You go from 10 psi to 4-5 psi instead of 0, then very linearly back to 10. There is no comparison between the two. This happens for a few reasons; there is no BOV to vent the charged air, the engine is using all the air, it is a balanced design. The waste gate stays closed longer during acceleration and declaration. The pressure on the exhaust wheel is higher than the compressor wheels out putt increasing shaft speed and holds spool. The slight increase in back pressure helps the bottom end and dos not change top end back pressure, kind of like the power valve. (More on that later). If you would like more torque an hp at all throttle positions, the TiAL system with the HTA wheel is capable of over 300 hp at altitude don’t let the size fool you. Turbo manufactures have been trying to accomplish this by a variable vane design; this helps maintain shaft speed and works with a BOV design. Now couple that with a comprehensive turbo charged engine management system. (THE ECU) It makes my previous kits kind of pathetic in comparison! (SORRY) :faint:The good news is they can be updated. :cheer2: Price and info to come.
PUSH TURBO Manufacturer of State of the Art, Light Weight, Turbo Kits
1= There is no cavitation. Cavitation occurs when a liquid is turned into a gas or a gas turning into a liquid. I can see how people think there would be if you were thinking in terms of a liquid and not a gas, thinking in those terms you must finish the equation, there is another pump behind the turbo (the engine) witch creates a vacuum behind the turbo thus making it imposable to cause cavitation!
2=The BOV on a turbo system is designed to let the volume of air that was just compress and no longer required, to be vented out of the charge tube. It is not a regulator. It prevents a high presser wave from going into the turbo. This may or may not cause compressor damage but certainly no good for performance. The wave is trying to turn the compressor backwards.
I hope this clarifies some of your thoughts. Now let’s talk about how this contraption works. By placing the throttle before the turbo you become about 99% efficient, in that you are only compressing the air the engine will take 100% of the time making it imposable to cause compressor surge. (NO BOV NEADED) When you only compress the amount of air being let in at a given throttle position and rpm, your boost presser and rpm become very consistent. This happens during acceleration and deceleration; this is a huge benefit. I will give you an example= Normal turbo system= your climbing a hill with technical areas and you go to wide open throttle. You come upon difficult terrain, let off throttle a 1/4 to 1/2; you hear the BOV then go back to WOT. What just happened is you went from (let’s say the sled was setup to run 10 psi) 10 psi to 0 back to 10psi of boost. Now on the TBBT system you do the same maneuver. You go from 10 psi to 4-5 psi instead of 0, then very linearly back to 10. There is no comparison between the two. This happens for a few reasons; there is no BOV to vent the charged air, the engine is using all the air, it is a balanced design. The waste gate stays closed longer during acceleration and declaration. The pressure on the exhaust wheel is higher than the compressor wheels out putt increasing shaft speed and holds spool. The slight increase in back pressure helps the bottom end and dos not change top end back pressure, kind of like the power valve. (More on that later). If you would like more torque an hp at all throttle positions, the TiAL system with the HTA wheel is capable of over 300 hp at altitude don’t let the size fool you. Turbo manufactures have been trying to accomplish this by a variable vane design; this helps maintain shaft speed and works with a BOV design. Now couple that with a comprehensive turbo charged engine management system. (THE ECU) It makes my previous kits kind of pathetic in comparison! (SORRY) :faint:The good news is they can be updated. :cheer2: Price and info to come.
PUSH TURBO Manufacturer of State of the Art, Light Weight, Turbo Kits
M
Yes this would be a conversion that I would consider for my CPC kit. A single throttle body and high flow inlet y-pipe. Very cool idea and would clean up/simplify the engine bay somewhat too.
P
yeah, i have to admit that i've been thinking about this in terms of fluid movement, and the hundreds of pumps we have at work. but i've also heard of charge tube backpressure being refered to as cavitation... so that's what is leading me to believe that cavitation in air movement is still possible.
i didn't realize that only a partial closing of the throttle triggered the bov in other systems. i thought it only opened when the throttle closed completely??
i also have to admit that when it comes to turbos, i'm a bookworm, not an experienced builder. i've got much more time on centrifugal pumps.
the kit sounds great here on the forums, but part of me is still waiting to be convinced on the snow. can't wait to be shown the truth. i'll be in line to buy one if it does everything claimed, and functions with the same or less amount of wear and tear.
i didn't realize that only a partial closing of the throttle triggered the bov in other systems. i thought it only opened when the throttle closed completely??
i also have to admit that when it comes to turbos, i'm a bookworm, not an experienced builder. i've got much more time on centrifugal pumps.
the kit sounds great here on the forums, but part of me is still waiting to be convinced on the snow. can't wait to be shown the truth. i'll be in line to buy one if it does everything claimed, and functions with the same or less amount of wear and tear.
ah, got ya... check the description in the website under the turbo kit for the M8... he describes how it works... WAY more to it (how the ECU reads from the EGT, det, and other sources) than current setups, I'd say it SOUNDS a lot like a closed loop, in that it reads the EGT's, but it isn't technically one I don't think. (am I wrong on that guys? Does the fact that it takes EGT into account MAKE it closed loop by definition?) The fact that it modifies timing on the fly is a big step imo as well, that's the ONE thing I'd really like to have on my sled.
VERY excited to see this on the snow... when does the first one ship to CO Ken????:becky: (I've got a 2012 coming for my wife that we'd be MORE THAN HAPPY to help "market" it with!!!! :becky::becky::becky::becky
Obviously, a lot of new stuff here, and time on snow is the only thing that will prove it REALLY works, just like how the BD stuff always sounded like a good idea but took a little time before it was truly solid & BS free. The steps taken here though are BIG steps imo, and I'm very excited to see how they work in practice.
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I REALLY hope to have one of these stand alone ecm's on my sled this year. I just hope they are affordable.
--Push Turbo--
--I am sure you have to build a system "one size fits all" but would a larger turbo with ECU, TBBT, etc. be better suited for high altitude?
--A 2871 TIAL with a 70 A/R compressor housing, 4 inch intake and 2 1/2 inch out with a 2 1/2 inch charge tube and the intake manifold to match. TBBT, ECU, etc. and everything else to match. I know you mentioned earlier, the 2868 could achieve 300 Hp, but even at 220 HP, the higher volume components of the 2871 70 A/R would produce the same HP with less boost, less wheel speed, less charge temp, less required octane, very good throttle response -- then add all the benefits of the system on top of that.
--What are your thoughts concerning this?
--I am sure you have to build a system "one size fits all" but would a larger turbo with ECU, TBBT, etc. be better suited for high altitude?
--A 2871 TIAL with a 70 A/R compressor housing, 4 inch intake and 2 1/2 inch out with a 2 1/2 inch charge tube and the intake manifold to match. TBBT, ECU, etc. and everything else to match. I know you mentioned earlier, the 2868 could achieve 300 Hp, but even at 220 HP, the higher volume components of the 2871 70 A/R would produce the same HP with less boost, less wheel speed, less charge temp, less required octane, very good throttle response -- then add all the benefits of the system on top of that.
--What are your thoughts concerning this?
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I want a test ride, is there any way to make that happen?
Everything is lining up well and I really like the idea of the simplicity and direct flow of this system. Did you get any real snow testing yet. I really like the twisted kits but this has a lot of potential and will depend on actual performance and reliability, if a few small things can be changed I'm very interested.
Everything is lining up well and I really like the idea of the simplicity and direct flow of this system. Did you get any real snow testing yet. I really like the twisted kits but this has a lot of potential and will depend on actual performance and reliability, if a few small things can be changed I'm very interested.
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Out of all the systems I have reviewed/researched the push system works for my particular needs....my biggest concern would be tech support and back-up.
Sounds awesome, if this system works as advertised then there is no real reason to NOT have a turbo on your sled. Reliable, self compensating and seamless power transition. ME LIKE!
I just want a data cord and application to hook to my laptop to access and see what is going on if needed, then it could all be done online or over the phone.
Wouldn't starving the compressor with a TB on the intake just remove drag and let it spin freely? You can't go lower than 0 PSI with a gas and it'll be in the same form regardless. Don't understand the compressor "cavitation" logic. Seems to me it would spin up and have potential energy and just be waiting for thicker, higher pressure air...instant boost and not spool up required...it's already spooled up. And, the exhaust should just push through freely with minimal drag on the veins via the shaft. Seems it would spell efficiency...minimal drag on exhaust and not lost energy. Awesome concept. Time will tell if it works but cool stuff to think about.
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