Avalanche Fatalities

Ride_The_Rockies · Feb 9, 2019

Another one again today - Man killed in Coalville avalanche

This has been a really bad year. Everyone, please be careful

https://www.ksl.com/article/46487253/man-killed-in-coalville-avalanche

Mort2112 · Feb 9, 2019

The guy in coalville was with his 14 YO son. I hurt thinking of what that kid saw and what the rest of his life is going to look like.

That said, looking at the photos they posted, I am really surprised anyone would be trying to climb those right now. There are at least 20 avalanches listed over the week on UAC's site. Please please please be careful.

UAC has more than 30 avalanches on their website in the last week.

goridedoo · Feb 11, 2019

Mort2112 said:
The guy in coalville was with his 14 YO son. I hurt thinking of what that kid saw and what the rest of his life is going to look like.

That said, looking at the photos they posted, I am really surprised anyone would be trying to climb those right now. There are at least 20 avalanches listed over the week on UAC's site. Please please please be careful.

UAC has more than 30 avalanches on their website in the last week.

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanche/44217

Video here explaining what happened.

ltmfb · Feb 11, 2019

I'm new to snowmobiling here in Utah and trying to be careful not to be overly critical or offensive....

But at least 1/2 of these avalanche fatalities the riders either do not have the right gear, or are not very knowledgeable on how to properly use it.

I also realize there are other avalanche reports of riders being successfully dug out with the proper gear, but makes me wonder why people are not afraid, or not educated on the topic.

Selfishly worrying about who I ride with, makes me wonder if this is the norm, or if these stories are just outliers.

Thoughts?

DRIVEBYE · Feb 11, 2019

goridedoo said:
https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanche/44217

Video here explaining what happened.

Damn that was hard to watch.

DRIVEBYE · Feb 11, 2019

ltmfb said:
I'm new to snowmobiling here in Utah and trying to be careful not to be overly critical or offensive....

But at least 1/2 of these avalanche fatalities the riders either do not have the right gear, or are not very knowledgeable on how to properly use it.

I also realize there are other avalanche reports of riders being successfully dug out with the proper gear, but makes me wonder why people are not afraid, or not educated on the topic.

Selfishly worrying about who I ride with, makes me wonder if this is the norm, or if these stories are just outliers.

Thoughts?

Like everything else you only hear about the bad. But it is obviously very real. My advice to you is be the leader and take the time to educate your friends and yourself. Especially if nobody in your group does. I think people tend to avoid the subject because you don't want to be a downer etc. I went on a ride yesterday and we discussed this before the ride. To me it is 100% terrain choices which sounds really obvious but it is that simply.

ltmfb · Feb 11, 2019

DRIVEBYE said:
Like everything else you only hear about the bad. But it is obviously very real. My advice to you is be the leader and take the time to educate your friends and yourself. Especially if nobody in your group does. I think people tend to avoid the subject because you don't want to be a downer etc. I went on a ride yesterday and we discussed this before the ride. To me it is 100% terrain choices which sounds really obvious but it is that simply.

Very true in terrain choice and avoiding areas according to the avalanche reports.

Also a good point of taking charge, pre-ride brief, checking gear, etc...

Big10inch · Feb 11, 2019

ltmfb said:
I'm new to snowmobiling here in Utah and trying to be careful not to be overly critical or offensive....

But at least 1/2 of these avalanche fatalities the riders either do not have the right gear, or are not very knowledgeable on how to properly use it.

I also realize there are other avalanche reports of riders being successfully dug out with the proper gear, but makes me wonder why people are not afraid, or not educated on the topic.

Selfishly worrying about who I ride with, makes me wonder if this is the norm, or if these stories are just outliers.

Thoughts?

If you read the reports, yes, lots of mistakes... Very often it is people from out of the area, not familiar with the mountains in general. They are on vacation and squeezing as much of a good time in as possible. This leads to poor decision making.

The real statistics on sledders dying in avalanches show the threat to be quite small. The average year in the US claims around 20 lives but at the same time they sold 20,000 new sleds, and most riders are not on new sleds so maybe we are dealing with 40k riders. The number of deaths statistically isn't nearly as bad as the fear spread on a forum like this. Can it happen? Absolutely, does it happen? Not nearly as often as people would have you believe.

Simply staying off the hill for 24 hrs after a storm mitigates most of your risk. Something like 90% of natural slides occur within 24 hrs of the storm.

I do not feel that my position is any more extreme than those goading you into gearing up and getting trained. I find those positions pretty extreme myself. Those are the exact people getting into trouble most of the time because they feel they have mitigated their risk by carrying gear and having been "trained" how to use it. The most recent ones have been the guys with gear and training, dead...

I am not necessarily advocating no gear, no training, no problem. However, I do firmly believe that understanding the conditions and location you are riding in is FAR more important that wearing a backpack full or gear for when you really screw up.

willjogervais · Feb 11, 2019

goridedoo said:
https://utahavalanchecenter.org/avalanche/44217

Video here explaining what happened.

Damn, that hurts to listen to his words. That is soo sad. If something like that doesn't make you take pause and think about things when you are out riding, I don't know what will.

Thank you for sharing that.

ktm131rob · Feb 11, 2019

Big10inch said:
If you read the reports, yes, lots of mistakes... Very often it is people from out of the area, not familiar with the mountains in general. They are on vacation and squeezing as much of a good time in as possible. This leads to poor decision making.

The real statistics on sledders dying in avalanches show the threat to be quite small. The average year in the US claims around 20 lives but at the same time they sold 20,000 new sleds, and most riders are not on new sleds so maybe we are dealing with 40k riders. The number of deaths statistically isn't nearly as bad as the fear spread on a forum like this. Can it happen? Absolutely, does it happen? Not nearly as often as people would have you believe.

Simply staying off the hill for 24 hrs after a storm mitigates most of your risk. Something like 90% of natural slides occur within 24 hrs of the storm.

I do not feel that my position is any more extreme than those goading you into gearing up and getting trained. I find those positions pretty extreme myself. Those are the exact people getting into trouble most of the time because they feel they have mitigated their risk by carrying gear and having been "trained" how to use it. The most recent ones have been the guys with gear and training, dead...

I am not necessarily advocating no gear, no training, no problem. However, I do firmly believe that understanding the conditions and location you are riding in is FAR more important that wearing a backpack full or gear for when you really screw up.

I understand your point completely you are right, there is no replacement for awareness and understanding of the snow. I just took your comments as advocating for people to not buy gear. U need a beacon shovel and probe. Avalanche safety clinics at least the ones I have been to spend a very little amount of time on gear and more on terrain and snow conditions. I would agree that people dont listen to about 95% of the instructor on these issues. The participants in our sport gravitate more toward a shinny new back pack than to someone talking snow science and that is a fact. That theory can be proved simply by the fact that 75% of the guys you see blaming the sled and not there skill level on stucks and mistakes. A new 850 and a sidekick aint going to make you a pro.

I hope you understand where I am coming from though... Its very hard to change that phenomenon I mentioned above. Its the nature of humans and our sport. In the same way better driving would stop most accidents, seat belts help because we cant force people to become better drivers. Preaching awareness is much harder than selling gear and because of that the gear is the best chance to help those caught in slides. This will continue until being an avy safety expert is as cool as having a new neon back pack. Common sense is not common.

*** Disclaimer*** It is nearly impossible to recover someone in a slide with out basic gear Beacon probe shovel ect....

goridedoo · Feb 11, 2019

Big10inch said:
If you read the reports, yes, lots of mistakes... Very often it is people from out of the area, not familiar with the mountains in general. They are on vacation and squeezing as much of a good time in as possible. This leads to poor decision making.

The real statistics on sledders dying in avalanches show the threat to be quite small. The average year in the US claims around 20 lives but at the same time they sold 20,000 new sleds, and most riders are not on new sleds so maybe we are dealing with 40k riders. The number of deaths statistically isn't nearly as bad as the fear spread on a forum like this. Can it happen? Absolutely, does it happen? Not nearly as often as people would have you believe.

Simply staying off the hill for 24 hrs after a storm mitigates most of your risk. Something like 90% of natural slides occur within 24 hrs of the storm.

I do not feel that my position is any more extreme than those goading you into gearing up and getting trained. I find those positions pretty extreme myself. Those are the exact people getting into trouble most of the time because they feel they have mitigated their risk by carrying gear and having been "trained" how to use it. The most recent ones have been the guys with gear and training, dead...

I am not necessarily advocating no gear, no training, no problem. However, I do firmly believe that understanding the conditions and location you are riding in is FAR more important that wearing a backpack full or gear for when you really screw up.

Always a mistake made when a slide occurs.

Little comment on the bold highlighting... off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 deaths this year that possibly COULD... COULD have gone the other way.

Mt Leidy, Togwotee, buried 4ft deep, no beacon.
Choteau, MT buried 1-2ft deep, no beacon.
Tushars, UT buried 1-2ft deep, no beacon.
Uintas, UT (the above slide) no probe, though this one likely would have still resulted in a death from the way it sounds.

In looking at reports on Avalanche.org there are more deaths that involved a lack of gear-

Skyline Utah, skier, no beacon, buried a maximum of 1 meter deep.
La Sals, Utah, sledder, beacon in pack turned OFF, buried 2-3ft deep.

Those are all from the 2018-2019 season. There have been a total of 13 deaths. 6 of them (8 if you include the inbounds slide at Taos) involved people in the backcountry with out proper gear. Just keep in mind that NO ONE plans to go out and get buried. Its good to be prepared.

Big10inch · Feb 11, 2019

goridedoo said:
Always a mistake made when a slide occurs.

Little comment on the bold highlighting... off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 deaths this year that possibly COULD... COULD have gone the other way.

Mt Leidy, Togwotee, buried 4ft deep, no beacon.
Choteau, MT buried 1-2ft deep, no beacon.
Tushars, UT buried 1-2ft deep, no beacon.
Uintas, UT (the above slide) no probe, though this one likely would have still resulted in a death from the way it sounds.

In looking at reports on Avalanche.org there are more deaths that involved a lack of gear-

Skyline Utah, skier, no beacon, buried a maximum of 1 meter deep.
La Sals, Utah, sledder, beacon in pack turned OFF, buried 2-3ft deep.

Those are all from the 2018-2019 season. There have been a total of 13 deaths. 6 of them (8 if you include the inbounds slide at Taos) involved people in the backcountry with out proper gear. Just keep in mind that NO ONE plans to go out and get buried. Its good to be prepared.

Still a VERY small chance and still over 50% had the proper gear?

The threat is very small, much smaller than touted on this forum. The best preparation is still using your head. The rest might save you half the time? Playing it smart, gear or not, gives you a much better chance.

Is anyone here really trying to deny the fact that gear emboldens users? If you have been sledding in the mtns at all, I am sure you have seen it. THIS is MUCH more dangerous than the guy with no gear, not taking stupid chances. I get that many of you think taking chances is hip and cool, makes hair grow on your nads and all. That is the real issue, not your gear.

DRIVEBYE · Feb 11, 2019

Big10inch said:
Still a VERY small chance and still over 50% had the proper gear?

The threat is very small, much smaller than touted on this forum. The best preparation is still using your head. The rest might save you half the time? Playing it smart, gear or not, gives you a much better chance.

Is anyone here really trying to deny the fact that gear emboldens users? If you have been sledding in the mtns at all, I am sure you have seen it. THIS is MUCH more dangerous than the guy with no gear, not taking stupid chances. I get that many of you think taking chances is hip and cool, makes hair grow on your nads and all. That is the real issue, not your gear.

The dumbest guys I have ever been around did not have any gear...That's just my experience.

boondocker97 · Feb 11, 2019

DRIVEBYE said:
The dumbest guys I have ever been around did not have any gear...That's just my experience.

^X2.

ktm131rob · Feb 11, 2019

Big10inch said:
Still a VERY small chance and still over 50% had the proper gear?

The threat is very small, much smaller than touted on this forum. The best preparation is still using your head. The rest might save you half the time? Playing it smart, gear or not, gives you a much better chance.

Is anyone here really trying to deny the fact that gear emboldens users? If you have been sledding in the mtns at all, I am sure you have seen it. THIS is MUCH more dangerous than the guy with no gear, not taking stupid chances. I get that many of you think taking chances is hip and cool, makes hair grow on your nads and all. That is the real issue, not your gear.

Based on that theory we should all stay home.... Because then nothing bad will happen. Ever.... period..... done.

Mistakes happen thats why you wear the gear get the training. a SEAL entry team will train for two weeks to clear a house in a simulation they will know every detail of that room every factor that could happen. But when they stack up those dudes are wearing plates and helmets. They did everything they could to not get shot or hurt. But it happens its part of the job. Just like avalanches are part of the sport.

Our sport is full of adrenaline junkies out to get a rush... I know I am... Buying training and gear isnt cool there is not one thats better than the other. We should all put this childish argument aside and do like the SEALS do train and practice and train and learn and practice and train some more not argue about who has the right answer but do everything we can weather its gear or training to get everyone off the hill every day.

Everything in this thread helps. Try advocating for it all and not just one method. Spend time spreading the message instead of trying to be right. We need to change the mindset. We need to make avalanche safety as important as picking what brand of sled you are gunna buy. Heaven knows we all have time to figure that out...

revrider07 · Feb 11, 2019

I'm going to say this the ability of these new sleds have really amped the problem up vs 25 years ago. The only guys that had a sled or the ability to ride these places were diehard riders with lots of experience on deep days and they typically had experienced a slide when riding or seen one. There are to many guys that can lay down 9000$ and have a sled that can get them in trouble faster than you can shake a stick. It's the choices that are made that will cleanse the gene pool. It's hard reality some days juice isn't worth the squeeze. Happy sledding.

slyrydr · Feb 11, 2019

couple of thoughts about this discussion.....by way of background, i am a pilot, with 22 years flying fighter jets, F-16 and similar high performance stuff....also a captain with a major commercial jet airline, 32 years doing that, obviously an overlap of time, as i did both simultaneously....in 32 years of commercial flying i never killed anyone, nor did i damage an aircraft, never caused a harm to a passenger or any piece of equipment with which i was entrusted....i was always cognizant of my responsibilities for the 150 people behind me, personal discipline and responsibility were part of the integrity necessary for their and my safety, i used to stand at the front of the aircraft as they boarded, because i wanted to look at each of their faces to remind me that they were entrusting themselves in my care, and i didn't want to let them down....flying F-16 fighter jets in many parts of the globe also took a different sort of responsibility, because it was just me in the jet, but i always had in my mind a wife and family that depended on me....i had available to me the finest equipment in the world, but it was always the personal judgement and mental discipline that enabled me to return home safely...i had many friends and students who lost that discipline in the heat of the moment, trying to do things outside their personal capabilities or the limits of the aircraft, and they frequently paid for their breakdown of discipline with their lives....it's very hard to go to a wife and family with the news of their husband/father that won't be coming home....can't tell you the heartbreak of those left behind....don't want to be preachy, just relate a bit of my experience and perspective, keep your perspective of consequence as a factor in the things you do......have fun, but return....:face-icon-small-hap

srfink · Feb 12, 2019

It's training and constant training that will save lives. Case in point. Last week a group of us were in Cooke riding for a week. General avalanche conditions were MODERATE per GNFAC. We were boondocking trees and riding the meadows and feeling pretty comfortable with the snow conditions and the avy assessment. While the boys continued to play, I went ahead and utilized my training and dug a snow pit just to validate the assessment. My pit was approximately 5 1/2 feet deep. I initiated tests and couldn't get it to propagate. It was extremely stable with one exception. The bottom 2 feet was like pure sugar. If there was going to be a slide, it would break all the way to the bottom. After some discussion with the others of my findings, we made a consensus to stay off of slopes over 30 degrees. There was plenty of trees, creeks, and meadows to enjoy. After returning home, I read my daily GNFAC alert and they had posted there was a large slide on Mt Abundance that broke right at the bottom. Hmmmm....My assessment was SPOT ON 100%!! No doubt we would have liked to "play" on the steeper slopes, but we all came home alive and unharmed.

Vincenthdfan · Feb 13, 2019

slyrydr said:
couple of thoughts about this discussion.....by way of background, i am a pilot, with 22 years flying fighter jets, F-16 and similar high performance stuff....also a captain with a major commercial jet airline, 32 years doing that, obviously an overlap of time, as i did both simultaneously....in 32 years of commercial flying i never killed anyone, nor did i damage an aircraft, never caused a harm to a passenger or any piece of equipment with which i was entrusted....i was always cognizant of my responsibilities for the 150 people behind me, personal discipline and responsibility were part of the integrity necessary for their and my safety, i used to stand at the front of the aircraft as they boarded, because i wanted to look at each of their faces to remind me that they were entrusting themselves in my care, and i didn't want to let them down....flying F-16 fighter jets in many parts of the globe also took a different sort of responsibility, because it was just me in the jet, but i always had in my mind a wife and family that depended on me....i had available to me the finest equipment in the world, but it was always the personal judgement and mental discipline that enabled me to return home safely...i had many friends and students who lost that discipline in the heat of the moment, trying to do things outside their personal capabilities or the limits of the aircraft, and they frequently paid for their breakdown of discipline with their lives....it's very hard to go to a wife and family with the news of their husband/father that won't be coming home....can't tell you the heartbreak of those left behind....don't want to be preachy, just relate a bit of my experience and perspective, keep your perspective of consequence as a factor in the things you do......have fun, but return....:face-icon-small-hap

Sir, as a Maintainer of the aircraft you used to fly, I totally understand exactly what you are saying about personal responsibility to those aboard the aircraft. I spent 30 years of my life doing just that...20 in the Air Force and 10 as a contracted civilian on military helicopters. I always had that safety of crew and passengers first and foremost on my mind, no matter how cold, late, dark it was...nor how much pressure I had to "Turn the aircraft now!".

Just had to add that to what you wrote and let you know, I understand what you are saying 100%.

AdrenalineAddict · Feb 24, 2019

I just returned from a weekend of riding in NE Nevada in an area that received 6' of fresh in the last 6 days. I had talked to a couple folks who mentioned they were not going anywhere near those mountains for quite some time. Needless to say traffic was light and we had by far the best ride of the year, we played it safe (although tree riding is not how I'm wired), and all came alive and well. I've had a few close calls with Avy's over the last 35 years and even rescued a few folks from certain death, but I am neither scared or paranoid to go out and enjoy the best deep snow day of the season. Using your head and most importantly, being mindful of what others are doing around you is the key to making it back to the trailer.

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