Programmable Standalone ECU for M8

YETIms · Oct 18, 2010

Hi Folks

I know there is a thread for the Standalone ECU for M8 but i have few Tech questions, so the best idea was to ask people here.

We have developed a Standalone ECU and have running it on two sleds without problems. We are close to release it with a turbo kit manufacturer, anyway that is not the point.

After testing and calculation production costs, we have also try a piggyback system.
We found out that piggyback deliver nearly the same result as a standalone but the production costs are not so high and we do not need to control every corner of the 2 stroke engine.

standalone give you a full control of nearly everything on and in the engine.
but do we need that? it is funny to write your name on the dash after starting the snowmobiles but there is nearly nothing to change to get better performance.

piggyback that we have made is nearly the same hardware as standalone so we take over functions we need to control the important engine functions and the turbo on it.

piggyback take over:
fuel map, timing map, exhaust valve control, map sensor for boost, we add two temp sensors for I/C air in and out, oil pressure control for turbo, a/f ratio, we run now fuel detection, and few other functions, boost solenoid control, ...

i think piggyback should work better then a standalone, then on a standalone it is easy to take over all features from the OEM ecu but most of those features you never change!

what do you think? standalone or piggyback?

RACINSTATION · Oct 18, 2010

I think there is a market for both products. In the four stroke world we are working with both standalone and piggyback as well. The standalone works great, is far more complicated, and FAR FAR more expensive. I think a sophisticated piggyback would offer nearly all the features at a lower price. I work a lot with the Powercommander, it is a piggyback. If I had timing control, I believe I would have a home run! Then for the guys that are running big boost, or a lot of variance in their elevation, the standalone would be great. Stand alones are going to cost $2000 to $4000 and that is too much for us average guys. Piggybacks can be developed and sold for $300-500.00. Most of us can live with that.

YETIms · Oct 18, 2010

thanks for the answer.

PC is for me a EFi controller not really a piggyback. A real piggyback ecu is far more complicated then a efi.
I think even for the piggyback the price will be 1k and more.
Internal parts are nearly the same as on a standalone, then take over functions means full take over, all signals from OEM ecu are going to dead end. the OEM ecu would control few engine sensors and few other little things that do not need to be included in to the piggyback.

on 4stroke we are running full standalone system then piggyback on 4stroke sucks.

Wheel House Motorsports · Oct 18, 2010

I think we are used to the low level boxes that basically only offer additional fueling based on boost.. they dont do a WHOLE lot, and full standalone is miles ahead of it, some could use something in bewteen, and they are trying to offer a product that sort of bridges the gap, lots more options then a standard dobeck style box, but not a system that requires you to be be amazing at building efi maps.

dubbs · Oct 18, 2010

That sounds pretty awesome!

I think if it will accomplish the tasks you are talking about nobody would care if it's a piggy back or stand alone... Would sure be sweet if it was under a G, pretty exiting to hear about stuff like this making it's way to market. Gives hope that an affordable solution won't be that far down the road.

I think it would be great to be able to just pin er and not worry, just take a glance at the A\F gauge once in a while.

I would imagine a pretty substantial gain in performance could be made with timing, intake air temp, and A/F optimization...

And hey if you want a test pilot I would more than happy to help with some testing!

WyoBoy1000 · Oct 18, 2010

fuel map, timing map, exhaust valve control, map sensor for boost, we add two temp sensors for I/C air in and out, oil pressure control for turbo, a/f ratio, we run now fuel detection, and few other functions, boost solenoid control, ...

These are the big ones to me and would imagine there is no need for more as it will not make any difference on the hill most of the time.

YETIms · Oct 19, 2010

that is exactly what we think.

some sensors simply do not need to be controlled by a piggyback, then OEM ecu do it very good.

we would take over the important functions and the dash and the rest can be done by the OEM ecu.

in that case we do not need to place more controllers on the piggyback ecu and that will keep the price low as possible.

but price is a complicated thing to.
we can use low cost controllers or high quality stuff. the difference is huge.
we must give warranty on it so i am sure we go 99% with HQ parts.
even the connectors alone cost 250USD :-(

glassman · Oct 19, 2010

I really like the idea of a self adjusting ecu, whether it is piggybacked or a stand alone. If you can acheive all of the essential functions in a less expensive piggyback unit then it would be logical to go that route. Very excited to have a unit that is basically idiot proof, and will virtually eliminate gauges and keep that sleeper look.

4mcntrls · Oct 20, 2010

Sounds like the piggy back is the way to go, I am all for just plug and go, a quick look at the a/f gauge and hold on!! Keep us updated please.

jijohans · Oct 23, 2010

Piggyback or not, in my opinion the absolute must on the controller would be a display so you can see what your doing,and not have to bring a laptop for tuning. Make it something like the Boondocker box,only more functions and settings.

YETIms · Oct 23, 2010

the piggyback or standalone with a lot of features is there to not look at it. it should do all that stuff you want and you need.

you make it once and it runs. you do not need to look at it. if youhave problems you need anyway to run the management software for troubleshooting. but in snow, just run it.

backcountryislife · Oct 23, 2010

glassman said:
I really like the idea of a self adjusting ecu,

I think THIS is what 99% of us want. I don't know anyone who I've talked to aside from those that tune for a living that has said that they like having to tune a box. Adjustability is nice but most of us just want the sled to run like a stocker!

Give us a box that we can plug in & run & we'll pay for it. (not $2500, but maybe as high as 750?) I can't say I'd be willing to pay more than $500 for a box no matter how good it is though, we could just pay RS or another tuner to tune the box for us for way less than that.

glassman · Oct 24, 2010

jijohans said:
Piggyback or not, in my opinion the absolute must on the controller would be a display so you can see what your doing,and not have to bring a laptop for tuning. Make it something like the Boondocker box,only more functions and settings.

If the thing is actually a self adjusting unit then there would be no need to constantly tune and stare at guages to make sure it is running correctly. Not everyone NEEDS to get that last little bit. I personally want to know the electronics are doing the work that i would normally be doing, with some sort of failsafe in case something is not working within the perameters it is given. Then you would have a truly user friendly unit and spend more time riding than worrying and tuning. JMO

YETIms · Oct 24, 2010

turbo kit manufacturers will tune the box to a secure limit.

the list of problematic things is longer then the list of done points.

the OEM ecu on PO and AC is a box full of sh*t no corrections, no soft limits no save features, nothing.

if you use HQ parts on the ECU board they need exact information. I hate all those BS half products coming from the manufacturers.

the only product without problems is the 1200cc skidoo ecu. even rotax guys love it

MCIVER · Oct 24, 2010

So will this piggy back system allow us to run 2 larger injectors instead 4 for high boost applications ?

Daltech · Oct 27, 2010

YETIms said:
turbo kit manufacturers will tune the box to a secure limit.

the list of problematic things is longer then the list of done points.

the OEM ecu on PO and AC is a box full of sh*t no corrections, no soft limits no save features, nothing.

if you use HQ parts on the ECU board they need exact information. I hate all those BS half products coming from the manufacturers.

the only product without problems is the 1200cc skidoo ecu. even rotax guys love it

True. The 1200 ECU is even possible to flash:thumb:

YETIms · Oct 27, 2010

it is possible to reflash last 2 years but pretty senseless

with reflash you can only optimize fuel economy, pergormance gain with more timing and fuel is less then 5%
that is a perfect solution if you run 50+ GTX rental sleds, so fuel costs can be drop down for 30+%

on turbo setup, you can load a map for turbo application but you still need external parts like temp, boost, att sensors,

even if you use siemens ecu with temp and map support if will not work then on OEM ecu you can not change any crank information.

all tried and all tested, nothing worked to call it "quality"

Daltech said:
True. The 1200 ECU is even possible to flash:thumb:

Daltech · Oct 28, 2010

Yes, but what we see here is that we are getting closer to the automobile world regards controlling engines. Soon we hopefully will see flash options on oem turbo engines, like the cat 1100. Then it`s getting even better.
Back to your product, the piggyback solution you are mention here, is to me a dream that`s about to come true. I`m a fan of the PC5, as it`s the best that`s out there atm. When somones comes out whit a system that can controll timing also, then they have my full attention. The midrange on the newest modells are nasty when you start playing whit the engine, and if I could controll ingition, then tuning would be alot easier.
To reach this s.... EPA standards, they have played whit the timing, and that kills the performance when you are strechting it further.
I`m inline for your product when ever it would be relased:thumb:

YETIms · Oct 28, 2010

that are two different systems
1200 OE ecu in not turbo ready, then the hardware do not support it.
1100 AC is a full ecu which support turbo applications (oem engine is already with turbo) to bad that we do not have any market for that snowmobiles. we
on 1100 AC engine is a efi controller everything you need, fuel, boost and igni (all that based on throttle signal) and for 600 USD

you just select what power you want

Well in europe we do not have any epa or what ever standard, also i think turbo charged 2 stroke is far away from any standard.

Daltech said:
Yes, but what we see here is that we are getting closer to the automobile world regards controlling engines. Soon we hopefully will see flash options on oem turbo engines, like the cat 1100. Then it`s getting even better.
Back to your product, the piggyback solution you are mention here, is to me a dream that`s about to come true. I`m a fan of the PC5, as it`s the best that`s out there atm. When somones comes out whit a system that can controll timing also, then they have my full attention. The midrange on the newest modells are nasty when you start playing whit the engine, and if I could controll ingition, then tuning would be alot easier.
To reach this s.... EPA standards, they have played whit the timing, and that kills the performance when you are strechting it further.
I`m inline for your product when ever it would be relased:thumb:

Daltech · Oct 28, 2010

I`m fully aware of that beeing two different systems. But do you know which ECU that sits in the 1100?
I`m doing car flashes myself, that`s why I`m interested.
Where in europe are you located?

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