Give me some KTM performance thoughts

Jaynelson · Nov 16, 2018

Haven't really been down this road, but exploring some options for higher HP for a client. Any thoughts on something along the lines of ....a Thumper Racing 520 kit on a 450SX-F. Vs a Raze ECU, exhaust and de-smog on a 500 EXC? Both would be new bikes....I am assuming the SX should have a performance advantage, but no idea how much. The 500 would have the advantage of maintaining the "factory seal" on the motor.

Not looking to get hung up on the transmission....but more on if people have ridden either, and if they were satisfied/unsatisfied with the upgrade. Or if there is another option worth looking at....FI is out of the budget.

Sheetmetalfab · Nov 16, 2018

Jaynelson said:
Haven't really been down this road, but exploring some options for higher HP for a client. Any thoughts on something along the lines of ....a Thumper Racing 520 kit on a 450SX-F. Vs a Raze ECU, exhaust and de-smog on a 500 EXC? Both would be new bikes....I am assuming the SX should have a performance advantage, but no idea how much. The 500 would have the advantage of maintaining the "factory seal" on the motor.

Not looking to get hung up on the transmission....but more on if people have ridden either, and if they were satisfied/unsatisfied with the upgrade. Or if there is another option worth looking at....FI is out of the budget.

Fwiw
I believe the 16-19 bikes get a 490 big bore from thumper racing.
12-15 have a 520 big bore available.

Revv Up · Nov 16, 2018

Have you checked out https://www.ktmandhusky.com/

They have some great stuff that just makes sense.

capulin overdrive · Nov 16, 2018

PR2 Racing should be considered for ECU.

I'd probably desmog the 500, run a PR2 ECU and make it back to lot every time.

CATSLEDMAN1 · Nov 17, 2018

ktm

my riding partner and I both ride 2013 KTM, mine a stock 500, his sx with thumper big bore kit. 4 years of riding every weekend. We just put a new piston in his bike a couple of weeks ago, pricey like $320 for kit and gasket.
Out in the snow his bike will out climb my slower rev'n 500, often in level pull in deep powder..... little difference. I like my wide ratio tranny and lazy high speed riding down a road, his bike has the edge in short burst out of trashy creek bottom and up a steep climb. He runs the box from the guys in Bozeman and he has alittle cleaner running bike. At the end of the day we use within a .1 of a gallon of the same amount of fuel. We both run heat exchangers and run 175-190 constant temps. 4 years minimal piston wear when we have changed both out, minor valve shim changes.

heliwrench · Nov 17, 2018

CATSLEDMAN1 said:
We both run heat exchangers and run 175-190 constant temps. 4 years minimal piston wear when we have changed both out, minor valve shim changes.

Are you running the stock thermostat on your 500 or a thermobob or avid? With the heat exchanger are you still running the rads or are they removed?

M5- · Nov 17, 2018

After my horrendous experiences with Thumper Racing my advice is no matter which way you go bike wise, keep the internals stock.

M5

powdermuncher · Nov 17, 2018

My experience as well, stock internals just go the distance -- some big bores are better than others, rule of thumb to me (if reliability is what you want) keep the engine stock. If you want big bore torque go get a 500 if you like long revving power get the 450. Exhaust intake and porting the head are all fair game with moderate gains and good reliability. Remember the last crop of MX bikes are as powerful stock as a 14 with mods

Jaynelson · Nov 17, 2018

CATSLEDMAN1 said:
my riding partner and I both ride 2013 KTM, mine a stock 500, his sx with thumper big bore kit. 4 years of riding every weekend. We just put a new piston in his bike a couple of weeks ago, pricey like $320 for kit and gasket.
Out in the snow his bike will out climb my slower rev'n 500, often in level pull in deep powder..... little difference. I like my wide ratio tranny and lazy high speed riding down a road, his bike has the edge in short burst out of trashy creek bottom and up a steep climb. He runs the box from the guys in Bozeman and he has alittle cleaner running bike. At the end of the day we use within a .1 of a gallon of the same amount of fuel. We both run heat exchangers and run 175-190 constant temps. 4 years minimal piston wear when we have changed both out, minor valve shim changes.

That is good stuff, thanks. I've always felt the 450's make a lot more drama than the 500's, but in a comparison they accomplish about the same stuff. The 500's just run in to the rev limiter fairly quick. An aftermarket ECU with higher rev limit does make sense in that regard, and then the factory exhaust and emissions are a known restriction.

Now....the 500 is a more expensive bike to start, and by the time you do that stuff, you are a good chunk more than a stock 450. So is there ENOUGH of a performance gain there to justify the extra cost of going that route? Tough call

capulin overdrive · Nov 17, 2018

Whatever year they updated the 500 engines (2018?), supposedly they have way more potential in them for ponies than the prior 500's.

ECU can bump up the rpm, but it's not going to be a bunch. Don't remember the numbers anymore, but would guess 500 more as tops, and maybe more like 250 or 300 more rpm. So maybe not enough for a nutjob that's used to bouncing a 450 off the rev limit?

500 is more upfront, but 6th sure is nice for trails. Wouldn't run either bike without an ECU upgrade, so that's a wash. So upfront cost, plus whatever one did for a pipe or can. Hell some people change the 450 exhaust, so could almost call that a wash.

Jaynelson · Nov 17, 2018

capulin overdrive said:
Whatever year they updated the 500 engines (2018?), supposedly they have way more potential in them for ponies than the prior 500's.

ECU can bump up the rpm, but it's not going to be a bunch. Don't remember the numbers anymore, but would guess 500 more as tops, and maybe more like 250 or 300 more rpm. So maybe not enough for a nutjob that's used to bouncing a 450 off the rev limit?

500 is more upfront, but 6th sure is nice for trails. Wouldn't run either bike without an ECU upgrade, so that's a wash. So upfront cost, plus whatever one did for a pipe or can. Hell some people change the 450 exhaust, so could almost call that a wash.

2,500 higher rev limit on the Raze they advertise. True, some people change a lot of stuff on a lot of bikes....for me, changing a 450 exhaust is a waste of time IMO. Expensive way to get a carbon end cap.

capulin overdrive · Nov 17, 2018

Will have to see if i can find my stuff for my PR2 ECU, but don't think he's going much higher over stock revs with his.

M5- · Nov 17, 2018

Jaynelson said:
2,500 higher rev limit on the Raze they advertise. True, some people change a lot of stuff on a lot of bikes....for me, changing a 450 exhaust is a waste of time IMO. Expensive way to get a carbon end cap.

Yup agreed. I'd probably see better gains from losing 10 lbs off my fat a$$ than adding a pipe.

M5

assaultn · Nov 17, 2018

You can add a 6 gear to an sxf 450 for about $300 in parts.

[QUOTE=capulin overdrive;4172764]Whatever year they updated the 500 engines (2018?), supposedly they have way more potential in them for ponies than the prior 500's.

ECU can bump up the rpm, but it's not going to be a bunch. Don't remember the numbers anymore, but would guess 500 more as tops, and maybe more like 250 or 300 more rpm. So maybe not enough for a nutjob that's used to bouncing a 450 off the rev limit?

500 is more upfront, but 6th sure is nice for trails. Wouldn't run either bike without an ECU upgrade, so that's a wash. So upfront cost, plus whatever one did for a pipe or can. Hell some people change the 450 exhaust, so could almost call that a wash.[/QUOTE]

assaultn · Nov 17, 2018

Sheetmetalfab said:
Fwiw
I believe the 16-19 bikes get a 490 big bore from thumper racing.
12-15 have a 520 big bore available.

Correct and the 490 is wayyy better than the 520. I've had both, the 520 behaves much like a 500. You have to short shift and really take advantage of the extra low end to notice a difference. The 490 is much more noticeable. Gains all across the rpm range. My 520 wouldn't hold a candle to my 490. It's unfortunate that a lot of people actually compare the two.

assaultn · Nov 17, 2018

M5- said:
After my horrendous experiences with Thumper Racing my advice is no matter which way you go bike wise, keep the internals stock.

M5

Thumper makes great parts, just don't get them to do any wrenching. Order parts, double check parts, triple check parts and assemble yourself. I wouldn't let those guys wrench on my lawnmower but if the product is right and properly set up it can be awesome! I believe this was where u ran into issues correct?

Sheetmetalfab · Nov 17, 2018

assaultn said:
Correct and the 490 is wayyy better than the 520. I've had both, the 520 behaves much like a 500. You have to short shift and really take advantage of the extra low end to notice a difference. The 490 is much more noticeable. Gains all across the rpm range. My 520 wouldn't hold a candle to my 490. It's unfortunate that a lot of people actually compare the two.

So i’ve heard.

Zad · Nov 17, 2018

I’ve got a pr2 racing vortex ignition module with switch for ktm ‘13 - ‘15 sxf sale in the swap meet section if interested. It also has two high fuel tunes for 520 big bores.

M5- · Nov 18, 2018

assaultn said:
Thumper makes great parts, just don't get them to do any wrenching. Order parts, double check parts, triple check parts and assemble yourself. I wouldn't let those guys wrench on my lawnmower but if the product is right and properly set up it can be awesome! I believe this was where u ran into issues correct?

It was a combination of things. First off they are hacks at Thumper Racing and don't take their time to do a good job, but the other issue is on a wide ratio bike the 520 piston takes out the stock KTM rod likely because you are revving the pi$$ out of the bike in 2nd gear all the time. The CP piston is a really nice piece and was fine, both of them. I loved the BB when the bike was on its wheels because the major gains are down low with added torque, you just keep on short shifting it which is easy on the con rod. On the snow the gains aren't nearly as obvious or useable, its a bit better than stock but not worth the money or drama.

When I bought my first BB Travis was telling me he had tons of BB snow bikes out there, when it blew up it was oh well its a snow bike what did you expect, quote "I don't see how this is my problem" even after they admitted to installing the wrong crank seals. Idiots.

M5

powdermuncher · Nov 18, 2018

450 is the best performing stock least money just ride it and see how much more you need KTM or YZ don't matter best baseline go from there. Big bore GYTR blabalbla better worse maybe. Just ride it first before you come up with a perceived need. Dialling in and using the right kit is way more crucial than 3 extra HP. Once your bike is dialled to slap a big bore on it is only an evening and a case of beer in the shop if you just have to have it later.
EXC will be a bunch more cost and work right of the bat , but it is a build in big bore pick your poison and run with it.

Give me some KTM performance thoughts

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