How are we supposed to think, when we do more than one sport?

TIM · Apr 22, 2008

I am just curious to how some of the people on here seperated there sports?
Take hunting, if you belong to any hunting group, you are agianst snowmobiling since most hunting groups are conservation groups. I don't personally believe this but most peeps on here do.

So how are we supposed to support our activities?
Do we keep them separate in our conversations, do we link them all together?

tim

FSJ · Apr 22, 2008

I feel that it is important that you don't seperate them. Need to prevent the us vs them feelings. That is what I really like about the BRC. If there are people in one group that don't agree with you, just let them know your position and reasons, but don't preach to them.

As far as hunting conservation type groups, just make sure you mention that wilderness does not equal conservation. (I know you know this Tim)

Gotta go back to work.

xrated · Apr 22, 2008

interseting topic Tim. To be honest I'm gonna have to think on this for awhile and reply. I do know that in my eyes shared access and planning are key.

Swami · Apr 22, 2008

Which hunters?

I know some fish groups aren't thrilled with sleds, but I've frankly never seen this with hunters. Do you have an example?

Wade · Apr 22, 2008

Around here, it's the Hunters with ATV/UTV's and the Hunters without vehicles. Some cougar hunters use sleds to hunt cats and pull their dog box behind it. Generally, most hunters don't hunt when theres enough snow to snowmobile. Their too scared of getting trapped in the mountains.

team bowwow · Apr 23, 2008

its just a visious circle of who wants to shut down who its who gets a law passed first its sad one person tries so hard to be a tree hugger but forgets how they wipped in the morning or the oak trim in there house

aadougie · Apr 26, 2008

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation comes to mind - they support every new "Wilderness" bill that comes through, yet all the sledders that are members thinking they are supporting "Elk Rights" or whatever don't know this...

newtrout · Apr 27, 2008

TIM said:
I am just curious to how some of the people on here seperated there sports?
Take hunting, if you belong to any hunting group, you are agianst snowmobiling since most hunting groups are conservation groups. I don't personally believe this but most peeps on here do.

So how are we supposed to support our activities?
Do we keep them separate in our conversations, do we link them all together?

tim

This is a fantastic question! I think it really points out how important it is to see both sides of the issue. We have to support multi-use, and we have to be respectful of other users. It shows that the people on the other side of the fence aren't necessarily 'greenies', 'tree-huggers', etc. And it shows that not all snowmobilers are rednecks who go out and get drunk on the hill.

Anywhere we can show that we have a common cause, the better off we're going to be.

AdrenalineAddict · Apr 27, 2008

I believe people have a tendency to over think conservation and all the details involved. I am an avid hunter for instance but our hunting season typically ends before snowmobiling begins. I have yet to see a big game animal when sledding, they don't care for 10' of snow at 10,000', I don't see the two as even being related so why do the politicians continue to lump the two as one. I'm an avid fisherman, again sledding and fishing have no common ground, they are not related. ATV's and sleds again are not related in any way shape or form, so why do we get uncompromising rules and legislation tying the two together. I enjoy a good backpacking, granola crunching hike in the high country, but snowmobiling is my passion, again they're not related, I have trouble trying to figure out why the groups are at odds in the first place. If people would simply mind their own business instead of pushing their one sided agenda we wouldn't have many issues.

aabbccddeeff · Apr 28, 2008

face it guys...its the snowmobiles that made me not get my moose or elk..bear, deer,etc...the machines scaired them far away..and now they wont come back.Then the lakes are getting polluted from the snowmobiles driving on them.. I think the green freeks camping in the wilderness are pushing the animals further into the woods..the smell of human scent is far worse than the smell of a snowmobile...the human is a threat..not the machine.and as far as lakes..my bass boat is more polution than my snowmobile..and jet skis..and when your in a small boat on a lake in the middle of nowhere..do you go to shore ,or just pi$$ in the water.....so i guess what it really boils down to..is.. who has the right to be there ,and that there are fools everywhere..its really up to us as individules to keep or country clean and wild..guide for hunting and fishing..17 years..still love it..

weetee · Apr 28, 2008

newtrout said:
This is a fantastic question! I think it really points out how important it is to see both sides of the issue. We have to support multi-use, and we have to be respectful of other users. It shows that the people on the other side of the fence aren't necessarily 'greenies', 'tree-huggers', etc. And it shows that not all snowmobilers are rednecks who go out and get drunk on the hill.

Anywhere we can show that we have a common cause, the better off we're going to be.

WE have to respect multi-use? Tell me how many snowmobiling areas are CLOSED to skiers? I think we know who is not seeing both sides of the issue, and it aint the sledders.

Bagger · Apr 29, 2008

Interesting

Hey Guys,
I think you will find that most people that enjoy the outdoors, understand that others do too. I'm going to take some heat about Ski'rs I know, but re read that and focus on the word "Most".
Here in Washington, it's against the law to ride a snowmobile on public land during a big game season. It's also against the law to ride a snowmobile on a forest service road prior to that road being bermed. I willing to bet you that the vast majority of snowmobilers here don't even know that.
This year, our late archery season coincided with the first real ridable snow of the year. My Wife and I were trying to hunt and were getting run over by FRIENDS, on their sleds. Even when we gently reminded them of the law, they were right back the next day. I understood them wanting to ride....quite honestly I was pis sed that they were there, but I understood. However, I'll bet a non rider would have raised cain. Instead of that, we packed back into the W, and got away from the riders. Piece of cake.
I think that we can all get along if we want to. I don't believe for a minute that I wreck the woods for the tree huggers/ski'rs/no motor's allowed wacko's. I also think there's room for them to have a place to enjoy the outdoors in thier way.
In other words, if everyone would just grow up and not beat everyone else over the head with what they believe, it'd be a better place.
It's too easy to let our frustration with the other sides propaganda cloud our mind to what's the decent thing to do.
Interesting topic, thanks for listening.
Bagger

aadougie · Apr 30, 2008

Bagger said:
In other words, if everyone would just grow up and not beat everyone else over the head with what they believe, it'd be a better place...
Bagger

Trouble is that's not going to happen.

Until motorized users understand the money machine driving the anti-access agenda we will continue to lose riding areas until they are are gone - the land use management process is fatally flawed and can and will only result in a "compromise" of net loss for motorized recreation of all kinds each and every time the subject comes up. As long as anti-access groups can raise huge sums of money by trumpeting their "success" at "protecting" more land - eco-speak for motorized closure - we will lose.

We need good PR - and I think one way to get it is to show the world that we enjoy ALL forms of outdoor recreation and therefore are the more reasonable voice in the land use fight. We understand the X/C skier/hiker/camper/whatever point of view because they are us... They don't understand our point of view because they aren't...

And most important, we need to have folks who can make a living fighting for motorized recreation rights. The paid anti-access folks wake up every morning and have only one job - shut down motorized recreation. Meanwhile, we expect our side to be effectively represented by volunteers, with no money to support lawsuits, PR efforts, travel... It's time we learned we need to "Pay to Play". It has always baffled me that even broke azzed hippies will send in $50 every time some eco-freak group sends out a letter crying/lying that snowmobiles are killing all the Buffalo in Yellowstone - meanwhile, we can't get riders to join SAWS for free!

newtrout · Apr 30, 2008

weetee said:
WE have to respect multi-use? Tell me how many snowmobiling areas are CLOSED to skiers? I think we know who is not seeing both sides of the issue, and it aint the sledders.

I see your point, but that's not a very realistic comparison. Have you EVER been in a place where skiers or snowshoers affected your riding? They're kinda like bears and timber tigers, they're more scared of us than we are of them...

weetee · Apr 30, 2008

newtrout said:
Have you EVER been in a place where skiers or snowshoers affected your riding?

Yup. Happens all the time, mostly on the trails (that sledders pay to have groomed), but I have been yelled at and flipped off all over the mountain. They "ruin my experience and should be banned".

newtrout · May 1, 2008

weetee said:
Yup. Happens all the time, mostly on the trails (that sledders pay to have groomed), but I have been yelled at and flipped off all over the mountain. They "ruin my experience and should be banned".

LOL. I guess we're no better than they are, then; if their mere presence ruins your entire experience.

Funny, when I slow down and pass a skier on the trail, I never get anything but waves. No middle finger involved.

snoman159 · May 1, 2008

weetee said:
WE have to respect multi-use? Tell me how many snowmobiling areas are CLOSED to skiers? I think we know who is not seeing both sides of the issue, and it aint the sledders.

I see your point with this but in Duluth, MN there are areas that are closed to skiers, more as a safety thing than anything. Likewise for trails for skiers, that again are closed for the sledders. I have come across skiers, as well as winter mountain bikers on the trail and usually I just get a wave, although there are a few there that seemed to be pissed off by my presence on a trail I paid for through taxes, registration fees, club membership, etc. The trail is designated for snowmobile use and they do not belong there. It only irritates me when I'm the bad guy riding on my own designated trails, otherwise I could care less. I can share the road and would expect the same of them.

I understand staying off of groomed ski trails, etc and have no problem with that. I wouldn't want to ski over a rough trail either. They do no harm to our trails, and if they are decent enough to move off to the side when they hear a sled coming I'm fine with that. I say support all of your pastimes together, don't make them mutually exclusive. You can't wave a flag one day, then put on different colors the next. Be proud of who you are and what you support.

DOO DAWG · May 1, 2008

TIM said:
I am just curious to how some of the people on here seperated there sports?
Take hunting, if you belong to any hunting group, you are agianst snowmobiling since most hunting groups are conservation groups. I don't personally believe this but most peeps on here do.

So how are we supposed to support our activities?
Do we keep them separate in our conversations, do we link them all together?

tim

I,m a hunter, and I ride when I can. My handle is "Elkaholic" on most other forums I go to. I feel there are idiots in all groups. Such as...... ANY hunter that thinks the enviro-whackos won,t dump them in less than a heartbeat as allies after they get thier agenda passed on us riders of any off road vehicles IS one of these idiots!

Dare-Ya · May 1, 2008

snoman159 said:
I see your point with this but in Duluth, MN there are areas that are closed to skiers, more as a safety thing than anything. Likewise for trails for skiers, that again are closed for the sledders. I have come across skiers, as well as winter mountain bikers on the trail and usually I just get a wave, although there are a few there that seemed to be pissed off by my presence on a trail I paid for through taxes, registration fees, club membership, etc. The trail is designated for snowmobile use and they do not belong there. It only irritates me when I'm the bad guy riding on my own designated trails, otherwise I could care less. I can share the road and would expect the same of them.

I understand staying off of groomed ski trails, etc and have no problem with that. I wouldn't want to ski over a rough trail either. They do no harm to our trails, and if they are decent enough to move off to the side when they hear a sled coming I'm fine with that. I say support all of your pastimes together, don't make them mutually exclusive. You can't wave a flag one day, then put on different colors the next. Be proud of who you are and what you support.

Do you ride in an area they are trying to close? I do, and trust me, they either swear at ya, give ya the finger or totally ignore you, and I do try the kill them with kindness thing. I got waved at once all season long. I had many walk right by me as I was unloading my sled, tried to make conversation by saying, beautiful day for outdoor activity, and I'll I got was disgusted glares. All sledders in general, I believe, were willing to share, even though its are revenues paying for the groomed trails, until they decided they were the only ones worthy of being in these areas. I happen to have an uncle who is 76 years old, rides all the time with his pals. I'm thrilled they can still do this at their age, although I wonder how, cause it's hard on me. I wonder how many of these crosscountry skiers will be wishing they could enjoy the mountains too at that age, but their to old to get up the trail.

snoman159 · May 1, 2008

Dare-Ya, I have been riding trails that they have tried to close. There are a select few extremists, and then a lot of good 'ol folks that fall right down the middle, myself included. I know there are a lot of tree huggers that want to shut us down, but I also realize that there are alot of guys that head up to the bar and then go ripping through neighborhoods in city limits at all hours of the night. It's hard to argue your side against crap like that, the skiers don't make noise if they are out at 3 in the morning. I think the battle with land issues needs to start at home, meaning we need to deal with our own and discipline the idiots that can't follow the rules. I've been with a couple of clubs over the years and don't very much care for the people that trench up the trails, blow out the corners, etc. Don't get me wrong, I like to have fun too but there are a lot of people dedicating their time to maintain the trails, the least a person could do is try to take care of them rather than rip them up. Go ride back country, but don't trespass. Know where you are allowed to ride. There are a few people that make us all look bad, and a few extremists that want us cut off from all trails, however I feel the majority of people are able to compromise. In order to achieve this we need to follow the rules, or we'll continue to face land closure.

In MN sledders aren't the only ones that pay for the trails, anyone that purchases fuel in the state pays for the trails. A certain portion of the fuel tax goes to support Grant-in-Aid snowmobile trails around the state. Clubs are responsible to raise a large portion of the costs to groom trails, but they also get a large chunk of funding from the state gas tax. Just like the city tax that I pay that also supports the local ski trails, I don't use them but I still pay for them. I don't really mind this because I'm supporting outdoor recreation, something we need more now than ever.

How are we supposed to think, when we do more than one sport?

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