Vail Pass fee increase proposal

I'd gladly pay the increase if it'd help with signage and enforcement of keeping sleds out of the skiing areas.

rhalloran said:

I'd gladly pay the increase if it'd help with signage and enforcement of keeping sleds out of the skiing areas.

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Vail Mountain to the west, Copper to the east, huge wilderness just to the north of I-70, yet you think you still need more. Greedy F**k!!!

dtown said:

Vail Mountain to the west, Copper to the east, huge wilderness just to the north of I-70, yet you think you still need more. Greedy F**k!!!

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No, the established skiing areas within the Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area. Not talking about ski areas, talking about the areas that are clearly designated on the map as "hybrid use ski area," where snowmobiles are not allowed off the groomed road. It is basically Ptarmigan, and SW, over toward Fowler-Hilliard. It is approximately 10% of the total area at Vail Pass - the fee area.

Snowmobiles continually run their sleds through those areas, off the groomed roads. I figure it is largely a lack of signage (even though the MAP given to EACH USER clearly shows it), and if the FS had $$$ to enforce infractions, it would be less of a problem.

Vail Pass used to be all open to sleds. If you want non-sled tracked hillsides to ski, go to a ski resort or wilderness. Greedy F**cks!!!

dtown said:

Vail Pass used to be all open to sleds. If you want non-sled tracked hillsides to ski, go to a ski resort or wilderness. Greedy F**cks!!!

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This is exactly the reason that the non-snowmobilers take issue with the OHV group - snowmobilers want "theirs," but are seemingly unwilling to share/cooperate with other user groups.

I snowmobile and ski. I use my snowmobiles TO ski. I use them at places where there are no rules - simply over-snow-vehicles allowed - and I use them at places like Vail Pass and Buff Pass, where "special use" arrangements are in place.

If YOU, DTown, don't like other user groups on "your" terrain, don't go to places where there ARE designated boundaries.

Suggesting that I ski at resorts is like suggesting that snowmobilers should be forced to stay on groomed roads _all the time_. What's the point? When "the greenies" talk about limiting over snow use to groomed roads/established trails only, it shows ignorance on their part - they don't understand what it is we like to do.

I say "we" because I've got one foot firmly in each camp. I snowmobile, I ski.

Your saying I should go to a resort or wilderness is equally ignorant - I do occasionally ski wilderness, AT bindings and skins - but I'd rather use my sled for the up-piece.

Bottom line, though, it is this crappy attitude that will eventually lead to MORE closures and things like "snowmobiles on established routes only." Vail Pass is a big area. Admittedly, I've only been riding there for seven years - at one point, you could ride to Leadville, I'm told, and some areas HAVE been closed to sleds.

That's a drag.

HOWEVER, the rules that ARE in place *need* to be followed by the snowmobilers to show some semblance of cooperation with other groups. $100/year is a small price to pay for a managed, maintained area, and part of what I feel like I'm paying for are the "hybrid use" areas.

When ignorant, illiterate, inconsiderate or just plain rude snowmobilers ignore the boundaries and make a mess of the "hybrid use" area, it ticks me off.

Now, before your panties get in a bigger bunch, let me break that down for you - I am postulating that the snowmobilers that ride in the hybrid-use areas are:

Ignorant OR illiterate (that means they can't read) OR inconsiderate OR just plain rude.

The last person I spoke with about riding in an off limits area genuinely had no idea and thanked me for the tip, then we chatted about dirbikes for 20 minutes. No harm, no foul. He was "ignorant."

"Ignorant" means "does not know" or "unaware" in this context. I don't hold it against those people, they don't know. No problem!

I figure more money means more signs, and more enforcement, so the illiterate, inconsiderate and rude can get a ticket or three.

Pretty simple. We all need to respect each other's boundaries. I never ski on the Shrine side, that's sled-territory, even though there's some fun stuff over there.

I've only ever ridden Vail Pass once in my life on a snowmobile, and I found it confusing and always found myself asking "am I allowed to be here?" every time I left the trail. I agree better signage cannot hurt and would be a good candidate for something to use the proposed fee increase on (if it passes).

The problem comes when the thought of "am I allowed to be here?" never crosses the mind of a snowmobiler. I appreciate rhalloran reaching out to snowmobilers that are operating in areas not meant for snowmobiles. That's the type of respect that's going to take us toward a unified backcountry. Kudos.

Signs?

Signs? What signs?

I also back country ski and snowmobile and hate to see any area previously open to snowmobile areas closed. I am in agreement that we (snowmobilers) need to respect the closures in place so we do not provide more ammo for the groups wanting to shut us down. The back country skiers that don't use sleds do want to shut us down where ever they can, I understand they want it for the few, I didn't use to own a sled and understand how they feel when we blow by and shred the pow they want to ski. I have watched some of our best riding areas in NW Montana get shut down while we watched from the sidelines, more of us need to get involved either financially or physically to represent our group and stop the landslide of closures from continuing.
Bad attitudes and disrespect for current closed areas hurt our chances in the future. Many other groups including the non motorized back country skiers are at work at all times trying to close areas currently open for snowmobiling. Donate time and money to keep what we have and quit wasting energy crying over what we have lost.:help:

How come "sharing" to the sled/ski crowd means closing areas that were once open to sleds? I'm more than happy to let you ski down the same hills I like to sled on. I've donated tons of my own money and time to help save our riding areas. Our sled clubs are very into compromise. Giving up more land and adding more restrictions is not compromise to me. I'm of the opinion that it's time for some good old fashion civil disobedience. F*** the Forest Circus and their greenie agenda.

dtown said:

How come "sharing" to the sled/ski crowd means closing areas that were once open to sleds? I'm more than happy to let you ski down the same hills I like to sled on. I've donated tons of my own money and time to help save our riding areas. Our sled clubs are very into compromise. Giving up more land and adding more restrictions is not compromise to me. I'm of the opinion that it's time for some good old fashion civil disobedience. F*** the Forest Circus and their greenie agenda.

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Who is talking about closing anything new?

In the time I've been riding snowmobiles @ Vail Pass, the "hybrid use area" has not changed. Seven seasons. I'm not advocating closure of additional terrain.

I _AM_ in favor of spending more of my money if that money will be put toward enforcing the EXISTING rules. The Vail Pass Winter Recreation Area gets traffic from ALL sides - foot, snowmobile, snow bike, commercial (sled rentals, tours, cat skiing).

I think the USFS has actually done a damned good job with it, integrating their efforts, grooming, Nova Guides, huts, the catop, and the snowmobilers. LOTS of different objectives in that parking lot.

There are several areas within the VP area - the "fee area" - that are CLEARLY MARKED as off limits on the map.

How on earth is "civil disobedience" going to help keep anything open?

How do you think "they" will perceive it when anti-snowmobile groups present "them" with "even though we print color maps each year and put signage along marked trails, snowmobiles continue to ride in closed areas?"

Do you REALLY think "they" are going to say "oh, we should give the snowmobilers MORE terrain, they're deserving!"

No. They won't.

No one is talking about closing MORE land to sleds. I simply support the fee increase if it preserves the areas that I go there for - I go to Vail Pass BECAUSE it makes skiing easy, BECAUSE there are groomed roads and slopes NOT shredded by sleds.

At the intersection of Shrine Pass Road and Shrine Bowl, it is supposed to be closed for about 500' on either side of the groomer. The map clearly shows that. You'd never KNOW that, it is ALL tracked out right now. Unreal.

Now, I'm quick to point out "ignorance." Ignorance does not absolve you from obeying the law, but if you really did not THINK you were doing anything wrong, fine. That to me is different than willfully disobeying rules, which is rude, inconsiderate and really telling of one's character. Maybe those who have ridden in the normally-closed area are ignorant, maybe they did not look at the map, maybe they figured that since SOME tracks are there, theirs can be, too.

Or, maybe they figure "there's no sign up yet, I can't get in trouble." That's a possibility, too. I hope that's not the majority, as that's just freaking lame.

I never, ever complain about sleds on the hill when I'm at (insert other place here). Vail Pass? Stay out of the "hybrid use" areas.

Snowmobilers don't like it when "their" stuff is taken away - their right to ride, their land. I don't like that. Urad is a good example. Sucks.

Snowmobilers who willfully break the rules & ride in closed areas are helping to get areas closed, plain and simple. If a fee increase helps clarify things, I'm all for it.

facebook group

Send me the facebook link for the group... one of my fav places to ride & don't want to see this increase!! Thanks!!!!

blurredelevens said:

Yesterday I was in the Silverthorne USFS office when I saw a slip of paper stating the following-

FEE CHANGE PROPOSED FOR THE VAIL PASS WINTER RECREATION AREA
The current fees to use the Vail Pass Winter Recreation area are $6 per person, per day and $40 for a season pass.
The Dillon and Eagle-Holy Cross Ranger Districts propose to INCREASE the fee to $9 per day and $100 for a season pass.
Your feedback is requested on this proposal to increase the fee. To comment, send an e-mail to: wrnf_scoping_comments@fs.fed.us

I think they're trying to fly this one under the radar folks. I started a facebook group so that we have a voice in numbers. please join the group "Vail Pass snowmobilers" on Facebook to discuss this! Also, please send them an e-mail!

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"No one is talking about closing more land to sleders".
Open your f**king eyes man.
Here's my proposal. We spend our OHV and club dollars grooming an awesome track up the north side of Vail Pass for you. Sleds will be restricted to the trail, and the whole north side can be set aside for sled ski access. Then we'll reopen the whole south side to sledding. Why does your type always want to compromise with sleders land, but not skiers land?

I grew up in that area and know the terrain very well. rhalloran, you are not aware of the terrain that was taken away from snowmobilers, because you came after it already happened. There are many reasons why there should not be a cost increase in this area. First, it is very mismanaged. There is no reason why that parking lot should struggle the way it does. The FS is always behind the 8 ball when it comes time to plow. Then they have a mess on their hands. The main reason this all pisses me off is that the efforts are there for the skiers or "hybrid" users, not snowmobilers. Look around the state at other snowmobiling areas. The FS doesn't spend near the efforts to maintain lots, signage and other key elements. Right now I pay my $40 for the season pass, but $100 is not a fair price. That is well above 100% increase. Please justify that some how. The other problem I have is that our local snowmobile club hasn't even been notified about this. That is unacceptable when the Vail Task Force receives its grooming money from CSA and Colorado State Parks. This money comes from registered snowmobiles. Oh, and Ptarmigan is not closed down to snowmobilers, your comment above made it seem as though that area is mostly for skiers. Far from the truth. Keep in mind that there is a sanctuary of skier terrain on the north side of the Vail Pass exit that is closed to motorized activity. I agree with respecting boundaries, but when the FS continues to take and take, it gets hard to respect. Our club will fight this.

I can't wrap my head around the proposed numbers. I don't mind spending $60 extra/year, IF there's benefit - overall scheme of things, that's not much money. It does seem like an odd increase - day use is 50%, seasonal use more than doubles? eh?

Ptarmigan - looking at this year's map as I type. The south face of Ptarm peak is open down to the road. The east side of the road from the pass headed back toward Wilder - Machine Gun Ridge, basically - is fair game. That's it. The other aspects of Ptarmigan are closed to off trail use.

There's also the section on the NW side of Wilder that is closed to sleds, that currently has tracks ALL OVER IT.

DTown - I like your proposal. We both know that'll never fly, unfortunately, but I _have_ seen cat tracks back there - dunno if there was a rescue or what, but it is at least possible to put a cat back in there. I'd be all for that. We both know full well that the FS does not know how to OPEN lands for OHV recreation, they only know how to close them.

All I want out of the deal is for sleds to stop ruining the skiing terrain. Like it or not, those are the current rules in place. I pay my money to the FS, I pay my sled registration fees, I am a strong supporter of motorized recreation.

I'm also a strong supporter of showing my fellow users courtesy and respect. We all want our little piece. Flatly ignoring the rules does NOTHING to benefit snowmobilers as a group. I don't know how many people are IGNORING the rules or IGNORANT of them, so like I said earlier, if the increase results in more signage and enforcement, I'm all for it.

Benefit of the doubt. I'd like to think the people riding their sleds in currently closed off areas - no matter what happened >7 years ago - are unaware that they're breaking the rules.

If they're aware, well, that sucks, and they're idiots.

If you were to ride into a wilderness area from the backside where NO ONE can see you doing it, did you? Who knows. No foot traffic, no visibility from the road, most planes are too high to see you. Maybe that happens. Maybe it does not. I don't know.

If a person were willfully going to break the rules, do THAT.

Don't do it RIGHT NEXT to a groomed road less than two miles from a freaking interstate highway, you knucklehead! I mean, duh?

ahhhh whatever. We're closer to on the same page than not, really. I'm nowhere near anti-snowmobiling (duh?), when I _do_ go human powered, I go to places where sleds are not allowed, period (and it baffles me that people do hike where sleds are allowed).

I just want people to follow what rules we have, and I'm a nice enough guy to consider the possibility that those riding in closed areas don't know.

I'm beginning to wonder, though.

rhalloran said:

I'd gladly pay the increase if it'd help with signage and enforcement of keeping sleds out of the skiing areas.

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Go f*ck yourself

Dogmeat said:

Go f*ck yourself

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hah! At least I can use both hands.

Only time I saw an out of bounds sledder at Vail Pass was a ranger trying to high mark the out of bounds are in the lime creek drainage.....and he got stuck. We stopped and took off our stuff to watch him dig out, after all it was out of bounds...lol.

heh, I helped get a ranger sled out of queen bee a couple of seasons ago; soft shoulder sucked the Yamaha in.

Feces certainly occurs, no denying that, but some extra signs would not be a bad thing.

To all who bemoan the loss of riding areas over the years, let me ask you a simple question?

When was the last time you took a FNG (newbie) under your wing and mentored them so that our numbers increase? How many of you have ignored a riding buddy request because you weren't willing to sacrifice your enjoyment for a day to welcome a newcomer to this activity? Strength in numbers people!

What does strength in numbers mean? Well, in short, it means that people with a common problem need to band together, if they want to achieve a change. We need to grow the number who participate in our activity. Yes, that may mean more crowded play areas but I feel it is the only way to prevent further restrictions imposed upon us.

When rhalloran wasn't occupied "f#cking himself", he took the time to give me a warm welcome into this activity. 2 years ago at Redcliff, he and a friend changed a belt on my wife's 98 RMK 600 because I had no clue as to how to do it. The following year when I sold my trail sleds and replaced them with mountain sleds, rhalloran was the only person on snowest who made the sacrifice to ride with me and introduce me to off trail riding at Vail Pass and other areas.

He is a standup guy and by extending an arm of friendship and tolerating my lack of ability and other faults, he has increased our number by one.

What have you done to promote and advance our "sport"/activity? How many new people have you brought into the fold?

We'll never win against the "greenies" if our numbers remain static or if we fight amongst ourselves. We are slowly losing the battle because many of you are blinded by our differences