Also, hook, are you changing timing or changing fueling at varying elevations?
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ALTITUDE AND BOOST CONTROLLERS DISCUSSION
- Thread starter hook
- Start date
I
The logs you posted show that Map was changing exactly like MH has said, you kept approximately the same boost pressure above atmosphere (psig) but your MAP (psia) is offset by the change in atmospheric pressure exactly as we'd expect from running off WG or an MBC. With any good standalone, you should be able to add an ECU controlled EBC quite easily and cheaply if you'd like.
S
I'm running an impulse at 1600 at home and 10000 out west. How much am I losing in change?
Can you elaborate on your question??
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H
He's probably asking how much horsepower is he giving up by not having an ebc. I'll ask that question also.
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H
Also, since I have shown my logs from vipec to show my map pressure, how much map pressure is your turbo setup run? Not gauge pressure, map pressure.
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HMM.
My personal sled is N.A.... I prefer it that way for now...
If evolution keeps moving along like it has been...however... I'll be there next season.
I think I'll see a low boost (approx 18 PSI MAP), simple, EABC, non intercooled basic system with an EFR turbo next season in kit form (this has an advanced internal WG) ... that's that one I'm holding out for... Unless someone comes out with a Garrett with such a light spool mass like the EFR's (half the weight of the same turbine even in Inconel)
I don't think any... your system is easy to 'bump up' with the twist of a knob.
From what I've seen the Impulse kit runs a manual threshold boost controller (BC)... so you can dial up the 'switch' pressure on your BC to compensate for the differential in pressure pipe/outlet... so that the WG provides consistent target boost level.
Most mechanical "T style' boost controllers ... by not activating the actuator until the set pressure is met... act like an on/off relay compared to a more variable input from boost ref on the charge tube. Still very simple, and will not start to bleed off pressure (AKA wastegate creep) slightly before the target setting is met.
There is actually a lot going on in the operation of a Wastegate, the spring, the charge pressure, WG-door/valve pressure differential, Spring pre-load (rod tension).... lots to wrap your head around. :juggle: :bowl::bowl::bowl:
This is why I've installed PSIa gauges in many of the sleds and cars that I've worked on. I feel it gives a more easy to understand 'number' that reflects what is really going in in the charge side of things...If you know that you want to have constistent power from the lot to the top... you can easily see your MAP pressure, and turn up the dial without guessing or 'pondering' what the typical PSIg type of 'boost gauge' is reading... just turn up or down your boost controller to get the MAP you need to make that power.
Barring higher Charge temps... which are either controlled with an intercooler, or just running a low-boost system that does not heat the air as much... keeping the Manifold pressure consistent is easy to monitor as you change elevations all things being equal.
From a previous post in this thread:
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419972
My personal sled is N.A.... I prefer it that way for now...
If evolution keeps moving along like it has been...however... I'll be there next season.
I think I'll see a low boost (approx 18 PSI MAP), simple, EABC, non intercooled basic system with an EFR turbo next season in kit form (this has an advanced internal WG) ... that's that one I'm holding out for... Unless someone comes out with a Garrett with such a light spool mass like the EFR's (half the weight of the same turbine even in Inconel)
I don't think any... your system is easy to 'bump up' with the twist of a knob.
From what I've seen the Impulse kit runs a manual threshold boost controller (BC)... so you can dial up the 'switch' pressure on your BC to compensate for the differential in pressure pipe/outlet... so that the WG provides consistent target boost level.
Most mechanical "T style' boost controllers ... by not activating the actuator until the set pressure is met... act like an on/off relay compared to a more variable input from boost ref on the charge tube. Still very simple, and will not start to bleed off pressure (AKA wastegate creep) slightly before the target setting is met.
There is actually a lot going on in the operation of a Wastegate, the spring, the charge pressure, WG-door/valve pressure differential, Spring pre-load (rod tension).... lots to wrap your head around. :juggle: :bowl::bowl::bowl:
This is why I've installed PSIa gauges in many of the sleds and cars that I've worked on. I feel it gives a more easy to understand 'number' that reflects what is really going in in the charge side of things...If you know that you want to have constistent power from the lot to the top... you can easily see your MAP pressure, and turn up the dial without guessing or 'pondering' what the typical PSIg type of 'boost gauge' is reading... just turn up or down your boost controller to get the MAP you need to make that power.
Barring higher Charge temps... which are either controlled with an intercooler, or just running a low-boost system that does not heat the air as much... keeping the Manifold pressure consistent is easy to monitor as you change elevations all things being equal.
From a previous post in this thread:
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419972
If I WERE wanting to monitor Boost on a sled-turbo-system with an "EBC" ... or even no EBC...
I'd want to monitor MAP ONLY because of the drastic changes in elevations that we operate our sleds in. I would want to know what the actual pressure in the system was... rather than trying to remember what the changes in elevation are doing to my readings and trying to work that out in my head. :face-icon-small-con
Something like the AEM 30-0309; which comes with it's own MAP-sensor and has Peak/recall as well as changeable warning alarms would be cool.
https://www.summitracing.com/nv/parts/avm-30-0309
The higher Manifold pressures you run... the more you will need to deal with things to keep bad things from happening... adjusting fuel curves, adding race fuel, adding complexity to the system etc.
For the amount of time I'd want to play north of 200hp... I'm not sure that I'd want that complexity or cost in equipment and operation
I had a good hour long conversation with Bryce at TurboPerformance last night... about this very thing... A high boost sled is a riot to drive... and that is what some people want... but a system that gives you a constant 190 hp or so is what most people need in context with the KISS principal from the viewpoint of ownership, fuss, and maintanence... I love seeing those high boost sleds work though, who doesn't... but they can be a true handful to keep working the way they need to. And YES, there are some of you 'turbo-heads' out there that can do it in their sleep... you are a rare breed, and I have tons of respect for you.
Here is a good graph that compares the operation of the same WG actuator with and without a mechanical boost controller.... (turbosmart has some really easy to understand presentations on their site, http://www.turbosmart.com.au/technical-articles)
For the amount of time I'd want to play north of 200hp... I'm not sure that I'd want that complexity or cost in equipment and operation
I had a good hour long conversation with Bryce at TurboPerformance last night... about this very thing... A high boost sled is a riot to drive... and that is what some people want... but a system that gives you a constant 190 hp or so is what most people need in context with the KISS principal from the viewpoint of ownership, fuss, and maintanence... I love seeing those high boost sleds work though, who doesn't... but they can be a true handful to keep working the way they need to. And YES, there are some of you 'turbo-heads' out there that can do it in their sleep... you are a rare breed, and I have tons of respect for you.
Here is a good graph that compares the operation of the same WG actuator with and without a mechanical boost controller.... (turbosmart has some really easy to understand presentations on their site, http://www.turbosmart.com.au/technical-articles)
F
Now on my third season with the impulse turbo kit on the Etec, it's pretty much been bullet proof, and my fifth season on a aero charger, it's been a learning curve..
Biggest down fall to aero is the fueling side, get it set and runs great, but change elevations, temps or boost and learn all over again on fueling..
Impulse no touch, no look just makes life easier, and when you can trust it, you just forget about it all together..
As for boost on the impulse I have maxed out of what I think the rods can hold (9lbs) with the turbo smart and never see the boost exceed that..
As for the the aero I always see a swing over the boost and then back down to desired.. I did snap a rod on my aero right after a boost increase and feel I exceeded max desired boost for a second, but just enought for the destruction
Talking and looking at redline performance setup they also now have there own fuel controller similar to impulse that corrects for temps, pressure, boost, etc..
I just had them put the g2 fuel controller on the aero this year for the same no touch compensation, we discussed the boost controller and decided to leave as is as he has this setup working fine on others, time will tell soon how it works out
Biggest down fall to aero is the fueling side, get it set and runs great, but change elevations, temps or boost and learn all over again on fueling..
Impulse no touch, no look just makes life easier, and when you can trust it, you just forget about it all together..
As for boost on the impulse I have maxed out of what I think the rods can hold (9lbs) with the turbo smart and never see the boost exceed that..
As for the the aero I always see a swing over the boost and then back down to desired.. I did snap a rod on my aero right after a boost increase and feel I exceeded max desired boost for a second, but just enought for the destruction
Talking and looking at redline performance setup they also now have there own fuel controller similar to impulse that corrects for temps, pressure, boost, etc..
I just had them put the g2 fuel controller on the aero this year for the same no touch compensation, we discussed the boost controller and decided to leave as is as he has this setup working fine on others, time will tell soon how it works out
H
I think summit x asked how much horsepower or what percentage is the loss without having the ebc. Either mountain horse can tell us or if anyone else has those numbers it would be great to hear. That would shine more light on this topic
Fredw- When you were talking to redline, what was discussed to make the decision to not install an ebc at this time? What type of ebc would you install if you do go that route?
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Fredw- When you were talking to redline, what was discussed to make the decision to not install an ebc at this time? What type of ebc would you install if you do go that route?
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Great Discussion(s) !!
Heres my opinion...
Not having an EBC should net you no loss so long as you are tuned for that altitude.
The manual boost control that I've seen on the Impulse would allow you to tweak on the fly.
If you are asking what is the HP drop from climbing from 1600 to 10000 feet elevation....and NOT touching anything.... depends lots of variables including boost levels and system setup... I'm sure Zeb would have a lot more accurate info for this. Are there some 'guidelines' to try to predict this to get a roundabout ballpark number... probably....but I don't have those... maybe someone else in the know can point us in the right direction (spaarky?)
Fred,
The Redline stuff looks pretty interesting... Bryce had good things to say about them... I hope the G2 makes the process of dialing in your sled easier. With the variable vane stuff on the Aero... I'm sure there is some translational effort.
I still have faith in the Aero stuff, IMO, one of the limiting factors in their older systems was the dobeck controller of the day (5 years ago??) so this may be the thing that transforms that ride.
http://www.redlineengineperformance.../redline_gen2_fuel_controller_bifold_full.pdf
We are only about 10 years into off the shelf availably of kits.... IMO... the progress and refinements are impressive.... all the things that add up to making these very user friendly systems, that are getting more affordable, are moving in the right direction.
Hope everyone is getting some snow.... Cheers !!!
.
Heres my opinion...
Not having an EBC should net you no loss so long as you are tuned for that altitude.
The manual boost control that I've seen on the Impulse would allow you to tweak on the fly.
If you are asking what is the HP drop from climbing from 1600 to 10000 feet elevation....and NOT touching anything.... depends lots of variables including boost levels and system setup... I'm sure Zeb would have a lot more accurate info for this. Are there some 'guidelines' to try to predict this to get a roundabout ballpark number... probably....but I don't have those... maybe someone else in the know can point us in the right direction (spaarky?)
Fred,
The Redline stuff looks pretty interesting... Bryce had good things to say about them... I hope the G2 makes the process of dialing in your sled easier. With the variable vane stuff on the Aero... I'm sure there is some translational effort.
I still have faith in the Aero stuff, IMO, one of the limiting factors in their older systems was the dobeck controller of the day (5 years ago??) so this may be the thing that transforms that ride.
http://www.redlineengineperformance.../redline_gen2_fuel_controller_bifold_full.pdf
We are only about 10 years into off the shelf availably of kits.... IMO... the progress and refinements are impressive.... all the things that add up to making these very user friendly systems, that are getting more affordable, are moving in the right direction.
Hope everyone is getting some snow.... Cheers !!!
.
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F
I don't know much about the EBC other than what I had seen on the boon dockers setup a few years back, some guys ranted about them and others cursed.. We just decided to go with what he has running on Other with similar setup BB and I like my old style controller
My aero kit was one of the first they released back in 2011 and it worked well, with dobec box and would probally still be running the same if I was stock, but now on a ported BB, it's defiantly different, and I want to be similar to what I have on the impulse.. Technology has been getting better
My aero kit was one of the first they released back in 2011 and it worked well, with dobec box and would probally still be running the same if I was stock, but now on a ported BB, it's defiantly different, and I want to be similar to what I have on the impulse.. Technology has been getting better
Exciting times for 2 stroke turbos... I remember not so long ago, when 2 stroke turbos were making the transition from carbureted motors to EFI motors and almost everyone said it just couldn't be done. Those were interesting times on SW with experts of the carbed turbos like Twister running dial-a-jets on his dash watching egt readings to tune his 700 Polaris aerocharged sled. I'll never forget the Cooke City ride when he absolutely crushed 4Zsnow who was running a tricked out ProX chassis with a big bore watercraft triple (Polaris triple cylinder jet ski bottom end with 800 twin poo cylinders on top) just across a snow laden lake. Those watercraft motors were absolutely killer back then and that trip really opened my eyes to what turbos could do. Now flash forward a few years (ok maybe more than a few) and we are riding EFI turbo sleds that we don't have to touch a thing on to run the same basic horsepower from sea level to 9000 feet. Crazy stuff. And if you are "in the know" with current technology you know that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg when it comes to turbo tech in the sled world.
Some of the first efi turbos were controlled by Dobeck controllers, and they really paved the way for where we are now. Now however, turbo tech from the automotive world is starting to spill over into our little niche market and we are seeing some really impressive things come about. But I digress, back to altitude and boost controllers...
For all practical purposes, an electronic boost controller, and a manual boost controller, do the exact same thing and will create the exact same horsepower. The ebc can be tuned to bring the target boost on quicker and reduce the amount of boost spike if it is tuned and set correctly. Honestly though, in real world application on the snow with the sled motors we are running today, I would bet a thousand dollars that no one could really tell the difference in spool up time between a manual and a correctly tuned electric boost controller. That graph is pretty MH (I realize it's a TS manual), but I've ran an AEM truboost electronic controller (I can snap a pic of it on my shelf if you want) that was dialed perfectly and the difference between it and a homemade boost controller Silber built was absolutely nill other than the truboost was 100 times more complicated to operate. You can stare at graphs and charts all day but it really means nothing until it's on the snow and you're asking it to perform a certain way... and it delivers.
I'm very interested to hear how the G2 performs on your BB Aero sled Fred. Especially with really no tuning prior to running it. I would think that just slapping a tuner on and giving it a go would spell disaster, but I also know we aren't just dealing with first gen Dobeck and Boondocker controllers anymore. The simple fact is if you feed these new controllers enough information (boost psi, intake air temp, atmospheric pressure and temperature, throttle position, rpm, injector pulse width, air fuel ratio, etc.) that it can do it all for you. Like I said before, it's a great time for 2 stroke turbos.
Just to prove to you guys that I really do know a thing or two about turbos, I just spent the weekend in AZ playing a little golf and riding a turbo Harley I just had finished... I'll skip all the gritty details but what I can tell you is this, a mostly carbon fiber Harley Road King running a 143" motor and 7 lbs of intercooled boost that is laying down roughly 250 hp and about the same ftlbs of torque to the rear wheel is straight up frightening. And I loved every minute of it. Boost on!!
Some of the first efi turbos were controlled by Dobeck controllers, and they really paved the way for where we are now. Now however, turbo tech from the automotive world is starting to spill over into our little niche market and we are seeing some really impressive things come about. But I digress, back to altitude and boost controllers...
For all practical purposes, an electronic boost controller, and a manual boost controller, do the exact same thing and will create the exact same horsepower. The ebc can be tuned to bring the target boost on quicker and reduce the amount of boost spike if it is tuned and set correctly. Honestly though, in real world application on the snow with the sled motors we are running today, I would bet a thousand dollars that no one could really tell the difference in spool up time between a manual and a correctly tuned electric boost controller. That graph is pretty MH (I realize it's a TS manual), but I've ran an AEM truboost electronic controller (I can snap a pic of it on my shelf if you want) that was dialed perfectly and the difference between it and a homemade boost controller Silber built was absolutely nill other than the truboost was 100 times more complicated to operate. You can stare at graphs and charts all day but it really means nothing until it's on the snow and you're asking it to perform a certain way... and it delivers.
I'm very interested to hear how the G2 performs on your BB Aero sled Fred. Especially with really no tuning prior to running it. I would think that just slapping a tuner on and giving it a go would spell disaster, but I also know we aren't just dealing with first gen Dobeck and Boondocker controllers anymore. The simple fact is if you feed these new controllers enough information (boost psi, intake air temp, atmospheric pressure and temperature, throttle position, rpm, injector pulse width, air fuel ratio, etc.) that it can do it all for you. Like I said before, it's a great time for 2 stroke turbos.
Just to prove to you guys that I really do know a thing or two about turbos, I just spent the weekend in AZ playing a little golf and riding a turbo Harley I just had finished... I'll skip all the gritty details but what I can tell you is this, a mostly carbon fiber Harley Road King running a 143" motor and 7 lbs of intercooled boost that is laying down roughly 250 hp and about the same ftlbs of torque to the rear wheel is straight up frightening. And I loved every minute of it. Boost on!!
More fodder for conversation
Hobbes,
Good discussion and I truly like and respect your posts on these forums.
You are an asset here.
You seem 'put off' a little with my presentation here (maybe not)... All I'm doing is adding my OPINION... just like you are adding your OPINON.... I have no intention of 'talking down' anyones kit.
I know you run and support the Impulse turbos, which are, by the accounts of customers on here like you, amazing kits.
That's a beautiful scoot !
Those boards look like they'd be good on your sled too! :face-icon-small-win
Yea... Lynn's tripple was crazy impressive on the snow... those triples at full song make a beautiful noise.
I hear what you are saying and agree with you for the most part... I believe we are actually on the same page.
I have personally installed, tuned and repaired a couple of Turbo'd sleds where we added a mechanical boost controller and it changed the way the sled performed and rode... it went from spongy to much crisper, at the same boost levels, with the addition of the mechanical boost controller alone. Flat out better throttle response from mid to WOT and better ride-ability. This is why I cut/pasted the graph that compared the two, to show, graphically, what I experienced in real life ....the graph shows the actuator operating off of charge pressure directly, and the same actuator working off of a threshold-mechanical boost controller. Will this be true on all kits??... depends on the kit/components and how well it is setup, both by the mfg and the installer.
This is why, I believe, that Impulse recommends a boost controller for their XM turbo kits on their website, and installs them on their 850 kits that Zeb has posted up on the forums here.
AND yes... TS does make pretty graphs
As you allude to in your post, the advances in turbos and engines are making turbo sleds much better/easier to own and operate.
The early days of "kit" turbos for the masses... just 10 years ago... had much of the same equipment on them as they do today, BOV's (or not), boost reference WG actuators, etc etc...
The evolution of the turbo kits, with Ball bearing center sections, no need for rising rate FPR's etc etc has transformed the way these sleds ride.
The evolution of turbo kits... both in equipment and how well they are understood by the mfgs/installers/owners is what is making them much easier to ride & own... and giving them flexibility to deliver this in greatly varying conditions.
Sure, you can get a mechanically controlled sled to work VERY well... especially with these benefits of evolution and kit builder experience improving.
I also agree with Hobbes comment for the most part.
Where I differ... How will that power be delivered in the operation of the sled in a very broad variety of conditions. It will not be the "exact same thing" IMO since HP 'levels' are not my only aspects that I enjoy in a Turbo system for sleds.
I've also helped install and rode a few years old turbo-kit'd sled with a modern EABC added to it... a basic non BB 2860 turbo system... We removed the EABC and went back to stock for the same reasons that you quoted... because he didn't notice much difference... the turbo-systems that the EABC was controlling was less than ideal in the first place 'back in the day'... so the additional dimensionality of control didn't overcome the limitations of the equipment in a significant way for the owner.. and he didn't mind turning up the boost knob a bit at elevation (btw... a '5 lb kit').... so he removed it and sold it. (He's now on a new AXYS with an EABC-turbo-kit and loves it BTW)
That very same EABC was bought and moved onto another sled with a different setup/turbo and worked flawlessly without touching it after it was tuned, improving the experience of the owner.
I've ridden non-BOV, internal wastegate sleds with springs for WG-controllers and no EABC perform as well as a full compliment EABC equipped, external-wastegated, BOV equipped, billet and stainless turbo sled...and vice-versa... It's all in the mix. :juggle:
In that same breath however... the evolution of turbo systems and applications of new tech and/or affordable tech can benefit a turbo sled owner greatly.
IMO, the EABC's today are not complex and are much simpler & effective compared to older systems and are integrated into the systems that choose to offer them (I believe this is BD and MPI today).
All of this 'new' stuff... Cermaic BB center sections, ultra low mass Titanium turbines, Inconel turbines, new oiling systems, billet custom tailored Compressor wheels, custom exhaust housings, properly sized fast acting waste gate controllers, auxiliary injectors, ability to 'hack' the stock ECU to work well with the turbo and factory exhaust valves, etc etc...
Heck... look at engine controls these days... sure, a pressure driven exhaust valve actuator works pretty darn well... but show me a top 800 class sled that still runs one... or runs better with the old school pressure driven system ??
Just like the electric-servo driven exhaust valves have added dimensionality and improved control with all of the current 800 2-stroke offerings.... I believe that EABC will do the same for the turbo systems... and electric-servo controlled WG's and BOV's, IMO, are not to far away from our systems either... a simple and reliable device that will make all pressure actuated WG's obsolete on the best running kits... AND be more reliable to use.
In this day/age of ultra low spool mass, controlling charge pressure with a BOV is wasting efficiency an increasing pressure recovery rate. On a low volume charge-tract system... like what is becoming more popular on todays sled turbo-kits... faster decel/accel of the spool gives excellent control of the performance without wasting that energy through the BOV. Faster WG operation will only enhance this aspect. s
Just look at the pressure control and recovery rates of new turbos with ultra-light spool assemblies... amazing IMO.... And, NO, I'm not saying that a BOV is not needed...I am saying that BOV duty can be lowered.
Working against the turbine by venting excess charge is not necessary or good to get excellent performance IMO... again, evolution.
The electric-servo WG actuators from Mahle, Denso and Delphi are already making their way into the auto market... not long before we see them here IMO.
I believe that these new EABC's will soon be on most sled-turbo kits and be affordable and even more reliable.
I listen when people say "Adding an EABC will make my sled potentially less reliable... adding one more thing to the system"... Many owners said this very same thing when skidoo went to DI and eRAVE's... saying that they will not give up their carb'd sleds because of it. :ballchain:
On our already electronically operated sleds.... Integrating INTO that engine package with an electronically controlled turbo, to me, just flat out makes sense.... and can make things simpler and more reliable than all the hoses, springs and dashpots in our current systems. I'll bet FBW throttles are not far off on our sleds.
I agree with Hobbes... I don't think that there will be much in terms of improving max-hp output of the turbo kits because of 'evolution'... BUT...I DO believe that ease-of-install, cost, ride-ability function, reliability, longevity (lots of ity's, I know)... and overall customer satisfaction, fuel efficiency, and flexibility (without rider adjustment) ARE what will be improved through evolution of systems in the very near future.
IMO, the closer we can get a sled with a turbo to act like it doesn't have one, except for better power, the better we as riders/owners are... and evolution IS bringing us closer.
Lets see what this season brings :face-icon-small-ton
Exciting times indeed !
eace:
(Not exciting BTW here... Raining at 7500'....ARGH)
.
Hobbes,
Good discussion and I truly like and respect your posts on these forums.
You are an asset here.
You seem 'put off' a little with my presentation here (maybe not)... All I'm doing is adding my OPINION... just like you are adding your OPINON.... I have no intention of 'talking down' anyones kit.
I know you run and support the Impulse turbos, which are, by the accounts of customers on here like you, amazing kits.
That's a beautiful scoot !
Those boards look like they'd be good on your sled too! :face-icon-small-win
Yea... Lynn's tripple was crazy impressive on the snow... those triples at full song make a beautiful noise.
I hear what you are saying and agree with you for the most part... I believe we are actually on the same page.
I have personally installed, tuned and repaired a couple of Turbo'd sleds where we added a mechanical boost controller and it changed the way the sled performed and rode... it went from spongy to much crisper, at the same boost levels, with the addition of the mechanical boost controller alone. Flat out better throttle response from mid to WOT and better ride-ability. This is why I cut/pasted the graph that compared the two, to show, graphically, what I experienced in real life ....the graph shows the actuator operating off of charge pressure directly, and the same actuator working off of a threshold-mechanical boost controller. Will this be true on all kits??... depends on the kit/components and how well it is setup, both by the mfg and the installer.
This is why, I believe, that Impulse recommends a boost controller for their XM turbo kits on their website, and installs them on their 850 kits that Zeb has posted up on the forums here.
AND yes... TS does make pretty graphs
As you allude to in your post, the advances in turbos and engines are making turbo sleds much better/easier to own and operate.
The early days of "kit" turbos for the masses... just 10 years ago... had much of the same equipment on them as they do today, BOV's (or not), boost reference WG actuators, etc etc...
The evolution of the turbo kits, with Ball bearing center sections, no need for rising rate FPR's etc etc has transformed the way these sleds ride.
The evolution of turbo kits... both in equipment and how well they are understood by the mfgs/installers/owners is what is making them much easier to ride & own... and giving them flexibility to deliver this in greatly varying conditions.
Sure, you can get a mechanically controlled sled to work VERY well... especially with these benefits of evolution and kit builder experience improving.
I also agree with Hobbes comment for the most part.
Where I differ... How will that power be delivered in the operation of the sled in a very broad variety of conditions. It will not be the "exact same thing" IMO since HP 'levels' are not my only aspects that I enjoy in a Turbo system for sleds.
I've also helped install and rode a few years old turbo-kit'd sled with a modern EABC added to it... a basic non BB 2860 turbo system... We removed the EABC and went back to stock for the same reasons that you quoted... because he didn't notice much difference... the turbo-systems that the EABC was controlling was less than ideal in the first place 'back in the day'... so the additional dimensionality of control didn't overcome the limitations of the equipment in a significant way for the owner.. and he didn't mind turning up the boost knob a bit at elevation (btw... a '5 lb kit').... so he removed it and sold it. (He's now on a new AXYS with an EABC-turbo-kit and loves it BTW)
That very same EABC was bought and moved onto another sled with a different setup/turbo and worked flawlessly without touching it after it was tuned, improving the experience of the owner.
I've ridden non-BOV, internal wastegate sleds with springs for WG-controllers and no EABC perform as well as a full compliment EABC equipped, external-wastegated, BOV equipped, billet and stainless turbo sled...and vice-versa... It's all in the mix. :juggle:
In that same breath however... the evolution of turbo systems and applications of new tech and/or affordable tech can benefit a turbo sled owner greatly.
IMO, the EABC's today are not complex and are much simpler & effective compared to older systems and are integrated into the systems that choose to offer them (I believe this is BD and MPI today).
All of this 'new' stuff... Cermaic BB center sections, ultra low mass Titanium turbines, Inconel turbines, new oiling systems, billet custom tailored Compressor wheels, custom exhaust housings, properly sized fast acting waste gate controllers, auxiliary injectors, ability to 'hack' the stock ECU to work well with the turbo and factory exhaust valves, etc etc...
Heck... look at engine controls these days... sure, a pressure driven exhaust valve actuator works pretty darn well... but show me a top 800 class sled that still runs one... or runs better with the old school pressure driven system ??
Just like the electric-servo driven exhaust valves have added dimensionality and improved control with all of the current 800 2-stroke offerings.... I believe that EABC will do the same for the turbo systems... and electric-servo controlled WG's and BOV's, IMO, are not to far away from our systems either... a simple and reliable device that will make all pressure actuated WG's obsolete on the best running kits... AND be more reliable to use.
In this day/age of ultra low spool mass, controlling charge pressure with a BOV is wasting efficiency an increasing pressure recovery rate. On a low volume charge-tract system... like what is becoming more popular on todays sled turbo-kits... faster decel/accel of the spool gives excellent control of the performance without wasting that energy through the BOV. Faster WG operation will only enhance this aspect. s
Just look at the pressure control and recovery rates of new turbos with ultra-light spool assemblies... amazing IMO.... And, NO, I'm not saying that a BOV is not needed...I am saying that BOV duty can be lowered.
Working against the turbine by venting excess charge is not necessary or good to get excellent performance IMO... again, evolution.
The electric-servo WG actuators from Mahle, Denso and Delphi are already making their way into the auto market... not long before we see them here IMO.
I believe that these new EABC's will soon be on most sled-turbo kits and be affordable and even more reliable.
I listen when people say "Adding an EABC will make my sled potentially less reliable... adding one more thing to the system"... Many owners said this very same thing when skidoo went to DI and eRAVE's... saying that they will not give up their carb'd sleds because of it. :ballchain:
On our already electronically operated sleds.... Integrating INTO that engine package with an electronically controlled turbo, to me, just flat out makes sense.... and can make things simpler and more reliable than all the hoses, springs and dashpots in our current systems. I'll bet FBW throttles are not far off on our sleds.
I agree with Hobbes... I don't think that there will be much in terms of improving max-hp output of the turbo kits because of 'evolution'... BUT...I DO believe that ease-of-install, cost, ride-ability function, reliability, longevity (lots of ity's, I know)... and overall customer satisfaction, fuel efficiency, and flexibility (without rider adjustment) ARE what will be improved through evolution of systems in the very near future.
IMO, the closer we can get a sled with a turbo to act like it doesn't have one, except for better power, the better we as riders/owners are... and evolution IS bringing us closer.
Lets see what this season brings :face-icon-small-ton
Exciting times indeed !
eace:(Not exciting BTW here... Raining at 7500'....ARGH)
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MH, I think you are taking my last post a bit personally. I was not arguing with you at all. Modern EABC's are coming to snowmobiles wether we like it or not. I was just saying that the ones kit builders are using now really don't translate a ton of advantage on the snow. It is coming however. All great points above, and I concur with it all. BTW, that Harley is running a Truboost EBC. And is all Fly By Wire.
Thanks Hobbes.
Heres more of my opinion.
I think we'll see some '3 lb' (17.7 PSI MAP) kits for sleds that will keep everyone grinning in the near future as well.
Those systems will have an EABC, and run very consistent MAP throughout the operation of that sled... in the trees, at sea level, at 12000 feet, in humid weather, in the spring and the middle of January... run on pump gas, and not need an intercooler or other major add ons IMO.
And that system NON adjustable from the mfg ta boot (better for most turbo owners IMO).
Imagine the low fuss of a turbo'd 850 eTec, at 17.7PSI-MAP ('3 lbs'), making 180 hp at 12,000 feet... where your non-turbo 850 buddies are only making 105 HP !! :face-icon-small-ton
Those two sleds that left the factory the same way... would be two completely different animals at elevation...completely.
Sure, a higher boost is fun... but the complexity, cost and fuss, to me, aren't worth the "my dad can beat up your dad" bragging rights.
On a high boost sled, small changes in conditions (elevation, Temp, fuel etc etc) are magnified in make big differences in sled operation... and must be dealth with more the higher you go with boost.
And if you are one of those rare riders that sleds like Mentaberry or Entz... go for the Big boost, intercooled, race gas sleds that rely on your knowledge of operating a high boost sled..... I will sincerely have fun watching you tear it up !!
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Heres more of my opinion.
I think we'll see some '3 lb' (17.7 PSI MAP) kits for sleds that will keep everyone grinning in the near future as well.
Those systems will have an EABC, and run very consistent MAP throughout the operation of that sled... in the trees, at sea level, at 12000 feet, in humid weather, in the spring and the middle of January... run on pump gas, and not need an intercooler or other major add ons IMO.
And that system NON adjustable from the mfg ta boot (better for most turbo owners IMO).
Imagine the low fuss of a turbo'd 850 eTec, at 17.7PSI-MAP ('3 lbs'), making 180 hp at 12,000 feet... where your non-turbo 850 buddies are only making 105 HP !! :face-icon-small-ton
Those two sleds that left the factory the same way... would be two completely different animals at elevation...completely.
Sure, a higher boost is fun... but the complexity, cost and fuss, to me, aren't worth the "my dad can beat up your dad" bragging rights.
On a high boost sled, small changes in conditions (elevation, Temp, fuel etc etc) are magnified in make big differences in sled operation... and must be dealth with more the higher you go with boost.
And if you are one of those rare riders that sleds like Mentaberry or Entz... go for the Big boost, intercooled, race gas sleds that rely on your knowledge of operating a high boost sled..... I will sincerely have fun watching you tear it up !!
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That's the biggest hurdle. Polaris kits are the closest to this, where companies are doing ECU reflashes with the same/different injectors and a 3 bar TMAP. These kits run awesome from what I've seen. No extra electrical boxes, wiring harnesses, cutting/splicing/replacing wiring, etc.
But there is currently no way of integrating electronic boost control, let alone electronic WG and BOV's into the factory hardware. Hopefully that changes in the future.
K
Good info here.
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An EBC could be integrated into the fuel controller that I am running now, I'm not going to disclose which controller I'm using yet as it's still in testing. However it's working very well so far, if I find that there is a significant loss in MAP at altitude I may try looking into integrating boost control. I never felt the need for it with the dobeck box but time will tell.
