W
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Environmentalism as a Religion
- Thread starter Wade
- Start date
Ya, that's right, I experienced it first hand. damnit
Was watching the tv about a month ago and watched a rather interesting show. It was about enviromentalism and it's changing views.
They actually talked about how the enviros have more and more moved away from managing the enviroment and more towards the extreme view of doing nothing and waiting to see what happens. Let mother nature takes it cource.
They then started pointing out how that doens't work.
The thing that struck me about the show (aside from the fact it was even allowed to be aired) was the fact they were actually pointing out facts.
Things like how forest fires in wilderness areas are on average 4 times worse than forests that are managed.
Enviro-zealots, like everything else, swings from one side to another.
take the 40's and 50's. It was all about industry. They could do whatever they wanted, how ever they wanted and when ever they wanted.
Then you have now. YOu can't sneeze without some enviro-zealot screaming about how you are spewing toxins into the air.
It will take some catastropic event to wake enough people up. I hope it is not too bad when it comes, it will come, there is no doubt. It may be a forest fire that is so out of control it burns a town down, I don't know. But it WILL happen.
They actually talked about how the enviros have more and more moved away from managing the enviroment and more towards the extreme view of doing nothing and waiting to see what happens. Let mother nature takes it cource.
They then started pointing out how that doens't work.
The thing that struck me about the show (aside from the fact it was even allowed to be aired) was the fact they were actually pointing out facts.
Things like how forest fires in wilderness areas are on average 4 times worse than forests that are managed.
Enviro-zealots, like everything else, swings from one side to another.
take the 40's and 50's. It was all about industry. They could do whatever they wanted, how ever they wanted and when ever they wanted.
Then you have now. YOu can't sneeze without some enviro-zealot screaming about how you are spewing toxins into the air.
It will take some catastropic event to wake enough people up. I hope it is not too bad when it comes, it will come, there is no doubt. It may be a forest fire that is so out of control it burns a town down, I don't know. But it WILL happen.
I've often thought of similar comparisons .... people "believe" this and yet they have absolutley no idea why, other than it makes them "feel better".
Guess Al Gore is now Neuvo Jesus
Guess Al Gore is now Neuvo Jesus
B
Crichton throws out an interesting concept, that would explain a lot of greens thinking. It is tough to talk someone out of their belief system, but it is possible to reveal that parts of what they beleive have no basis in fact. Point in fact is WingNut Racings thread the other day with the greenie in the bar. If we can get some people to question their "facts", then we can at least have a fun discussion. I really don't think that I'm going to talk some of my backcountry skier freinds into buying snowmobiles, and that's fine.
That being said, most environmental issues are decided by government agencies, courts and elected representatives. The people are bombarded with "public commnets", conflicting data on environmental studies and threats of lawsuits. Groups like earthjustice, bluewater, greater yellowstone coalition, sierra club and others simply don't beleive in comprimise. They want it all, every time. There can be no reasonable solutions with these groups because they exist only to lobby and sue for their causes, and if there is a reasonable solution, then they will be back next year to try to regain what they percieve that they have lost. Take a look at the Snowmobile in Yellowstone lawsuit just filed (again) this year.
Rant over.
That being said, most environmental issues are decided by government agencies, courts and elected representatives. The people are bombarded with "public commnets", conflicting data on environmental studies and threats of lawsuits. Groups like earthjustice, bluewater, greater yellowstone coalition, sierra club and others simply don't beleive in comprimise. They want it all, every time. There can be no reasonable solutions with these groups because they exist only to lobby and sue for their causes, and if there is a reasonable solution, then they will be back next year to try to regain what they percieve that they have lost. Take a look at the Snowmobile in Yellowstone lawsuit just filed (again) this year.
Rant over.
W
This leads me to my second position.
Environmentalism as a religion: The first amendment is suppose to protect me from establishment by the government, of a preferred religion. Another words, non-scientifically justifiable, or socially justifiable positions can not be taken by the government, in preference to one group's belief or faith over another group's opposing belief or faith.
For example:
You shouldn't force Jewish people to follow Christian beliefs, such as not working on the sabbath. IMO.
You shouldn't shut snowmobilers out of the National Forest, without a clear and justifiable, all inclusive need. And, I think we are orders of magnitude away from anything that approaches that kind of justification.
Examples if justifiable positions would be: (IMO)
You should limit children's Lead and Mercury intake. Most people accept these heavy metals are harmful, and do not impinge upon a great number of peoples rights, by removing them from toys and paint.
In the same way, you could argue that snowmobiles have no business chasing large animals in their wintering grounds. And, you can argue that snowmobiles should limit sound and emission outputs, up to a reasonable point.
Environmentalism as a religion: The first amendment is suppose to protect me from establishment by the government, of a preferred religion. Another words, non-scientifically justifiable, or socially justifiable positions can not be taken by the government, in preference to one group's belief or faith over another group's opposing belief or faith.
For example:
You shouldn't force Jewish people to follow Christian beliefs, such as not working on the sabbath. IMO.
You shouldn't shut snowmobilers out of the National Forest, without a clear and justifiable, all inclusive need. And, I think we are orders of magnitude away from anything that approaches that kind of justification.
Examples if justifiable positions would be: (IMO)
You should limit children's Lead and Mercury intake. Most people accept these heavy metals are harmful, and do not impinge upon a great number of peoples rights, by removing them from toys and paint.
In the same way, you could argue that snowmobiles have no business chasing large animals in their wintering grounds. And, you can argue that snowmobiles should limit sound and emission outputs, up to a reasonable point.
[QUOTE=Wade;16804
You should limit children's Lead and Mercury intake.
Nice quote, then AL GORE needs to deal with all of the funny lightbulbs that I have installed in my home. Mercury is a major issue in Nevada, and will always be a problem. But in the name of Global Warming, which AL GORE is going to make $100,000,000.00 from this year alone we all need to stop using regular light bulbs.
Why is OK to harvest timber in Canada but not the US?
Why is it now OK to have controlled burns, but not have a fireplace in your home? (at least where I live) By the way that smoke does contribute to Global Warming( ha ha)
Why does the Tahoe Reginal Planning Agency, all of the sudden change their rulling on cutting tree's in one's yard after 250 plus homes were destroyed in the Angora Fire?
The point of the this post was to figure the treehuggers are a religon, and you know what the autor of this post is right. But it's okay to drive a Subaru which burn oil and gas? It is a religion, it is so serious that Harry Reid(loser from Nevada) believes it more then his own religion.
You should limit children's Lead and Mercury intake.
Nice quote, then AL GORE needs to deal with all of the funny lightbulbs that I have installed in my home. Mercury is a major issue in Nevada, and will always be a problem. But in the name of Global Warming, which AL GORE is going to make $100,000,000.00 from this year alone we all need to stop using regular light bulbs.
Why is OK to harvest timber in Canada but not the US?
Why is it now OK to have controlled burns, but not have a fireplace in your home? (at least where I live) By the way that smoke does contribute to Global Warming( ha ha)
Why does the Tahoe Reginal Planning Agency, all of the sudden change their rulling on cutting tree's in one's yard after 250 plus homes were destroyed in the Angora Fire?
The point of the this post was to figure the treehuggers are a religon, and you know what the autor of this post is right. But it's okay to drive a Subaru which burn oil and gas? It is a religion, it is so serious that Harry Reid(loser from Nevada) believes it more then his own religion.
I have noticed that the enviros are going after sportsman HARD. With hunting and fishing it is all about the habitat and always has been, but the enviros are now using their extreme doomsday predictions of rapid habitat loss to try to drag hunters and fishermen into their corner. And it's working somewhat. Too bad so few are seeing the real cause of habitat loss - development.
Oh god I know, you should see the billboards they put up all over Wyoming with the "We are Nature's Body Guards, and yes We're heavily Armed" and whatnot...
I got something stupid from them in the mail awhile back and I just pitched it.
I think Creighton has an excllent article. If there were no politics involved in this whole environmentalism thing, I'd be all for it, but it simply isn't the case.
it upsets me so many people think voting democrat means voting to "save the planet" which is so far from the case it's just astounding.
It also makes me mad how so many people think just shutting off millions of acres of land or buying "green products" or whatever is gonna do anything.
It's like health food. yeah, it's "healthier" but when you still eat 3x as much as you should what good does it do?
N
-for some reason the word m o r a l is censored, so that is what m**** is when you see the funny stars.
What can you say to the points noted except "Amen". It is fairly interesting that the new "m**** code" of the liberal is earth centered. I totally agree with the statement correlating the environmental movements deisre to force their m**** code on everyone with a type of forced religion. After all, we are really talking about control of thoughts and actions. They are trying to legislate their m****s into law, and they do not care about the consequence. Make no mistake, one need not believe that they are truly trying to save the earth. After all, most of these people live in large cities, and really have very little contact with the realities on the ground. They are not the caretakers. They are really just zealots trying to make themselves feel good about something. I work as a facilitator in meetings between stakeholders on natural resource issues, and it is imperative that people who value the right to decide for themselves, and use for themselves respect and work with each other. Snowmobilers need ranchers in their corner, ranchers need industry, industry needs other recreationists. We really need to communicate and respect each other or we will end up with people in L. A. telling us what we can and can't do. And that will be an environmental disaster. If in doubt, ask why they all want to leave and move to Wyoming.
What can you say to the points noted except "Amen". It is fairly interesting that the new "m**** code" of the liberal is earth centered. I totally agree with the statement correlating the environmental movements deisre to force their m**** code on everyone with a type of forced religion. After all, we are really talking about control of thoughts and actions. They are trying to legislate their m****s into law, and they do not care about the consequence. Make no mistake, one need not believe that they are truly trying to save the earth. After all, most of these people live in large cities, and really have very little contact with the realities on the ground. They are not the caretakers. They are really just zealots trying to make themselves feel good about something. I work as a facilitator in meetings between stakeholders on natural resource issues, and it is imperative that people who value the right to decide for themselves, and use for themselves respect and work with each other. Snowmobilers need ranchers in their corner, ranchers need industry, industry needs other recreationists. We really need to communicate and respect each other or we will end up with people in L. A. telling us what we can and can't do. And that will be an environmental disaster. If in doubt, ask why they all want to leave and move to Wyoming.
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S
This is absolutely true! Almost none of the things being pushed by todays environmentalists are based in scientific fact, merely on poorly constructed survey studies done by non governmental organizations that funded by environmentalists. They literally create these "research organizations" so they can conduct their studies in a manner which will make sure that the results are in support of their predetermined view, which then allows them to make statements like "a recent study proves that grizzly bear populations are negatively affected by the presence of motorized activity".
I have a bachelor's degree in environmental science and am currently completing my masters degree, and the vast majority of real scientists I interact with agree that although the climate is changing, there is really no measurable way to know how much of it is influenced by human activity.
As was stated before, the number 1 enemy of the outdoors is development!!! Here in the Sea to Sky corridor north of Vancouver, they are constantly closing riding areas for dirtbikes and snowmobiles, but at the same time developing huge golf course resorts and new subdivisions!!!!!!! The people who will move to these places are not backcountry enthusiasts, but city people who will commute daily to vancouver, further polluting the entire area with vehicle emmissions. The hypocrisy of todays envronmentalists is just unreal! It drives me nuts and makes me want to move to the Yukon or Alaska, seriously.
I have a bachelor's degree in environmental science and am currently completing my masters degree, and the vast majority of real scientists I interact with agree that although the climate is changing, there is really no measurable way to know how much of it is influenced by human activity.
As was stated before, the number 1 enemy of the outdoors is development!!! Here in the Sea to Sky corridor north of Vancouver, they are constantly closing riding areas for dirtbikes and snowmobiles, but at the same time developing huge golf course resorts and new subdivisions!!!!!!! The people who will move to these places are not backcountry enthusiasts, but city people who will commute daily to vancouver, further polluting the entire area with vehicle emmissions. The hypocrisy of todays envronmentalists is just unreal! It drives me nuts and makes me want to move to the Yukon or Alaska, seriously.
The Yukon it is,,,, you drivin???
W
An example of unquestioning belief. What country uses the most energy? Most of you would say the United States, you'd be right, with China following close behind.
But, what people use the most energy, "per capita energy usage", or energy usage per person.
You'd have to answer Iceland, Norway, Canada, Finland, Sweden, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Qatar, and then the United States, and then another 26 countries that use as much, or within 50% as much, per person. Humm. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_ele_con_percap-energy-electricity-consumption-per-capita
I thought Americans were energy hogs.
The other question you have to ask yourself, if some of these countries had cheap power, how much would they use? Are we not demonizing the United States because it has continuously available energy at cheap rates? Wonder how much energy China would use, if it were available?
Has anyone else noticed that the Earth's population chart and global warming charts look a lot alike? At least for the last 120 years.
But, what people use the most energy, "per capita energy usage", or energy usage per person.
You'd have to answer Iceland, Norway, Canada, Finland, Sweden, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Qatar, and then the United States, and then another 26 countries that use as much, or within 50% as much, per person. Humm. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_ele_con_percap-energy-electricity-consumption-per-capita
I thought Americans were energy hogs.
The other question you have to ask yourself, if some of these countries had cheap power, how much would they use? Are we not demonizing the United States because it has continuously available energy at cheap rates? Wonder how much energy China would use, if it were available?
Has anyone else noticed that the Earth's population chart and global warming charts look a lot alike? At least for the last 120 years.
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M
I live in missoula mt. on the valley floor and i am still waiting for someone to explain to me where the hundred feet of water went that use to occupy the valley and the hundreds of feet of glacier ice that filled miles of the flathead valley went too, and WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for it leaving.
It is very interesting that last i knew that there was a big chunk of land up lolo pass that private investors owned and now the area is surrounded by alot of purposed closures.
surveyor area gets backcountry guided horse hunts. That makes a guy wonder things.
Religon no, CULT yes!!
I am currently building my tin foil helmet to protect myself from the radio signals that whoever is behind this earth warming conspiracy is using to brain wash the world into thinking that it can be stopped. Or is it that people are just that STUPID!!
Maybe humans are just a temporary guest on earths history.
Maybe the day of reckoning is near.
Maybe its a warming cycle that will eventually end whenever it ends.
Maybe.....
Is it not easier to keep the house clean by locking the pets outside 24/7
and having the kids locked in a closet in the basement 24/7
and just going to a motel 24/7.
Or maybe the government likes it easy for themselves by locking us out and chucking the key.
It is very interesting that last i knew that there was a big chunk of land up lolo pass that private investors owned and now the area is surrounded by alot of purposed closures.
surveyor area gets backcountry guided horse hunts. That makes a guy wonder things.
Religon no, CULT yes!!
I am currently building my tin foil helmet to protect myself from the radio signals that whoever is behind this earth warming conspiracy is using to brain wash the world into thinking that it can be stopped. Or is it that people are just that STUPID!!
Maybe humans are just a temporary guest on earths history.
Maybe the day of reckoning is near.
Maybe its a warming cycle that will eventually end whenever it ends.
Maybe.....
Is it not easier to keep the house clean by locking the pets outside 24/7
and having the kids locked in a closet in the basement 24/7
and just going to a motel 24/7.
Or maybe the government likes it easy for themselves by locking us out and chucking the key.
S
This is just my opinion but I don't think that most of the extreme envirolmentalists really want anything to do with wilderness. I say the most extreme greenies just want to arugue. I think most would be unhappy if they were dropped into the wilderness, it would be wet and cold and they would realize they aren't on top of the food chain, maybe they'd re-think hunting predators with dogs. People would also realize that you couldn't survive off of twigs and berries, there is no protien in it and we need meat to live. I would say many snowesters would be much more comfortable and more competant at surviving in the wilderness.
I think Michael Crichton hits it on the head. People need to believe in something, having faith is a big part of us as people. Many atheist's don't realize it but they believe in something they just put alot of energy believing in nothing. The sad part of this is like he says people start to loose the facts of enviromentalism, because the tennets are about belief. So they fight for it and forget about facts and think anyone with different views are the sinners and we are bad becuase of it. It is too bad our law makers don't listen to facts only. Sadly the enviromentalist movment is well funded.
I think Michael Crichton hits it on the head. People need to believe in something, having faith is a big part of us as people. Many atheist's don't realize it but they believe in something they just put alot of energy believing in nothing. The sad part of this is like he says people start to loose the facts of enviromentalism, because the tennets are about belief. So they fight for it and forget about facts and think anyone with different views are the sinners and we are bad becuase of it. It is too bad our law makers don't listen to facts only. Sadly the enviromentalist movment is well funded.
A
Leaders of the Cult
Think about the people that are at the top of these groups. How much money are they making off of all this green hype? In my opinion this is all about how much money they can line thier pockets with. I do believe that environmentalism (sp) is a religion. But it's a religion that makes the top people ALOT of money.
Think about the people that are at the top of these groups. How much money are they making off of all this green hype? In my opinion this is all about how much money they can line thier pockets with. I do believe that environmentalism (sp) is a religion. But it's a religion that makes the top people ALOT of money.
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