a 2nd "YamaCat" joint venture (Apex) sled??

Deep Powder Guy · Oct 27, 2014

vector boy said:
If you look at the motors Yamaha is using in their sleds, it's a variation of something already in production. Ie: rx1/apex and the r1, phazer and yz250f motors. The Nytro is really the only one that's somewhat different. I see the fz-09 motor coming into a sled this year. The new r1 motor next year to replace the apex. But, the apex is going onto 10 years old now. Will they drop the 4cylinder line, or update the motor?

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I completely agree...It just seem a bit odd that Yamaha in there 4S sled line seems to bounce around more motors & jugs than the other manufactures....Cat, Doo & Poo live & Die by there 800cc...Yamaha lived & died by the R1 truly a mechanical beast but since the R1 they don't seem to have a flagship sled motor at least it appears that way....Before the R1 there 700 triple 2S was a flagship motor...Can't forget the Vmax 4 either.

Chit were already talking about possible new sleds while the 2015's are barley being unpacked.

DPG

BigFish BC · Oct 27, 2014

there is 3 new fz motors pick one the 7,8,9all will work the 849cc is supposed to be 15-20lbs lighter than the 1049 trip & makes 115hp n/a imagine that with a turbo.:face-icon-small-sho

christopher · Oct 27, 2014

There are PLENTY of new high tech engines in Yamaha's stable that they COULD choose to evolve into a sled motor.

Its anyone's guess which route they will go and WHEN they will do it.

motojunkie101 · Oct 27, 2014

OT, you are fishing pretty hard. Going on 8 model years with the same 1049cc engine now? Seems like a flagship motor to me and it really hasn't changed since 08. Compare that to any 800cc 2s, and tell me the internals haven't changed more than a few times in the last 8 years.

Plus anyone who thinks they will bring back a 2s in their sleds has lost their mind. Yamaha pioneered 4s motocross bikes and have done the same in the sled market.

Deep Powder Guy · Oct 28, 2014

I agree with you that yammies motor are in there own right flagship motors by every sense of the word....however the Vmax 4, R1 and even the 2s 700 were standout motors.... not to change the subject but I love offshore power boating and down here in SW Florida Yamaha dominates the water with there out boards. And hopefully one day Yamaha can do the same for sleds.

As for the 2s motor perhaps your correct....I'm not saying that Yamaha should drop there commitment to 4S.... I'm just suggesting a bad a$$ 2S 800 in a light weight chassis to keep up with today's consumer demand at least in the mountain segment....Build it better and they will come.

DPG

christopher · Oct 28, 2014

I think there is exactly ZERO chance of us seeing a 2S motor from Yamaha.
It just ain't gonna happen.

Deep Powder Guy · Oct 28, 2014

You just have to wonder if it wasn't for the Clinton/Gore threat to either shut done 2strokes or shut down national parks & lakes what the Yamaha snowmobile line up would look like.

They still make a YZ125 & 250 there's still some hope :face-icon-small-hap

DPG

M5- · Oct 28, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
You just have to wonder if it wasn't for the Clinton/Gore threat to either shut done 2strokes or shut down national parks & lakes what the Yamaha snowmobile line up would look like.

They still make a YZ125 & 250 there's still some hope :face-icon-small-hap

DPG

With Yamaha's commitment to the 4T it is interesting that they still make the YZ250 which IMO is a bargain.

M5

christopher · Oct 28, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
You just have to wonder if it wasn't for the Clinton/Gore threat to either shut done 2strokes or shut down national parks & lakes what the Yamaha snowmobile line up would look like.

They still make a YZ125 & 250 there's still some hope :face-icon-small-hap

DPG

Deep Powder Guy · Oct 28, 2014

My state of mind.LOL :face-icon-small-hap

DPG

goridedoo · Oct 28, 2014

WHY don't they make a 2 stroke!? Their sales would skyrocket if it was a decent motor, and they are plenty capable of that. Im not saying ditch 4 strokes (I know there are plenty of guys who love them and thats fine, but they just plain aren't for most) but just add one 2 stroke engine to compete in the 800 mountain class.

vector boy · Oct 28, 2014

goridedoo said:
WHY don't they make a 2 stroke!? Their sales would skyrocket if it was a decent motor, and they are plenty capable of that. Im not saying ditch 4 strokes (I know there are plenty of guys who love them and thats fine, but they just plain aren't for most) but just add one 2 stroke engine to compete in the 800 mountain class.

Yamaha has the capability of producing the lightest most powerful 2 stroke and still be reliable, but the minute it is release to the market they would be admitting failure. No 4 strokes aren't for everybody, but it's the same in sleds right now that mx bikes went through. Ktm, Yamaha, and Suzuki are the only ones with 2 strokes, and many still are going to 4 strokes, even for tight woods. You may not see it, or be too embarrassed to admit, but the world of snowmobiles is going to be 4 strokes before too long. And when that happens, Yamaha
Will be at the top. They have figured out what works, where to drop weight, and what will last. Others have given up, cat being the only one close to Yamaha in the mountain market for 4 strokes.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but people need to wake up and smell the roses. The 2 stroke days are numbered, and I know who will be on too when that day comes.

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Deep Powder Guy · Oct 28, 2014

I don't believe that has to be failure...Japanese manufactures are very sensitive to change the threat to 2 strokes under clinton/Gore was very real...They shifted in what everyone at the time believed was the right decision IMO it was....They will always be #1 in 4S sled technology and IMO will be welcomed back if they ever decide to re-introduced a competitive 2 stroke mountain sled.....Build It And They Will Come.

End of the day everything boils down to market appeal & cost to point of sale.

DPG

Deep Powder Guy · Oct 28, 2014

vector boy said:
Yamaha has the capability of producing the lightest most powerful 2 stroke and still be reliable, but the minute it is release to the market they would be admitting failure. No 4 strokes aren't for everybody, but it's the same in sleds right now that mx bikes went through. Ktm, Yamaha, and Suzuki are the only ones with 2 strokes, and many still are going to 4 strokes, even for tight woods. You may not see it, or be too embarrassed to admit, but the world of snowmobiles is going to be 4 strokes before too long. And when that happens, Yamaha
Will be at the top. They have figured out what works, where to drop weight, and what will last. Others have given up, cat being the only one close to Yamaha in the mountain market for 4 strokes.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but people need to wake up and smell the roses. The 2 stroke days are numbered, and I know who will be on too when that day comes.

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That might be true long term....But projecting out long term and making money today are to different things . In business you have today, tomorrow & the future.

DPG

goridedoo · Oct 28, 2014

vector boy said:
Yamaha has the capability of producing the lightest most powerful 2 stroke and still be reliable, but the minute it is release to the market they would be admitting failure. No 4 strokes aren't for everybody, but it's the same in sleds right now that mx bikes went through. Ktm, Yamaha, and Suzuki are the only ones with 2 strokes, and many still are going to 4 strokes, even for tight woods. You may not see it, or be too embarrassed to admit, but the world of snowmobiles is going to be 4 strokes before too long. And when that happens, Yamaha
Will be at the top. They have figured out what works, where to drop weight, and what will last. Others have given up, cat being the only one close to Yamaha in the mountain market for 4 strokes.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, but people need to wake up and smell the roses. The 2 stroke days are numbered, and I know who will be on too when that day comes.

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4 strokes may be the future, but 2 strokes are now. Right now we are all about power to weight(always will be), and 2 stroke wins that battle everytime. Again 4 Strokes do have their place... but I am betting that of all mountain sleds sold only 5-10% of them are 4 stroke. I don't see any reason for Yamaha to not produce a 2 two stroke in their line. I just feel like Yamaha could control a much larger percentage of mtn market if they produced a 2 stroke... and I think if they had a larger percentage of the market they would put more focus on building better sleds, which would in turn result in better, lighter, 4 strokes.

christopher · Oct 28, 2014

goridedoo said:
4 strokes may be the future, but 2 strokes are now. Right now we are all about power to weight(always will be), and 2 stroke wins that battle everytime. .

Ya, NOT SO MUCH in the real world.

Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 160 (2015 model at sea level)

Power to weight ratio = 3.08lbs per HP

(I list this just for base comparison, NO ONE is going to seriously ride a normally aspirated 4S Viper in the mountains, while the overwhelming majority of 2S riders do ride without a turbo. I am trying to honestly compare apples to apples here..I make NO argument that a boosted 2S will win until its engine fails)

Yamaha Viper 162
Wet weight = 595lbs (this is the only number we have so far)
Horsepower 125

Power to weight ratio = 4.76lbs per HP

Yamaha Viper 162 with OEM Turbo 6lbs Boost
Wet weight = 610lbs
Horsepower 180 (at all elevations)

Power to weight ratio = 3.38lbs per HP

Now lets take these two sleds up into the mountains and ride them at

6,000ft.
Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 132

Power to weight ratio = 3.73lbs per HP

8,000ft
Polaris Pro 162 800 RMK
Wet Weight 493lbs
Horsepower 121

Power to weight ratio = 4.07lbs per HP

Sharp · Oct 28, 2014

I love the power and reliability of a turbo 4 stroke. There is a market for them and will always been thanks to Yamaha. Two reason it's not more popular. Power to Weight ratio and cost. If it didn't cost a lot of money to change that ratio 4 stroke would be more popular. My next sled will cost me around 22k. I can get a 2 stroke for half that price. Most people don't have the money to put into a toy. If one could buy 240hp 4 stroke sled that cost 12k with factory 2 year warranty there would be more people buying them. Even at there current weight.

christopher · Oct 28, 2014

Sharp said:
I love the power and reliability of a turbo 4 stroke. There is a market for them and will always been thanks to Yamaha. Two reason it's not more popular. Power to Weight ratio and cost. If it didn't cost a lot of money to change that ratio 4 stroke would be more popular. My next sled will cost me around 22k. I can get a 2 stroke for half that price. Most people don't have the money to put into a toy. If one could buy 240hp 4 stroke sled that cost 12k with factory 2 year warranty there would be more people buying them. Even at there current weight.

While I seriously doubt we will see a 240hp factory sled any time soon, I do think we will see 180hp factory sleds perhaps this coming spring.

and as I laid out above, once you take the sled into the mountains to actually ride it, the entire Power to Weight argument falls flat on its face.

And a new viper with turbo can be found for about 16K without too much trouble.

motojunkie101 · Oct 28, 2014

I didn't pay 16k.

christopher · Oct 28, 2014

ATTA BOY!!

a 2nd "YamaCat" joint venture (Apex) sled??

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