Oil pump adjustment.... revisited

mountainhorse · Aug 22, 2012

Savage.. I can see your point... and I've heard it from many factory/dealer representatives.... but warranties do not provide a loaner sled...and as Oregon said... long term.... hmm...

The new engines should prove to be very durable and have a great track record for 2012 for the most part... there are new parts for 2013 and my suspicions are that the change in part numbers is not due to a change in vendors (Elko-Austria is still the piston mfg).

The Factory NOR the dealers can recommend or encourage you to make any adjustments that might lead to more.

There is zero evidence to date that increasing oil delivery to the motor will do anything but help.

In the end... ride your sled and run what you will!!

mountainhorse · Aug 23, 2012

At minimum... add some extra oil to your gas with every tank ... the same as the Factory recommends for the first tank of gas.

Plain and simple... the factory cannot sell sleds that cannot meet the EPA criteria, even if that shortens the engine life for some.

AKSNOWRIDER · Aug 23, 2012

savagerunner07 said:
The way I see it, is when I go get my 13 from the dealer they should adjust everything to the factory settings. I will run the oil that they recommend. That way, if there are ever any issues, they are responable for it. I won't even mention to them about the oil adjustment. That should be done at the PDI by a factory trained tech and not me.
I don't know how many other people feel this way, but this is how it should be. For the amount of money I am spending on their product, it should be setup properly from them. If not, its all on their dime.

when you get your new sled, pay attention to how much oil it uses(or doesnt) I have seen new pro's(both 11's and 12's) use less then a pint per tank(10 gal of fuel).they will not last using that little of oil...the pro shares the same crank as the older dragon(cf-4) motors..yet even with all the topends the dragons went thru it was rare you heard of one loosing a crank and I think that is because they came from the factory burning more oil(mine and my sons both needed the oilers turned down(both used over 1.5 qts per tank of fuel as shipped)..as for the oil in the fuel...thats because very little of the oil in the bottom end makes it above the piston(think about it, no oil in the fuel stock, and no oil lines to the topend)if it cant pick oil up with the air going thru the bottomend..its not getting oil up top unless its in the fuel...its a simple adjustment, dont pay any mind to the pump arm marks, just turn the adjuster a .5to1 turn before each ride until its using a qt per tank..and add a pint to the fuel for each fill up...

savagerunner07 · Aug 23, 2012

mountainhorse said:
Savage.. I can see your point... and I've heard it from many factory/dealer representatives.... but warranties do not provide a loaner sled...and as Oregon said... long term.... hmm...

The new engines should prove to be very durable and have a great track record for 2012 for the most part... there are new parts for 2013 and my suspicions are that the change in part numbers is not due to a change in vendors (Elko-Austria is still the piston mfg).

The Factory NOR the dealers can recommend or encourage you to make any adjustments that might lead to more.

There is zero evidence to date that increasing oil delivery to the motor will do anything but help.

In the end... ride your sled and run what you will!!

I totally see your point on the loaners. I guess I will have to take a look at it when I pick it up and have the tech make some adjustments. I do want this sled to last me a long time.
I guess working at a luxury car dealer, I have the mind set of a new car owner that everything should work great out of the box. It's my mistake.

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2012

savagerunner07 said:
I totally see your point on the loaners. I guess I will have to take a look at it when I pick it up and have the tech make some adjustments. I do want this sled to last me a long time.
I guess working at a luxury car dealer, I have the mind set of a new car owner that everything should work great out of the box. It's my mistake.

You most likely won't get a delearship tech to do anything other than confirm or adjust to the factory spec. There is more than enough info on this site to show you how to do it, or get a friend who knows how to run a wrench, and or you can just add oil to the gas tank.
Good luck!

pura vida · Aug 23, 2012

savagerunner07 said:
I totally see your point on the loaners. I guess I will have to take a look at it when I pick it up and have the tech make some adjustments. I do want this sled to last me a long time.
I guess working at a luxury car dealer, I have the mind set of a new car owner that everything should work great out of the box. It's my mistake.

yeah unfortunately sleds aren't nearly as dependable/reliable as a luxury car. hell, any car, regardless of make or model. if a car had the failure rate and issues that the vast majority of sleds do there would be outrage and a congressional investigation! of course if a any car, even the best luxury model was driven even half as hard as i/we ride our sleds it wouldn't last very long either and be in the shop weekly. if you really don't want to mess with it yourself, and i completely understand why you feel you shouldn't have to, talk to you dealer about putting a couple extra turns on the oil pump. if they are worth anything at all they shouldn't have an issue doing this. as everyone else has pretty much stated, i would much rather run a little to much oil, than not enough...

pv

Reg2view · Aug 23, 2012

Trusting the factory only goes so far - these motors are evolving so fast, the regs and EPA enforcement are new and constantly changing, and testing time and conditions limited, even the factories guess until the product is truly tested by the consumer for at least one season.

I've been with the OEM's from R&D through production engineering, seen prototype chassis's and motors evolve over years from concept to production, and it's just the way the OEM business has been forced to work - the EPA era just compressed this. And dealers are no more clued in than you are doing your due diligence on the net. Outside of the factory, a handful of aftermarketeers have the greatest knowledge, and much better tools. Certainly not dealers (unless the dealer is also aftermarket, alla Carl's, e.g.) JMPE.

rocket · Aug 23, 2012

mountainhorse said:
An extreme example of arm position and the pumps ability to move some serious oil.... EricW on the forums here had his Dragon (same pump... different control .. cable vs linkage-rod)... His pump was improperly set by the turbo installer where the pump arm was WAY advanced... he emptied his oil tank in less than one fuel tank and needed to drain some out of another sled to get the sled back to "camp" where we adjusted it properly.

These pumps CAN move some serious oil...In the case of the PRO RMK... This is limited by the range of adjustments that the factory linkage allows...ie, with the design of the linkage you cant really "crank up" the oil delivery a HUGE amount.... that might require a modded or custom linkage

If you really wanted to test this... wire the oil pump in the fully open position and see how fast the oil tank is emptied... IMO... that would be in less than one tank of gas.

I can vouch for the fact that you can put a lot of oil through the motor. After an off-season top end job on my 800 prior to last season, I adjusted my oil pump up a bit (on purpose) to make sure I had plenty of oil while breaking in. The first ride out, I went through almost the entire oil reservoir - that worked out close to 15:1 ratio. Interestingly, the motor never bobbled at any time and didn't seem to smoke excessively. I certainly didn't leave it that way, but it was an interesting "accidental experiment".

lorne1176 · Aug 23, 2012

Turn it up and ride it:face-icon-small-hap

907assault · Aug 23, 2012

I've wondered about installing a longer screw to use more oil. For example, I have my adjustment screw screwed in flush with the nut, about 3.5 turns in from stock. I haven't had a chance to put a good, result showing ride on it since.

But if I am not using a comfortable amount of oil, I may just install a slightly longer screw. Probably one with an allen head center back-up, instead of the flat blade screwdriver end. That way, I could hold better back-up, keeping the possibility of plate bending out of play.

Steelman · Aug 23, 2012

You all make very good points. I just feel a guy should not have to mess with anything for what they cost.
Wonder if us that have got 2013's coming will have to worry about it? We have already talked that there is possible changes to the engine. I'm interested in hearing from the motor guys on here. I'm sure someone will be tearing into one. If i need to turn it up, would be nice to have someone post a good step by step on it and maybe even a video too. Put it as a sticky, so it is easy for all to find. I've never done it before and just want to make sure I don't mess something up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2012

907assault said:
I've wondered about installing a longer screw to use more oil. For example, I have my adjustment screw screwed in flush with the nut, about 3.5 turns in from stock. I haven't had a chance to put a good, result showing ride on it since.

But if I am not using a comfortable amount of oil, I may just install a slightly longer screw. Probably one with an allen head center back-up, instead of the flat blade screwdriver end. That way, I could hold better back-up, keeping the possibility of plate bending out of play.

Bingo!! I have adjusted a few PRO’s besides mine. In each case I flipped the throttle to be sure I had a solid arm pointer mark relative to the pump body. In every case I found that 3 turns of the set screw made very little visible change to the arm pointer and the pump body scribe mark. The reason 3 turns is what you will see over and over again on these threads, is because any more than 3 turns and the set screw is less than flush with the lock nut. I’m still am not convinced that adjusting the set screw 3 turn is really advancing the pump in any meaningful way. A longer set screw might allow for a real advancement of the pump arm and a real increase in oil flow. As I said earlier, I didn't see a noticeable change in oil consumption after adjusting the set screw the 3 turns. I still feel that any advancement of the pump arm can’t hurt and I hope it does provide more oil over the entire rpm range. Add oil to the gas tank... that is the only way I feel you can trust the amount of oil that is being burnt. Premix is how 2 stroke motors have been successfully supplied oil for many years.

I have messed with several older sleds with the oil pumps that are easy to get to. In the older sleds, you can grab the pump arm and manually advance the arm and see the result in smoke. You have to move the arm more than the tiny bit that the 3 turns of the set screw on PRO gives you before you see any noticeable change in smoke output. I know that doesn't sound real scientific, but as far I know they have not changed these pumps over the years ( to a drastic new design) and a healthy 2 stroke motor smokes more than the PRO’s do. My 2 cents.

KAWGRN · Aug 24, 2012

Ams oil 100:1 pint bottle last a long time

lorne1176 · Aug 24, 2012

steelman said:
You all make very good points. I just feel a guy should not have to mess with anything for what they cost.
Wonder if us that have got 2013's coming will have to worry about it? We have already talked that there is possible changes to the engine. I'm interested in hearing from the motor guys on here. I'm sure someone will be tearing into one. If i need to turn it up, would be nice to have someone post a good step by step on it and maybe even a video too. Put it as a sticky, so it is easy for all to find. I've never done it before and just want to make sure I don't mess something up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed, these things a person should not have to worry about, however the past is haunting Polaris somewhat causing people to question oil consumption of these motors. I turned mine up 3 turns for peace of mind after some fellow SW's had figured their ratio was as low as 50:1. :face-icon-small-sho

lorne1176 · Aug 24, 2012

Here's another good thread that helped me with my decision to turn up my oil pump. Hope this helps.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275294

MotorMouth · Aug 24, 2012

Be careful guys, I am doing this now with my motor on the bench next to me. If you back the stock screw all the way out to get the scribes to come close, the top of the screw will almost rub the coolant line that connects throttle bodies. A longer screw, which is needed to get scribes aligned, will rub through the coolant line and that is no good.

MotorMouth · Aug 24, 2012

I seriously appologize for my last comment. The longer screw is not correct. I had another beer and looked at it. I will not run an adjuster screw at all this year. My oil pump arm is now bottomed to my throttle body sync. arm and short of filing down the both of them (which would gain some travel) I will not be able to align the marks. I know the most important thing is each machines individual consumption and the comfort level of the owner, but I am building a 12' 858 turbo and want plenty of oil.

hiwayman · Aug 24, 2012

I have an 011. First winter we made 1100 miles. Kept track of oil and gas use and sled used 73 to 1 ratio. had dealer turn up oil pump in spring. How he did this I'm not sure. Made 600 miles last winter and kept track of oil and gas use again. used oil at a 42 to 1 ratio. so there is a way to increase oil pump on the pro.

Zrider · Aug 24, 2012

hiwayman said:
I have an 011. First winter we made 1100 miles. Kept track of oil and gas use and sled used 73 to 1 ratio. had dealer turn up oil pump in spring. How he did this I'm not sure. Made 600 miles last winter and kept track of oil and gas use again. used oil at a 42 to 1 ratio. so there is a way to increase oil pump on the pro.

Would be nice if you could find out what he did as compared to what others have done on this thread. 42 to 1 sounds pretty damm good compared to 73 to 1.

gman086 · Aug 24, 2012

Okay, I'll give you something else to ponder. First season on my Pro was a nightmare to try and keep it cool in poor snow conditions and that was WITH scratchers down. By the end of the year I had my oil pump up the 3 turns and no change. Last year I added 0.5-1.0 oz of oil/gal of gas to the fuel tank. Temps dropped by 10 degrees in same conditions and I didn't have to shut her down once even during spring ice conditions. That tells me that turning up the oil pump doesn't do squat for WOT oil delivery but adding oil to the gas DOES and DOES reduce friction = lower riding temps. That alone should convince you that adding oil to the fuel tank is a good idea. I still have my pump turned up but the key for me was adding oil to the fuel tank. Holz, Carl's and FTX ALL told me to do the same. Oh, and one more thing... sure it would be great to "rely" on the manufacturer/dealer and warranty but that sure as hell isn't going to help me when I have to ride alone in the backcountry of the Cascades! I'll take a cooler/better running motor any day!

Have FUN!

G MAN

Oil pump adjustment.... revisited

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