Ethanol in fuel with aftermarket power tuners

caper11 · Jan 10, 2018

I figured I try to put this here for some exposure, Im really hoping guys like Big John, Dave Trygstad, and turbo companies get in on this conversation cause this topic has me curious.

So I had a interesting conversation with my brother about issues with a performance box he added to a snosports toy he has. Its actually a snow bike. I know this is a G4 thread but this info has me wondering if the info I heard has some merit, that effects the sled aftermarket industry.
Hes having some issues on his bike and called the manufacturer of the power box. Apparently the company has received lots of complaints from Canadian customers with the same issue but the issue does not exist in the US.
So the tech guy came all the way to the revelstoke area to do some investigation. His tune in the box he developed relies on fuel that contains ethanol in it, and claims the ethanol in the fuel makes more power than pure pump gas. So it turns out he tested lots of fuel in the Revelstoke area and did not find any ethanol in the Canadian fuel. I always thought some premium fuels at certain gas stations didnt have it and the other grades did, but he also tested mid grade, down to regular grade and there was no ethanol present.
So the problem with the box is its not seeing the proper fuel and it needs the ethanol in it to build more power.

My question to the Engine and turbo builders and tuners is, does your kits require the same ethanol blend fuel to make your pump gas kits run the way they should?

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Chadly · Jan 10, 2018

Ethanol is a way to oxygenate fuel. The timing needs to be retarded because ethanol ignites sooner. The whole making more power with oxygenated fuel is the dumbest thing I have heard. It surprises me someone who is working on fuel maps and/or aftermarket tuner would be completely retarded when it comes to fuel. Tell the guy to Google it. He probably would learn more in five minutes of reading than he has ever known. I would also suggest you research it a bit online too. It blows my mind how people are willing to post stuff looking like a complete Jack rabbit when you can easily self educate on the internet. :face-icon-small-con

jackbombay · Jan 10, 2018

Ethanol has less BTU's per gallon than gasoline.

When your sled injects X volume of fuel that is pure gasoline you will have a richer air fuel mixture than when it injects the same X volume of gasoline that has %10 ethanol in it.

Injecting a slightly larger volume of gasoline that has ethanol in it will for a specified air fuel ratio will "fix" the issue of the lower energy density of the ethanol laden fuel.

The higher the ethanol content of your gas the the leaner the engine will be running, the Ski Doo gas cap says %10 ethanol max, I imagine that up to %15 may be ok, but the reason Ski Doo doesn't want much ethanol in the gas is because it makes the sled run leaner and hotter.

jackbombay · Jan 10, 2018

Chadly said:
ethanol ignites sooner.

Ethanol has a very high octane rating, 110+. The higher the octane rating the slower the flame front propagates through the air fuel mixture, the higher the octane rating the more you can advance your ignition timing without getting detonation/pinging/knocking.

Knocking occurs when the flame front exceeds the speed of sound as it travels through the air/fuel mixture, once the flame front exceeds the speed of sound the rest of the air fuel mixture explodes instead of burning rapidly as it is supposed to do, that explosion shock loads the piston and rod, which is what makes the rotating assembly and block "ping" kind of like hitting it with a hammer.

Chadly · Jan 10, 2018

You're right I typed that wrong. Got retard confused with advanced ?

caper11 · Jan 10, 2018

Chadly said:
Ethanol is a way to oxygenate fuel. The timing needs to be retarded because ethanol ignites sooner. The whole making more power with oxygenated fuel is the dumbest thing I have heard. It surprises me someone who is working on fuel maps and/or aftermarket tuner would be completely retarded when it comes to fuel. Tell the guy to Google it. He probably would learn more in five minutes of reading than he has ever known. I would also suggest you research it a bit online too. It blows my mind how people are willing to post stuff looking like a complete Jack rabbit when you can easily self educate on the internet. :face-icon-small-con

Your wrong there you should be more open minded and do some research. I would not of posted this if I didnt do some reasearch on this. The question is, if a US engine or turbo builder is basing the box tune using a fuel that contains ethanol and sends his product to a place where there is no apparent ethanol content, is the consumer getting all the hp that the engine/turbo builder says.

Ever hear of the koenigsegg agera. On pump gas it makes about 800 hp. On e100 it makes 1100, ethanol fuels have a higher octane rating and flow better than race fuels with less chance of knock and detonation.

Read this. http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/04/everything-you-need-to-know-about-ethanol/

https://www.mnbiofuels.org/resources/facts-about-ethanol/ethanol-and-engine-performance

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Chadly · Jan 10, 2018

Straight Ethanol yes. Gas that's oxygenated no. Straight ethanol allows you to run higher boost and/or higher compression. Running oxygenated fuel in a high compression motor or something that has boost without proper timing is going to cause detonation. What you see at the pump is strictly for emissions not so you get more horsepower out of your engine...

jackbombay · Jan 10, 2018

caper11 said:
The question is, if a US engine or turbo builder is basing the box tune using a fuel that contains ethanol and sends his product to a place where there is no apparent ethanol content, is the consumer getting all the hp that the engine/turbo builder says.

If an ECU is tuned to run on gas with %10 ethanol and you put pure gasoline in it it will be running slightly richer, it may make more power like this, but it also may make less power, it depends how lean/rich the original tune is.

Gas with %10 ethanol has 111,836 BTU per gallon and pure gas has 114,000 BTU per gallon, so the difference is a touch less than %2, not really enough to make much difference either way IMO.

caper11 said:
...the koenigsegg agera. On pump gas it makes about 800 hp. On e100 it makes 1100, ethanol fuels have a higher octane rating and flow better than race fuels with less chance of knock and detonation.

Ethanol goes through the fuel pump more easily? The fuel pump can be sized to move as much gasoline as needed, the extra power that is made when running on ethanol is strictly due to the very high octane allowing a lot more boost pressure to be run and some additional ignition timing advancement.

This may make it sound like gas with %10 ethanol will make more power, but it doesn't, because when they add ethanol to fuel they add it to lower octane gas, so once the ethanol is added it comes up to the specified target, be it 87, 89, or 93, so the %10 ethanol does nothing to raise the octane rating of your gas because they started with lower octane fuel knowing they'd add an octane booster, ethanol.

caper11 · Jan 10, 2018

Chadly that I get, Ethanol fuel has higher octane than regular pump gas, E10 is about 2 points higher standard gas.
Dont get me wrong when I first heard this I got my back up cause I dont like what ethanol does to fuel systems.

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jackbombay · Jan 10, 2018

caper11 said:
Chadly that I get...

The previous post is mine.

caper11 said:
E10 is about 2 points higher standard gas.

higher octane fuel costs more to produce, so fuel suppliers will do their best to produce and supply fuel that barely meets the the number on the sticker on the pump, 87 octane fuel that has %10 ethanol is 87 octane. If you tok 87 octane gasoline with no ethanol in it and added ethanol to make it E10, it would go up to 89 octane or so, but that is not what fuel manufacturers do, they start with 85 octane and add ethanol to get 87, then they sell that to you.

I have ethanol free premium available locally so I don't have to worry about any of this though

Clutched Films · Jan 10, 2018

Ethanol & non

Fuel thies days sucks most guys I know run non ethanol I wouldn't want a hi hp sled to count on the ethonal. Ethanol draws moisture, moisture causes lots of trouble in a double stroke motor.

Chadly · Jan 11, 2018

Let's all not forget ethanol is about the most corrosive thing you could ever put in an engine as well! It's horrible for an application where the fuel is going to sit for more than a few days which happens in snowmobiles a lot. To get back to the regular topic though, an oxgynated fuel is not going to make anymore horse power. It's all how the engine running it is tuned. Hence the old Polaris had to be switched to what kind of fuel you were running. It sounds like the guy that is giving you this info isn't very educated on fuel.

Andystoy · Jan 20, 2018

To OP I purchased a Banks tuner for my 2016 6.0 l gas GMC and it has an E85 option which shows something like a 30Hp increase in Hp and torque but the truck can burn E85 from factory so it must have the factory programming which can detect and change timing and fuel injection duration?
Back to the sled application I use only premium (no ethanol) gasoline in the sled, quads, boat engine etc. To reduce the chance of phase separation during storage. My info is that Esso, Shell and Costco premium has no ethanol but that PetroCan and Mohawk use ethanol to get to 91 or 93+ octane in the Edmonton area.
I use regular with up to 10% ethanol in the truck which I know contributes to its poor gas mileage but haven't tried at least 2 tankfulls of premium back to back to see if it would be cost effective. Imo

powdermuncher · Jan 20, 2018

Yes a bit of topic, Ethanol fuels have poor fuel milage due to lower BTU per unit and it takes 2 barrels of fuel burned to produce one barrel of ethanol,so in total we burn more fuel and pollute more by using ethanol at all.:face-icon-small-dis Is it just me or does that not make any sense at all.

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Ethanol in fuel with aftermarket power tuners

caper11

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Chadly

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jackbombay

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jackbombay

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Chadly

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caper11

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Chadly

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jackbombay

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caper11

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Clutched Films

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Chadly

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