Long Rod PRO Motor

skibreeze · May 17, 2012

hyperduc said:
Umm, it kinda does if those two injectors were the issues with the lean burndowns.

It kinda don't, when the piston and case skirts are still doing the same thing. :face-icon-small-con

RMK935VA · May 17, 2012

I am not buying this long rod motor stuff. Furthermore, the 12 has had a lot fewer problems overall than in previous years. I have a friend who has had multiple failures with Doos and Poos in earlier years including a grenaded 11 Pro and his 12 Pro did not have one problem all season. If the machine is going to break, he is the guy to do it and he couldn't find a weakness in his 12 Pro. I expect the 13 to be better yet. Save your money unless this motor from Indy Dan puts out a lot more ponies and torque. There is nothing substantive that is wrong with the current Liberty motors.

gman086 · May 17, 2012

Here's an idea... how about Dan and Kelsey quit bickering and do a joint venture together? Then I would be buying, NO QUESTION!!!

Have FUN!

G MAN

Teth-Air · May 17, 2012

hyperduc said:
Sooooo.

I mean is there really a need for a "fix", what are the actual failure rates across all of the engines produced, has it been exaggerated by a few pissed of people with access to a forum, is the problem much bigger than it should be so someone can sell a fix to a problem that doesn't really exist?

On one of these forums there is a poll and 10% responded that they had major engine failure on a Pro. Is that too high for a 2 stroke in less than 2 years?? Maybe a bit IMHO.

edavis0202 · May 17, 2012

RMK935VA said:
I am not buying this long rod motor stuff. Furthermore, the 12 has had a lot fewer problems overall than in previous years. I have a friend who has had multiple failures with Doos and Poos in earlier years including a grenaded 11 Pro and his 12 Pro did not have one problem all season. If the machine is going to break, he is the guy to do it and he couldn't find a weakness in his 12 Pro. I expect the 13 to be better yet. Save your money unless this motor from Indy Dan puts out a lot more ponies and torque. There is nothing substantive that is wrong with the current Liberty motors.

I talked to Dan about this kit last night and he said run the thing for 2000-3000miles and once it starts losing power then contact him for the kit.

And the 12’ got thicker cylinder skirts…the 13’s will too…

This isn’t a matter of Dan trying to promote a product that isn’t helping you, its about when it’s time for an overhaul then consider giving him a call…some people trade every year, some people put 3000miles a year on their sleds, so for those who want to keep a nice well maintained engine this kits appeals.

Let’s not knock someone for trying to put out a solid product and willing to back it up. Everyone wants more power, but who wants to risk break downs when you’re 100 miles away from the trailer???

RKT · May 17, 2012

gman086 said:
Here's an idea... how about Dan and Kelsey quit bickering and do a joint venture together? Then I would be buying, NO QUESTION!!!

Have FUN!

G MAN

Nobody is bickering...

We have an engine with a rod ratio that falls well into the recommended specs based on engine design literature and experience.

We have an identical bore and stroke engine in the Arctic Cat 800 that has a LESSER rod ratio and exhibits no problems/failures.

YET.. for some reason there exists a rod ratio design flaw on the Polaris 800 and not the Cat 800 even though the rod ratio fall iinto engine design criteria/specs..

So, I am not sure how and why we have this notion that there is a rod ratio problem with this engine??

This is what I am asking??

WHY Do we have a rod ratio problem.

Now, there is no doubt that a longer rod WILL lessen side loading on ANY engine.. but making a "kit" that lessens side loading is one thing while claiming that the engine is flawed due to the rod ratio spec is something quite different.

So, again, I ask the questions:

1)If this motor is so broken and can not be fixed by changing some KNOWN internal shortcomings and requires a complete reworking of the crank and cylinder.. then why is there not 100% failure rate?

2)Why is the CAT rod ratio (which is actually worse than the Polaris) Fine but Polaris Rod ratio is totally wrong? Same Bore, same Stroke, Polaris has the BETTER rod ratio, yet, there is a problem with one and not the other..

Now, if you talk about cylinder and piston design differences, then that is just that.. cylinder and piston design differences.. NOT ROD RATIO differences... So, is there a rod ratio problem OR a cylinder and/or piston design issue?

Anybody care to chime in??

I have also heard of this lack of exhaust port cooling "issue".. Not sure where that comes from either...

The Pro cylinders show equal or more exhaust cooling surface area than the Cat or the DOO (got them all here).. Yet there is the rumor out there that this area is lacking.. Curious as to where this came from as well??

Everybody needs to be cautious when reading public forums.. Rumors can turn into fact in no time ..

And just because somebody "claims" that there is "X" problem does NOT make it a fact.. And , yes, that goes for me as well..

This is why I am ASKING the questions... Just looking for the facts that back up the claims.. Anybody have any real data that backs up these claims?

Just asking..

FCR112 · May 17, 2012

One thing that is very clear is that Indy Dan is offering a robust warranty on his fix while RKT does not.

snowmobiler · May 17, 2012

reputation and it comes with a warranty is all the facts i would need.i couldnt afford to ride used pro when new engines are 5?k.

Brett Slagle · May 17, 2012

I don't own a Pro or Dragon (because of the motors), but can say that Dan is a top notch motor builder. I send my motors to him because I trust him and his superior equipment. I log a bunch of mountain miles each year and have never had a failure in a powerplant that he built/rebuilt. From the Polaris 800 failures I have read about on the forum, getting a well built motor in my Pro would be my first modification. Some like to add mods with their money, I like to add reliability with mine.

Norway · May 17, 2012

RKT said:
So, again, I ask the questions:

1)If this motor is so broken and can not be fixed by changing some KNOWN internal shortcomings and requires a complete reworking of the crank and cylinder.. then why is there not 100% failure rate?

2)Why is the CAT rod ratio (which is actually worse than the Polaris) Fine but Polaris Rod ratio is totally wrong? Same Bore, same Stroke, Polaris has the BETTER rod ratio, yet, there is a problem with one and not the other..

Now, if you talk about cylinder and piston design differences, then that is just that.. cylinder and piston design differences.. NOT ROD RATIO differences... So, is there a rod ratio problem OR a cylinder and/or piston design issue?

Everybody needs to be cautious when reading public forums.. Rumors can turn into fact in no time ..

Just asking..

1) On this I'm curious to ask you if, in your experience, there is a variable/inconsistent bore size on pro 800 cylinders. Possibly explaining why some people log 3000 trouble-free miles while others loose a skirt (piston or cylinder) after less than 600 miles?

2) Beefier parts has been mentioned numerous times on this forum. Having seen the internals of cats 800, do you disagree?

I'll stay out of the rod-ratio problem/no problem discussion, but I do have a take on it from a customer POV:

- it is beyond speculation that a better rod-ratio will be kinder to cylinder and piston.
- the report of two polaris 600/800 conversions where the rod length + spacer was the only differnece and the longer rod pulled the short by 3 sled lengths out of the hole.

Sounds interesting to me.

And don't forget that Dan has better pistons + cylinder mods in his offerings as well.

AKSNOWRIDER · May 17, 2012

RKT said:
Nobody is bickering...

So, again, I ask the questions:

1)If this motor is so broken and can not be fixed by changing some KNOWN internal shortcomings and requires a complete reworking of the crank and cylinder.. then why is there not 100% failure rate?

2)Why is the CAT rod ratio (which is actually worse than the Polaris) Fine but Polaris Rod ratio is totally wrong? Same Bore, same Stroke, Polaris has the BETTER rod ratio, yet, there is a problem with one and not the other..

Now, if you talk about cylinder and piston design differences, then that is just that.. cylinder and piston design differences.. NOT ROD RATIO differences... So, is there a rod ratio problem OR a cylinder and/or piston design issue? [QOUTE]

I will answer it for you kelsey...
1) the reason there isnt a 100% failure rate is simple..every peice put in these motors can vary slightly on dimensions from core shift on cast parts like cylinders(leaving less material support in critical areas after machining) to how close to spec each cylinder is honed after nicasil coating, to impurities in the pour, to assembly error..the list is long and I would suspect more times then not it is a combo of issues vrs just one...
2) the reason this motor has an issue with skirts(piston and cylinder) vrs other motors(IE cat or doo) is all of the above, as well as other things such as case deck height(a lower/higher deck height will affect cylinder loading with the same rod ratio), pin placement, piston material, piston design, piston weight, port designs(a large exhaust port can allow the piston to **** over more thus loading intake skirts more) and the compactness of this motor(both size and weight), polaris didnt put as much material in this motor as other motors have..again..it affects rigidity and allows the motor to flex more which changes clearences....
now why do so many feel a longer rod fixes it..simple..changes the load on both the piston and the cylinder allowing the stock setup to work..now can you do this other ways..sure..but just making a new ,tighter fitting piston most likely will not provide a long term fix(it may add a few more miles before failure)and will most likely lead to scuffing pistons(polaris tried this on the dragons..thats why we have such a loose piston fit on this motor ), it can be fixed with out changing rod ratios..by putting cylinders on it that are strong enough to hold their shape when combined with a slightly tighter piston..(carls fix using crankshop cylinders) or mnt teks fix it kit which utilizes a base shim and a taller piston(from the dome of the piston to the wristpin) which changes where the cylinder& piston are seeing the load and so far is working.

Honestly Kelsey, if you are so sure your setup fixes the issues..put a warranty out there with it..(obviously warranty voided for anything related to a lean out, deto and such),since you are doing replated cylinders(to your spec) and a custom piston there is no reason that you shouldnt have confidence in every peice that you ship out(maybe the install worries you? why not make it required for warranty that a polaris dealer or a certified shop has to do the install ? thats my $.02 on it anyway...

REDLINEBILL · May 17, 2012

Are you using a piston with a longer skirt Dan? (unlike the kits with spacers, that can only lengthen the piston from the pin up)

indydan · May 17, 2012

This is a great Thread !!

I am a busy person and I do not have time to monitor this forum, I have had a few phone calls telling me I need to check out whats going on.

I respect the comments & I thank those who have used my services, And those who will in the future.

I have not read this thread I skimmed it and saw that RKT is having a mild heart attack on my behalf.

Heres what I have to say and then I am back to my Life & my business working on the Polaris stuff I love to the core ( Just bought a new Victory and I absolutely LOVE IT !! )

Ok back to what I want to say in closing and I will let this thread go for all its worth.

First I am a Polaris guy to the absolute core !! And Polaris is what I do and will always do.

RKT has been a Ski Doo Arctic cat man and that use to be the sh!t, Now he finds the PRO Chassis to be the King of Mountain sleds at this moment in time. and he feels he has missed the boat because many are junping ship because the sled is that good.

The Dragon Motor & the PRO motor are one in the same other then ( stay currect upgrades ) The cranks are part for part interchangable from 08 to 2013. What we have here is a mad scramble to catch up.

In parting I say - Good Luck RKT with your pistons.

I have a 3 and a 5 year warranty option and I have the means to back it.
I have been offering 3 to 5 year warranties sense 2003 and you can search the internet and you will not find a customer of mine that will say I have not built a great product & back it to the fullest extent.

Thank you everyone.

Dan

TRS · May 17, 2012

Engineers and computer designs have been proven wrong before.:face-icon-small-win(Polaris)

I am a firm believer the 132mm rod is to short. I will test the long rod, using the 136mm rod/shim kit and OEM pistons and cylinders.
I will use the failure rate of my past Small Block 800's(08,09,11,12) as a bench mark. To this date max miles before engine failure, 1448.

There are two companies now offering a long rod upgrade. Brad and Dan.

diamonddave · May 17, 2012

Keep up the good work Dan.

Btw, the mild heart attack line was perfect. If you're going to step into the Lions den, be prepared for what follows.

AKSNOWRIDER · May 17, 2012

REDLINEBILL said:
Are you using a piston with a longer skirt Dan? (unlike the kits with spacers, that can only lengthen the piston from the pin up)

Not really any need for a longer skirt with either a longer rod or different cylinders that are thicker in the skirt area...stock polaris piston skirt length is pretty good if the clearences are reasonable and the side loads are within reason...

Super Sled · May 17, 2012

skibreeze said:
It kinda don't, when the piston and case skirts are still doing the same thing. :face-icon-small-con

Yep

1200psi · May 17, 2012

Btw, the mild heart attack line was perfect. If you're going to step into the Lions den, be prepared for what follows.[/QUOTE]

That is great could'nt be more true . :face-icon-small-coo:face-icon-small-coo:face-icon-small-coo

indydan · May 17, 2012

REDLINEBILL said:
Are you using a piston with a longer skirt Dan? (unlike the kits with spacers, that can only lengthen the piston from the pin up)

Yes REDLINEBILL - What AKSNOWRIDER said would be correct.

I run a spacer to match longer Rod.

Dan

Spaarky · May 17, 2012

I have not read this thread I skimmed it and saw that RKT is having a mild heart attack on my behalf.

I wouldnt worry about it Danno, he rides sitting down, I think that says it all.

I cant wait till the school year is over so all the kids get off the net. Then you have a DooDoo racer who thinks he knows Polaris motors beter... WOW. Its too bad this thread got poluted... :face-icon-small-con

Its seems to me Dan has answered all these questions before. Check the thread in the IQ section.

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