How much power at alt M1100T?

Jimb · Apr 28, 2011

Nytro math 101 from last year applied to 1100:

Sea level air pressure is 14.5
1100T / Z1 makes 12 psi at sea level = 177hp
Therefore absolute pressure for this motor is 26.5 psi

Now go up to 7000 ft so air pressure is 10.5psi so to get back to absolute pressure the turbo needs to build 26.5-10.5 or 16 psi = 177hp

From reading the dynotech pages the Z1 turbo put out a max 20psi at sea level making approx 237hp. If the turbo is maxed out at 20psi that means 10.5 + x to make = 26.2 or a sea level equivalent of 15.7psi boost, at dynotech that level of boost with a DD hijacker makes about 210hp.

So sure at sea level the turbo might make enough boost to show 240+ on the dyno but because it has to work way harder to pump up the motor in the thin alpine air 210 sea level hp at 7000ft is about it???

I see an aftermarket for a bigger turbo.

PS I was pretty happy with the power in a 180mcx this winter but it made 180hp at 6psi sea level and about 10 psi at 7000ft if I remember correctly, so 200+ in the 1100 should still be a great sled at 7000ft but man it must have a tiny turbo.

YETIms · Apr 29, 2011

your calculation is good but wrong.

AP = 14.7 psia
M1100T boost = 12 psi = 177hp (AC public hp)

@ 5000ft
AP = 12.2 psia
M1100T boost = 14.5 psi = 177hp (AC public hp)

@ 10000ft
AP = 10.1 psia
M1100T boost = 16.6 psi = 177hp (AC public hp)

Now lets forget those marketing numbers and move over to relistic numbers.

AP = 14.7 psia
M1100T boost = 12.4 psi = 177hp ( not really, that is only under really controled conditions) in reallity you have less then 177.

@ 5000ft
AP = 12.2 psia
M1100T boost = 14.0 psi = 171hp (hp drop, heat is the problem, and not only the heat, you are loosing much more hp if you ride relly hard.)

@ 10000ft
AP = 10.1 psia
M1100T boost = 16.0 psi = 167hp (heat is even mora problem, but boostpower is still available)

Tuning & Performance numbers

Rising boost is very popular, like HJ or reflash. and if you take those dynotech numbers you will see those are far away from being realistic

AP = 14.7 psia
M1100T boost = 20 psi = 237hp (net even close to a realistic number. with 20psi you can pust 250hp for few seconds, then you are loosing hp, a lot of hp, but before you even start having fun, you are going to burn down turbo shaft rings and if you are a lucky guy you go burn some oil.

@ 5000ft
AP = 12.2 psia
M1100T boost = 24.0 psi = 237hp (not realistic, the heat bocome a real problem and also the turbo is over-reving. and here i am not telling you anything about deto, oil and engine heat)

if you run 20psi at sealevel the turbo is spooling 133k rpm that is 40k more then allowed from the manufacturer.
also at 20psi the engine lifetime is very short. at 24psi you are spooling 65k over the manufacturer limit.

funny thing is, just take of the hose for the waste gate and you will see 300hp on dyno, but only for few seconds.
it is going to be a nice year with a lot of BS numbers posted by people.

Jimb said:
Nytro math 101 from last year applied to 1100:

Sea level air pressure is 14.5
1100T / Z1 makes 12 psi at sea level = 177hp
Therefore absolute pressure for this motor is 26.5 psi

Now go up to 7000 ft so air pressure is 10.5psi so to get back to absolute pressure the turbo needs to build 26.5-10.5 or 16 psi = 177hp

From reading the dynotech pages the Z1 turbo put out a max 20psi at sea level making approx 237hp. If the turbo is maxed out at 20psi that means 10.5 + x to make = 26.2 or a sea level equivalent of 15.7psi boost, at dynotech that level of boost with a DD hijacker makes about 210hp.

So sure at sea level the turbo might make enough boost to show 240+ on the dyno but because it has to work way harder to pump up the motor in the thin alpine air 210 sea level hp at 7000ft is about it???

I see an aftermarket for a bigger turbo.

PS I was pretty happy with the power in a 180mcx this winter but it made 180hp at 6psi sea level and about 10 psi at 7000ft if I remember correctly, so 200+ in the 1100 should still be a great sled at 7000ft but man it must have a tiny turbo.

Jeff C · Apr 29, 2011

then again, who f'ing cares

Turbo11T · Apr 29, 2011

Jeff C said:
then again, who f'ing cares

Alot more than a N/a motor is the proper answer.

Also Cat said 177 hp. If they don't produce that it is false advertising. So I am sure they it is going to be 177hp, maybe not when heat soaked but still. Nothing produces more power when heat soaked. Anothering thing to think about is it is possible that they have it figured out to make 177 hp once it is heat soaked and making much more before that. If you do the math 12lbs of boost at sea level should be more than 177 hp, even in a very conservative tune. "Most" of the dyno numbers you see are from 10-30 second dyno runs. Hardly enough time to heat soak an engine. Not to mention i am not scared of holding a 4 stroke wide open for minutes on end. A 2 stroke, hmmmm not so much.

Jimb · Apr 29, 2011

I don't get it either how 12psi only makes 177hp but i guess that is a function of the motor design vs a nytro making 180 with 6psi.

Looks like the limit of the stock turbo with a controller such as hijacker ez jacker etc is still 200-210 at 5-8k ft.

Rick! · Apr 29, 2011

Turbo583 said:
Alot more than a N/a motor is the proper answer.

Also Cat said 177 hp. If they don't produce that it is false advertising. So I am sure they it is going to be 177hp, maybe not when heat soaked but still. Nothing produces more power when heat soaked. Anothering thing to think about is it is possible that they have it figured out to make 177 hp once it is heat soaked and making much more before that. If you do the math 12lbs of boost at sea level should be more than 177 hp, even in a very conservative tune. "Most" of the dyno numbers you see are from 10-30 second dyno runs. Hardly enough time to heat soak an engine. Not to mention i am not scared of holding a 4 stroke wide open for minutes on end. A 2 stroke, hmmmm not so much.

It's not so much an engine hot soak thing as it is an intake charge heat thing. No fan on the intercooler at mountain climb speeds means hot intake charge after a few seconds. Hot intake charge means ECU throws fuel at it and reduces timing to avoid detonation. Smarter systems will also reduce boost. Hence, 177hp for a a short time, then degrading hp as intake air heats up. That's what Yeti was getting at.

Turbo11T · Apr 29, 2011

Rick! said:
It's not so much an engine hot soak thing as it is an intake charge heat thing. No fan on the intercooler at mountain climb speeds means hot intake charge after a few seconds. Hot intake charge means ECU throws fuel at it and reduces timing to avoid detonation. Smarter systems will also reduce boost. Hence, 177hp for a a short time, then degrading hp as intake air heats up. That's what Yeti was getting at.

Yep I agree and know this. I think some times it is a language barrier thing with what he is trying to get across.

Do you think a fan or a water to air system would help? I know the water to air system would add some weight but should give very consistant charge temps.

YETIms · Apr 29, 2011

very easy

fuel + air (boost) + ignition + chamber compression + engine design = power
power depend on mechanical heat, movement, and temperature.

AC engine was born with turbo charger.

Nytro engine was never made to run with a turbo, the engine desing it self is simply not made for a turbo application

Jimb said:
I don't get it either how 12psi only makes 177hp but i guess that is a function of the motor design vs a nytro making 180 with 6psi.

Looks like the limit of the stock turbo with a controller such as hijacker ez jacker etc is still 200-210 at 5-8k ft.

1Mike900 · May 1, 2011

Big twin = more low end and midrange torque. Big triple = more midrange top end power. Now add boost and see what really happens? A 4" cylinder has a harder time to get a full burn but does produce ample twist! Both have their benefits it is up to the user to extract it. Mike

jim · May 2, 2011

OK...I know there are some variables that might knock the power down but why wouldn't the sled sense the intake variables and adjust boot, spark and fuel for it to keep it at 177? Not tough. And I doubt they are on the edge of tune. I compared this motor size to a flat four STI turbo set-up. Pretty similar bore/stroke ratios and compression. I had a 05 for a bit and could run right at 20lbs on pump gas...and this with nothing special. Some run more. Point is, I don't see it being an issue for the motor to just push more boost to keep the HP up there...they shouldn't be that close to any detonation issue. Why not run close to 20lbs on this motor on pump gas? I'm sure the turbo guys will figure it out and maybe I'm completely wrong...but 13lbs, even with 100F intake air temps (no way) can't be close to detonating this motor and should have no issue making 177.

YETIms · May 3, 2011

snowmobile and car engiens are different,

on your STI you are using different airintake system, simply more air.

but anyway, cars are not sleds.

jim said:
OK...I know there are some variables that might knock the power down but why wouldn't the sled sense the intake variables and adjust boot, spark and fuel for it to keep it at 177? Not tough. And I doubt they are on the edge of tune. I compared this motor size to a flat four STI turbo set-up. Pretty similar bore/stroke ratios and compression. I had a 05 for a bit and could run right at 20lbs on pump gas...and this with nothing special. Some run more. Point is, I don't see it being an issue for the motor to just push more boost to keep the HP up there...they shouldn't be that close to any detonation issue. Why not run close to 20lbs on this motor on pump gas? I'm sure the turbo guys will figure it out and maybe I'm completely wrong...but 13lbs, even with 100F intake air temps (no way) can't be close to detonating this motor and should have no issue making 177.

high time · May 3, 2011

I'm trying to learn what you're saying, but from what...

I was told, the stock turbo can hold the Hp up to 200 or so to 10,000' with a reflash. How much boost is that ? I don't know, but I here it from the guys with the most time with it. And one of them has set the worlds fastest runs on one. The other designed it.

Owen

YETIms · May 3, 2011

by the way, world is huge, so having a fast sled in the area sounds realistic, having the fastest sled in the country, well we can think about it. but in the world?

what i would like to know is, how does that guys with that fast snoumobiles run their sleds at 10.000ft?
the AC 4 stroke was only used in z1, and there is no z1 on 10.000ft

also how they want to run a reflash on 10.000ft? the OEM ecu is a static ecu, so they have to run the eingine on dyno, and how do they simulate the air mix at 10k on the dyno?
there are some ways to do that but i am not sure if those guys own a dyno chamber for elevation tuning.

high time · May 3, 2011

Well search out who I'm taking about and see.

I don't want to drag them into this, but Yes, He has the worlds speed record at any elevation for a stock sled. I respect him. While we chat he's tuning the turbo Cats both stock and full mod. For the most part he is a flatlander, but he has gone to Fairview and beat the fastest sleds at least two out of five runs. That's more than I've ever done. I'll listen to him.

Owen

Turbo11T · May 3, 2011

YETIms said:
by the way, world is huge, so having a fast sled in the area sounds realistic, having the fastest sled in the country, well we can think about it. but in the world?

what i would like to know is, how does that guys with that fast snoumobiles run their sleds at 10.000ft?
the AC 4 stroke was only used in z1, and there is no z1 on 10.000ft

also how they want to run a reflash on 10.000ft? the OEM ecu is a static ecu, so they have to run the eingine on dyno, and how do they simulate the air mix at 10k on the dyno?
there are some ways to do that but i am not sure if those guys own a dyno chamber for elevation tuning.

Yeti the guy hightime is talking about it glen hall, and he is def undoubtly one of the fastest racers in the USA using the z1 turbo as a base.

I realize that you make it very clear you feel the stock turbo is not big enough at elevation to push any more hp. I would imagine that you have a compressor map for the exact turbo that is on the new 1100. Can you post this? Or specs for the compressor and turbine? This would give some hardcore evidence at where the turbo will be operating at 10000ft for everyone on here.

What are you thoughts on it actually making 177 hp like cat is advertising at 10000ft?

YETIms · May 3, 2011

it is not a respect thing, or bashing someone, i am happy to see fast sleds.
everyone can claim what ever they want. but i would keep it more realistic.
I am not starting here a pissing match, but there are so many people building fast and cool sleds around the globe, that claiming he is the fastest is a very risky claim.

few month ago "tech" people claim here, it is not possible to run more then 9psi on a m8 on sealevel, then a guy show up who is runing all day 12-14psi, whole day without deto. (!!sealevel)

2010 people talk about 140mph on z1 turbo and world record, and then someone post a video of japanese people runing in the amateru class 145mph on 1/4 mile.

the same stuff happen to SD 1200cc, canadia people blow it to 350-400hp, and then swedish guys show up with 500hp engines mounted in to a avarage gay ranagade,

IMHO the reall "world" record should be made by comparing fastest sleds from around the world, with same rules.

boostedballz · May 3, 2011

The factory turbo in the cat is not by any means on the ragged edge in stock formation. However it is starting to lose efficiency at higher altitudes to produce 170 ish hp. The efficiency loss and incresed intake air temps are not really a threat at the intended boost levels. However there is also a reason this machine didn't come out of the box at 200 + H.P. With the components they use these boost levels put the machine well in to a danger level that no manufacturer would warranty. I really hope that most of the guys wanting to slap a box on and run 240 + hp on pump fuel will be educated enough to know this is not realistic by the time these machines hit the snow. I know we will be moving a tonne of our turbo upgrade kits once the smoke and mirrors fade away and the limitations of this machine are made clear by an unfortunate few who find out the hard way.

LL

WyoBoy1000 · May 3, 2011

Someone needs to put a boost gauge on one and run it at 10000ft and see what its putting out

Jimb · May 3, 2011

?

14.7 sea level pressure

sea level boost is 12

Absolute pressure for motor is 26.7.

At 10000ft standard pressure is 10.1

26.7 - 10.1 = 16.5 psi to make 177hp.

jim · May 3, 2011

snowmobile and car engiens are different,

on your STI you are using different airintake system, simply more air.

but anyway, cars are not sleds.

? Fantastic points of argument. :face-icon-small-con Since you are in the know, curious what can the new M1100t can flow at 15PSI compared to the STI? And show us that compressor map! Cause it sounds like you know that it can work at elevation. (joking...kinda)

Like I said, I don't know but I can make some assumptions based on comparisons against bore/stroke, boost and compression ratios from other motors (motors are similar at the end of the day no matter what they are in). At the end of they day you have a combustion chamber with air at a certain pressure & temperature and fuel. 177HP at elevation is not that much of a stretch with a 9:1 1100cc motor and up probably around 15-16PSI (you lose 3 pounds at 10k ft). And remember, airplanes have turbos and work pretty dang well...food for thought.

It's all fun to watch it evolve at the end of the day...I remember several years back when guys were saying that there was no way a 1000cc Apex could make 300HP on pump gas...god they are fun at 300HP on pump gas.

How much power at alt M1100T?

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