Survival gear list

Ox · Dec 30, 2018

WestWAsleder said:
I'm not sure if you are missing this or I'm just not following you.

Melting does in fact take extra energy. Any time there is a change of state either ice to water or water to steam you have latent heat. It takes 1 btu to raise the temperature of 1lb of water 1 degree, but it takes 144 btu's to change state of 1lb ice to water or vice versa. Steam is even higher at 970 btu's.

Bottle in the bibs vs internally I can't speak to although I wonder if it has to do with the fact your body is always giving off waste heat but if you ingest the water it is now using energy specifically to warm up the ice/snow. Of course warming it up on a fire would be best but eating frozen water definitely burns considerably more calories than even 33 degree water.

Ok, so I am interested in this.
144 x the energy to change state just seems AWFULLY high value -considering how frequently the puddles in my drive change state, and now little my drink cools down.

Maybe you are just fishing to see if I'd bite?

My quick research shows that it takes 334 joules per gram to raise the temp of water one degree.

While I found that the energy required to change state is 419 J/G.

So that is 25% more energy for that slight point of transformation from solid to liquid, not 14,400%.

I have never studied this before, so if I am getting bad formulas from the web, or my
math is buggered in any way, please correct me. I seriously would be interested.

My info sources:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-work-energy-d_292.html

https://www.thoughtco.com/heat-of-fusion-melting-ice-problem-609498

Of course, if you, or someone in your group is chilled, and you are able to warm it up to coffee type temps, that would Shirley help to warm them up. I was only commenting on the solid/liquid thing as anytime that I have seen that brought up - I always git the impression that they feel like 33* water is so much better for you than snow, and I am only challenging that aspect.

---------------

edit:

I thought that Joules was a much bigger measurement of energy.
Don't they rate lightening in joules?
I'm a little more at home with KVA. :face-icon-small-blu

.

slyrydr · Dec 30, 2018

inreach and spots work well, have used both for serious injuries for others in group....fire starting, i have two butane torches, one small, one medium sized, good thing about them, they have a windproof hot flame about an inch long that burns until i turn it off....cotton balls soaked in vaseline burn for several minutes....i have a 3 wick survival candle in a tin container about the size of two tobacco chew containers....i have a good quality storm parka that packs really tight to put on under my goretex shell, i've spent a night with that and no fire, but had water and snacks, and a can of sardines in olive oil provides the protein and fat that will get you through a night....i started packing a jetboil backpacking stove that heats water and soup mix, less than 2 lbs....several granola type bars that are high calorie, no cook, but need water to hydrate your body....heating a quart of water and putting it inside parka will make your whole body warm, which may have been the edge that saved my wife and i once upon a time a number of years ago....a couple of small led flashlites with extra batteries really help in the dark....something to cut firewood....it also helps to cut several green tree branches or small green trees as a fire base so it doesn't melt the snow under the fire....spending a night winter camping gives an invaluable experience base in what you need to live, maybe for a couple of days....and remember, your best survival asset is an innovative brain...:face-icon-small-hap

gonehuntnpowder · Dec 30, 2018

My advice would be to try it out. Stop several times a winter and build a fire using the resources you carry with you. Maybe build a snow cave. Melt some snow. Figure out what works and what doesn't before it is critical.

Coldfinger · Dec 31, 2018

Interesting, I didn't know it takes more energy for ice to change states (ie - ice to water) than it does to raise the temp 1 degree C of an equivalent amount of water.

If my calculations are correct, it takes roughly 3 times the calories to convert ice to body temp vs taking 32 degree water to body temp.

https://www.school-for-champions.com/science/heat_ice_steam.htm#.XCogK1VKhtQ

WestWAsleder · Dec 31, 2018

Ox said:
Ok, so I am interested in this.
144 x the energy to change state just seems AWFULLY high value -considering how frequently the puddles in my drive change state, and now little my drink cools down.

Maybe you are just fishing to see if I'd bite?

My quick research shows that it takes 334 joules per gram to raise the temp of water one degree.

While I found that the energy required to change state is 419 J/G.

So that is 25% more energy for that slight point of transformation from solid to liquid, not 14,400%.

I have never studied this before, so if I am getting bad formulas from the web, or my
math is buggered in any way, please correct me. I seriously would be interested.

My info sources:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heat-work-energy-d_292.html

https://www.thoughtco.com/heat-of-fusion-melting-ice-problem-609498

Of course, if you, or someone in your group is chilled, and you are able to warm it up to coffee type temps, that would Shirley help to warm them up. I was only commenting on the solid/liquid thing as anytime that I have seen that brought up - I always git the impression that they feel like 33* water is so much better for you than snow, and I am only challenging that aspect.

---------------

edit:

I thought that Joules was a much bigger measurement of energy.
Don't they rate lightening in joules?
I'm a little more at home with KVA. :face-icon-small-blu

.

No fishing or trolling here. I'm better at understanding than I am explaining. This link below has the best explanation I can find.

https://www.coastalclimatecontrol.com/index.php/blog/168-making-sense-of-latent-heat.html

It is in BTU's which makes more sense to me than Joules or Calories as I work in the refrigeration field but I'm guessing it's also the most relate able for people in the U.S.

Your average house has a 2-5 ton heat pump or A/C unit so that is 24k-60k Btu's if that helps put things in perspective. Latent heat of vaporization is why a heat pump is more efficient than an electric furnace even though they both use electricity.

A 20 lb cylinder of propane is about 366,000 Btu's

Another interesting fact the above does not mention is it only takes half the Btu's to change the temperature of ice as it does water.

Big10inch · Dec 31, 2018

I would be curious to know how you get stuck in the woods for days. I used to pack stuff for overnights but I am not sure I would ever even need that much. You must be riding in some seriously remote areas to get stuck for days. I might end up with a 10-12 mile hike to the truck but on the groomed trail that should only take a few hours.

We have hauled out dead sleds and injured riders, still never had to spend a night out. We have left sleds behind and doubled up to get out. 4-5 days and the best plan you had was to sit and freeze? Just having trouble with that one...

Last Feb when I crashed my sled and it needed towed, we just started a fire and waited while two others rode out and grabbed tow ropes etc from the truck. It was getting dark towards the end but still, we got the job done with teamwork. I mean, unless everybody got hurt at the same time miles from nowhere, how do you end up in these situations? Must be some really bad decision making going on.

Ox · Dec 31, 2018

Coldfinger said:
Interesting, I didn't know it takes more energy for ice to change states (ie - ice to water) than it does to raise the temp 1 degree C of an equivalent amount of water.

If my calculations are correct, it takes roughly 3 times the calories to convert ice to body temp vs taking 32 degree water to body temp.

https://www.school-for-champions.com/science/heat_ice_steam.htm#.XCogK1VKhtQ

Well that is completely diff formulas than I found!
???

So - 0*C to 36*C = 36 calories
0* ice to 0* water = 80 cal
-10* ice to 0* ice = 5 cal

According to this chart - his 144x is not that far off if you are comparing to the average of .75 cal/*C for ice/water. (comes out to 107x, but..)

Now - why does this site say that it takes 80x as much energy, when the site(s) that I pulled up say 1.25x as much?

???

.

Ox · Dec 31, 2018

WestWAsleder said:
No fishing or trolling here. I'm better at understanding than I am explaining. This link below has the best explanation I can find.

https://www.coastalclimatecontrol.com/index.php/blog/168-making-sense-of-latent-heat.html

It is in BTU's which makes more sense to me than Joules or Calories as I work in the refrigeration field but I'm guessing it's also the most relate able for people in the U.S.

Your average house has a 2-5 ton heat pump or A/C unit so that is 24k-60k Btu's if that helps put things in perspective. Latent heat of vaporization is why a heat pump is more efficient than an electric furnace even though they both use electricity.

A 20 lb cylinder of propane is about 366,000 Btu's

Another interesting fact the above does not mention is it only takes half the Btu's to change the temperature of ice as it does water.

Well, that guy is good at keeping your attention. Not dry reading!

OK, so I went back and dbl checked the sites that I cited, as well as the others posted here, and I found my errors.

One site is 80x, the other is 144x.
The diff is one is *F and the other is *C which is 1.8/1 and comes out perfectly.

Also, on my original math I missed that the one sample was in kg and not simply g. I don't know why they would not keep things at the least common denominator?

So that 419 is actually 4.19 which then comes out to the 80 value.

SO - There are two things to learn here:

A) It does take a lot more to change state than to raise temp!

B) I should have actually researched it first!
I knew that there was some energy required to change state, but would have never guessed nearly that much!

and actually one third thing as well:

C) My Sunday math (reading?) skills leave a wee bit to be desired.

Thank you for your re-direction!
But it took me a bit to figger out how I was getting 144 here and 80 there.

One other thing that came to my mind while comparing these different sites - is that this very phenomenon is Shirley what keeps our planet so stable in temp. Any changes up or down get absorbed into increasing or decreasing the poles with the state of ice at the 80/144x rate, and not 1 / 1.
Now - should the ice all go away - we would be in a world of hurt! (be at direct 1/1 ratio)

Thank you both, very good read!

.

Tc262 · Dec 31, 2018

I wanted a Garmin Inreach Mini but ended up ordering a inreach Se for a smokin deal from Costco. $225.00

If you ride from a parking lot I've heard a great idea to leave a small dry erase board in your dash. Write the areas or direction you're planning on riding, number of people in your group, time and date, etc

Not a complete list but a few things I carry... food, half dozen or so granola bars, beef jerky, and a bag of trail mix. Aluminum water bottle with a wide mouth that I can pack full of snow to melt. Micro torch. Emergency Foil blanket. A couple small ratchet straps. Silky saw. I have about 8 feet of duct tape wrapped around the handle of my shovel.

I'm pretty new to backcountry riding so I'm still working on the list, hoping I don't have to rely on survival tools but I'm trying to prepare for the worst.

revrider07 · Dec 31, 2018

Big10inch said:
I would be curious to know how you get stuck in the woods for days. I used to pack stuff for overnights but I am not sure I would ever even need that much. You must be riding in some seriously remote areas to get stuck for days. I might end up with a 10-12 mile hike to the truck but on the groomed trail that should only take a few hours.

We have hauled out dead sleds and injured riders, still never had to spend a night out. We have left sleds behind and doubled up to get out. 4-5 days and the best plan you had was to sit and freeze? Just having trouble with that one...

Last Feb when I crashed my sled and it needed towed, we just started a fire and waited while two others rode out and grabbed tow ropes etc from the truck. It was getting dark towards the end but still, we got the job done with teamwork. I mean, unless everybody got hurt at the same time miles from nowhere, how do you end up in these situations? Must be some really bad decision making going on.

You must be in pretty good shape to walk 10 to 12 miles in a few hours or on a highway. Helped some lion hunters in wy last year they were about 20 miles from truck when there side by side with tracks broke down on trail they were at mile 10 and had walked for about 5 hours. We had belt that would get them going they were pretty grateful they had not seen anyone else that morning. So yes there are some of us that ride remote areas. Very seldom see any people here during the week. Weather changes rapidly in different areas also. One of the best things you can do is leave a detailed plan where you plan to ride each day with someone and when you should return.

Big10inch · Jan 1, 2019

revrider07 said:
You must be in pretty good shape to walk 10 to 12 miles in a few hours or on a highway. Helped some lion hunters in wy last year they were about 20 miles from truck when there side by side with tracks broke down on trail they were at mile 10 and had walked for about 5 hours. We had belt that would get them going they were pretty grateful they had not seen anyone else that morning. So yes there are some of us that ride remote areas. Very seldom see any people here during the week. Weather changes rapidly in different areas also. One of the best things you can do is leave a detailed plan where you plan to ride each day with someone and when you should return.

I think I am in plenty good enough shape to cover 3-4 miles an hour once down on the groomed trail. Living at 8000 ft probably helps. Even with your example, I would make a 5-6 hr walk before spending 4 days in the backcountry during winter. I always let people know when/where we are going. My favorite area is also remote and unpopular with most winter users. It is a good dozen miles off the highway on gravel, then forest service dirt roads, followed by 10 miles of trail to the riding area. Still doesn't explain how you end up spending days in the woods...

One of your best instruments of survival is keeping your machine in good shape. Guys that show up with mud covered ten year old sleds do not inspire confidence, I would rather not ride into the woods with those guys either.

free2fawl · Jan 1, 2019

911

A lost friend of mine called 911 from the Pearl Creek area about 12-15 miles north of McCall ID. No service in most of that area. After hours of searching I shut my sled off one more time and listened for hers. The 911 operator just happened to call me while my sled was off. Even without service the operator had her position, acquired mine during the first phone call and guided me straight to her. Can't say it works everywhere but a good thing to know.

Ox · Jan 1, 2019

free2fawl said:
A lost friend of mine called 911 from the Pearl Creek area about 12-15 miles north of McCall ID. No service in most of that area. After hours of searching I shut my sled off one more time and listened for hers. The 911 operator just happened to call me while my sled was off. Even without service the operator had her position, acquired mine during the first phone call and guided me straight to her. Can't say it works everywhere but a good thing to know.

WOW!
That is unbelievable!

.

revrider07 · Jan 1, 2019

Big10inch said:
I think I am in plenty good enough shape to cover 3-4 miles an hour once down on the groomed trail. Living at 8000 ft probably helps. Even with your example, I would make a 5-6 hr walk before spending 4 days in the backcountry during winter. I always let people know when/where we are going. My favorite area is also remote and unpopular with most winter users. It is a good dozen miles off the highway on gravel, then forest service dirt roads, followed by 10 miles of trail to the riding area. Still doesn't explain how you end up spending days in the woods...

One of your best instruments of survival is keeping your machine in good shape. Guys that show up with mud covered ten year old sleds do not inspire confidence, I would rather not ride into the woods with those guys either.

Living at 8000 feet puts you at a big advantage. I have lived at that elevation it's really amazing the difference. I would think someone could find me in a day with preparations I do. But always some freak event could happen. Spending any more than one night would be very challenging for most. Had a guy that rode with me a couple of times that was worried about a water bottle weighting him down. He does not get invited anymore.

slyrydr · Jan 1, 2019

Big10inch said:
I think I am in plenty good enough shape to cover 3-4 miles an hour once down on the groomed trail. Living at 8000 ft probably helps. Even with your example, I would make a 5-6 hr walk before spending 4 days in the backcountry during winter. I always let people know when/where we are going. My favorite area is also remote and unpopular with most winter users. It is a good dozen miles off the highway on gravel, then forest service dirt roads,- followed by 10 miles of trail to the riding area. Still doesn't explain how you end up spending days in the woods...

One of your best instruments of survival is keeping your machine in good shape. Guys that show up with mud covered ten year old sleds do not inspire confidence, I would rather not ride into the woods with those guys either.

....a little jig in your thought process, how far can you walk with a semi-serious injury....broke leg, or severely wrenched ankle, or my friend, broke back from dropping a small cornice...list goes on for potential reasons you may get anchored in one spot....and 3-4 miles an hour is a pretty good speed on dry ground, you'll do far less than that on most snow trails, and essentially nothing in deep untracked snow....i found/rescued a guy once that had spent 5 hours backtracking his own trail, but had made less than a mile of the 15 he needed to get out, and he was early thirties and not overweight and an experienced hiker....but we all have our lives to live, but i'm not going sell mine cheap, so i prepare like my life may depend on it..:face-icon-small-hap

Ox · Jan 1, 2019

slyrydr said:
....a little jig in your thought process, how far can you walk with a semi-serious injury....broke leg, or severely wrenched ankle, or my friend, broke back from dropping a small cornice...list goes on for potential reasons you may get anchored in one spot....and 3-4 miles an hour is a pretty good speed on dry ground, you'll do far less than that on most snow trails, and essentially nothing in deep untracked snow....i found/rescued a guy once that had spent 5 hours backtracking his own trail, but had made less than a mile of the 15 he needed to get out, and he was early thirties and not overweight and an experienced hiker....but we all have our lives to live, but i'm not going sell mine cheap, so i prepare like my life may depend on it..:face-icon-small-hap

Yeah, He may be up to it, but I'm not gunna make 15 miles in 4 hours in my winter garb even on a packed trail.

We have hiked 5 miles in our trench before in the middle of the night, and we stopped frequently to rest (we already had a full day in before we started walking) and we made 8 klicks in prolly 8-10 hours. I'd say that we hiked maybe 40% of the time? We started walking around midnight I think, and we made the hut soon after sun-up.

Hike = warm and tired.
Plop down in comfy snowbank and fall ratt to sleep.
Wake up cold and get up and doo it aggin.

.. and we were 30 yrs old and at 1500' alt in beautifull weather, just deep snow outside of our trench.

edit:

One item that I personally think is very important - and that is that you keep your helmet on or with you!

When we did our hike, I kept my helmet, my chum left his at the sled.
I got winded much more easilly as my breathing was a bit more restricted. (face mask on as well - so that I didn't huff that cold air)
After we got home a few days later - he missed a cpl days of werk b/c he had acute bronchitis.
I was fine.

Huffin' that cold air (and it was NOT cold when we had our little escapade!) can take it's tole.
Also - that helmet is warm and dry.
Also - you're likely gunna be getting a lift on another snowmachine to get back in and retrieve your sleds.
You might want your helmet then, and not hafta pack an extra back out.

With that said - I too don't understand why they stayed put for 3 days before finally making contact.

.

AZ800 · Jan 2, 2019

Big10, you have a few valid points, but your presumption that you can skip back down to the groomed trail and jog out either means you don't really ride back country or you don't really ride back country.

Which reminds me, snowshoes are pretty close to the top of my list when getting very far off trail, if in unfamiliar areas or places not likely to meet other riders.

I can think of a half dozen somewhat likely scenarios that wouldn't have you walking out very far or very fast and they both have 2 things in common. Deep snow and mountains. Drop down into a bowl or draw with a couple feet of fresh, have virtually any issue that doesn't let you ride a 150hp escalator out and see how far you get on foot.
Fortunately I've never been on the receiving end of one of those situations, but have helped a couple people out of them that would not have made it back to the trail on their own. Generally they were just ill prepared for what they got into, nothing super serious like a bad injury, but that's the point of this thread. To be prepared.

Mafesto · Jan 2, 2019

I can't believe nobody's packin a jet pack.

At least then you could zip into town for fresh socks and Fireball.

Big10inch · Jan 2, 2019

slyrydr said:
....a little jig in your thought process, how far can you walk with a semi-serious injury....broke leg, or severely wrenched ankle, or my friend, broke back from dropping a small cornice...list goes on for potential reasons you may get anchored in one spot....and 3-4 miles an hour is a pretty good speed on dry ground, you'll do far less than that on most snow trails, and essentially nothing in deep untracked snow....i found/rescued a guy once that had spent 5 hours backtracking his own trail, but had made less than a mile of the 15 he needed to get out, and he was early thirties and not overweight and an experienced hiker....but we all have our lives to live, but i'm not going sell mine cheap, so i prepare like my life may depend on it..:face-icon-small-hap

Are you riding alone? I almost always have at least one capable riding partner. So unless both sleds go down, or both get hurt at the same time, there is a safety net. Choosing riding partners wisely is a big deal to me as well. I always go with somebody from the "A" riders group especially if we have a bunch of "B" riders along.

Everybodies situation is different as well. I ride the same area pretty much exclusively so we know the terrain, know where others are riding, know the way out of necessary. I also have the luxury of calling in a group of capable locals if it goes bad. We have taken injured riders out of some serious back country. My one buddy dislocated his shoulder pretty badly, took a few hours but we got him out with no issues.

Spending the night would really be a last resort and after over 15 years of riding the mtns and never having to stay out overnight, I worry about it a lot less and admittedly do not pack nearly as much gear as I used to. If I was riding unfamiliar areas, I would pack a lot more.

Big10inch · Jan 2, 2019

AZ800 said:
Big10, you have a few valid points, but your presumption that you can skip back down to the groomed trail and jog out either means you don't really ride back country or you don't really ride back country.

Is that what it means...LOL I would be willing to bet all the beer you can drink after the ride that the terrain I ride is more extreme than what you have in Washington. One of my main riding partners is from that area and has many times marveled at how much more extreme the terrain in SW Colorado is than it was in Washington. Come on down, I will show you some back country riding...

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