Perks Balancing

BBP · Nov 28, 2011

EternalWinter said:
I also had the clutch/engine balance done on my 09 Summit, checking that all internal parts were exactly matched and all bushings were good before sending in. After running it I can say that it is much smoother on the idle and smoother through the whole rpm range. Lined up an 07 800R, 08 800R, and my 09 and the difference was very evident. That was all at the shop, then we went for a ride. The sled ran very well prior but runs even better now. Had to wind out my Shockwave 2.5 degrees just to get it down to normal operating rpm on #1 for testing. Just added 2 grams in the pin, .9 in the middle hole, and 2.2 in the bottom to try and get it back down to a better angle on the helix and keep it from over rev. I'd say that it works, best money I've spent so far on the sled.

That's impressive. New buttons, o-rings & bushings will tighten up your clutch & require more weight. Could this be the case or do you credit all of this increase to Perks? Anything else changed? Pistons, head, pipe, different belt, snow conditions or elevation?

daleo · Nov 28, 2011

my clutch had 412 miles on it with a dj cluch kit already installed
running on clicker 2.with only doing the perks balancing kit i had 2 grams of weight to maintain clicker 2 @ same RPM

mrquick68 · Nov 28, 2011

sledsrock said:
Pic #1 shows where/how the weight was removed and pic #2 is how it looks before. Bad pics I know. The fixed sheave has a small amount (3 grams) of material removed on the back side at the "v" notch area. The movable sheave was 13 grams out.

A MUCH cleaner solution than before. I'd considering doing this again w/ him. I was one of the first on here to get him to balance my clutch and i can say it worked better balanced, but unfortunately mine clutch cracked right through the holes he used to remove material. This will work a thousand times better and i'll consider using his kit if i decide to keep my XP.

winter brew · Nov 28, 2011

Not to imply there is anything wrong with externally "balancing" an engine, I have had Perks balance my own clutches....but my overly anylitical mind has to ask.....
When spin balancing an engine assembly, I can see how one could add mass to bring it into "balance" (for lack of a better word), and reduce vibration. My question is, how do you factor in the compression and explosion going on in the cylinder that is not present during the balance process....when just spinning the engine (not running), the piston is exerting force UPward at TDC, but in actual operation the same piston is exerting force DOWNward at TDC.
Again...just looking for a more technical explanation of how this is being factored into the equasion....whereas just adding mass to anything will always make it seem smoother....like the additional vibration felt by removing the ring gear.

EternalWinter · Nov 29, 2011

EternalWinter · Nov 29, 2011

BBP said:
That's impressive. New buttons, o-rings & bushings will tighten up your clutch & require more weight. Could this be the case or do you credit all of this increase to Perks? Anything else changed? Pistons, head, pipe, different belt, snow conditions or elevation?

I didn't change anything on the sled from last spring to this fall other than the clutch/motor balance. As far as the clutch is concerned all I did was put a new sliding half bushing in as the original was getting close to tolerances, might as well put a new one in if I'm sending it out. All other parts were fine but were verified as being equal on weight and in working order. So, yes, I would say that the changes seen are related to the clutch and motor balance.

cory3671 · Nov 29, 2011

EternalWinter said:
I didn't change anything on the sled from last spring to this fall other than the clutch/motor balance. As far as the clutch is concerned all I did was put a new sliding half bushing in as the original was getting close to tolerances, might as well put a new one in if I'm sending it out. All other parts were fine but were verified as being equal on weight and in working order. So, yes, I would say that the changes seen are related to the clutch and motor balance.

Does the sled rev quicker? with the 2 grams added must be a noticable difference on how it pulls! have you had a chance to see a track speed increase in a climb?

7perk · Nov 29, 2011

Perk Balancing

:face-icon-small-ton Winter Brew - All of the Engine Balance Kits are placed on my 2010 800 Ski-Doo and the balance machine is set-up on the sled and balanced at 2550 rpm under the power of the motor of the sled. (Customer's primary and the mag. rotor). And anyone that brings their sled to my shop it's done the same way. Also the unbalance amount and angle of unbalance are the same rather it's placed on the hard bearing table or in the sled and ran under the power of the sled motor.

byeatts · Nov 30, 2011

7perk said:
:face-icon-small-ton Winter Brew - All of the Engine Balance Kits are placed on my 2010 800 Ski-Doo and the balance machine is set-up on the sled and balanced at 2550 rpm under the power of the motor of the sled. (Customer's primary and the mag. rotor). And anyone that brings their sled to my shop it's done the same way. Also the unbalance amount and angle of unbalance are the same rather it's placed on the hard bearing table or in the sled and ran under the power of the sled motor.

How does this compare to your most preferred method of balancing an assembled motor with all moving parts without a head as you have expressed?Also crank run-out is in a different location and different amounts on every crank?

TT670 · Nov 30, 2011

Im not calling anyone a liar here but stop and think about how much HP it takes to pull 2 additional grams in the pin and 2.5 deg more helix? Im wondering who'll be first on here to say their crank came apart and blew the bottom of the case out causing them to need a heli ride off the mountain. Im onboard with the clutch balancing but you guinea pigs doing the engine balance are nuts IMO.

winter brew · Nov 30, 2011

7perk said:
:face-icon-small-ton Winter Brew - All of the Engine Balance Kits are placed on my 2010 800 Ski-Doo and the balance machine is set-up on the sled and balanced at 2550 rpm under the power of the motor of the sled. (Customer's primary and the mag. rotor). And anyone that brings their sled to my shop it's done the same way. Also the unbalance amount and angle of unbalance are the same rather it's placed on the hard bearing table or in the sled and ran under the power of the sled motor.

Thank you.
And if we don't bring the sled in? How much variance are you seeing from sled to sled (assuming same engine)....if any. ??
Also, being a mountain guy that spends the long dollar to drop weight....how much weight does a engine balance setup add too a 800R.??

lancelarue · Nov 30, 2011

800R balance

Referred a customer to Joe for engine balance kit and TRA balance. I'll admit, I was skeptical as to the gains I was told would be realized on a 800R.
Really impressive!!! Total added was 2 grams in the pins & .7 in the middle hole, (Thunder Arms). That's one hell of a gain for the money, not to mention the benefit of balancing / smooth running, longevity.
Good job Joe!!!!!!!!!

byeatts · Nov 30, 2011

lancelarue said:
Referred a customer to Joe for engine balance kit and TRA balance. I'll admit, I was skeptical as to the gains I was told would be realized on a 800R.
Really impressive!!! Total added was 2 grams in the pins & .7 in the middle hole, (Thunder Arms). That's one hell of a gain for the money, not to mention the benefit of balancing / smooth running, longevity.
Good job Joe!!!!!!!!!

the longevity can be subjective,However to Dyno then install kit and Dyno again is easy?Perhaps Joe can arrange this through an independent shop.I believe Joe does a great job on the clutch,There are many opinions on altering the designed motor balance.

TreeThrasher · Dec 1, 2011

If its pulling more weight then a gain has been realized and free'ing up power from mechanical loss from imbalance is the very best power too get. Its really that easy.

I just got 3 of my motors back from Perk and will be testing them this weekend. Looking for good gains.

I saw some things happening in all 3 of these motors that lead me too believe that Skidoo has all but ignored engine balance. There is nothing that leads me too believe there will be ANY negatives too altering the balance spec because its so far off from the factory that the internals show the engine is trying too shake itself too death. Not too mention that Trygstad also offers a balancing service (conventional method) for the 800r motor. He seems right on board with the theory that Doo botched the balance completely.

By the way, incredible turn around time and very high quality workmanship. Thumbs up so far. Ill post after the weekend.

7perk · Dec 1, 2011

Perk Balancing

:face-icon-small-ton Winter Brew - On TreeThrasher's 3 motors the two 2009 860CC the unbalance was .9 grams different from each other. And the 2008 860CC (having a different Mag.) was 7 grams higher then the two 2009's but the angle of unbalance was the same on all three. He was using the same pistons in all three.
The Mag. rotor for the Engine Kit weighs 400 to 450 grams. And I'm removing weigh from the primary clutch. The added weight to the crank add torque especially if it is now spinning freer instead of fighting itself every revolution.

BBP · Dec 1, 2011

I agree with byeatts, let's see a before & after on a track dyno.
Has anybody ran an internally balanced crank? If so, did it also require more pin wt?

byeatts · Dec 1, 2011

TreeThrasher said:
If its pulling more weight then a gain has been realized and free'ing up power from mechanical loss from imbalance is the very best power too get. Its really that easy.

I just got 3 of my motors back from Perk and will be testing them this weekend. Looking for good gains.

I saw some things happening in all 3 of these motors that lead me too believe that Skidoo has all but ignored engine balance. There is nothing that leads me too believe there will be ANY negatives too altering the balance spec because its so far off from the factory that the internals show the engine is trying too shake itself too death. Not too mention that Trygstad also offers a balancing service (conventional method) for the 800r motor. He seems right on board with the theory that Doo botched the balance completely.

By the way, incredible turn around time and very high quality workmanship. Thumbs up so far. Ill post after the weekend.

Ok ,I have a Trygstad Race crank for sale if anyone is interested .Only 400 miles .Will sell for 400 bucks. I paid 1350$ free ship in the US.

BBP · Dec 1, 2011

byeatts said:
Ok ,I have a Trygstad Race crank for sale if anyone is interested .Only 400 miles .Will sell for 400 bucks. I paid 1350$ free ship in the US.

What's your opinion on how this crank worked & what year does it fit? How did it compare to the results posted about Perks process?

lancelarue · Dec 1, 2011

800R balance

Ask Joe @ Perk's how far out the 800R is each throw. When I talked to him last winter said he found out the total force created by the "out of balance". I can't remember the exact #, but it was HUGE!
That's why the added pin weight to get the rpm down to normal. Parasitic drag--????

byeatts · Dec 1, 2011

lancelarue said:
Ask Joe @ Perk's how far out the 800R is each throw. When I talked to him last winter said he found out the total force created by the "out of balance". I can't remember the exact #, but it was HUGE!
That's why the added pin weight to get the rpm down to normal. Parasitic drag--????

I was also told by Perks that the very best accurate method is to send a assembled motor with all moving parts without head for complete engine balance, Now that is not under compression.I believe Joe does a great job on the clutch correcting the flaws however has still not responded to how this method is compared to the engine kit with is done on a running motor? I dont intend for any disrespect towards anyone however want to cut through all the BS.

Perks Balancing

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